Mini 1601: B_E's Mind Mafia ABANDIFIED

[Csareo]

VOTE: Vote riddleton
Also not random

[Csareo]

Random votes aren't truly random. Unless you use this site....
http://www.random.org/
... you likely selected a person.

[Csareo]

@riddle, I wouldn't overthink it. I interpreted it as an inside joke.

[Csareo]

@Fellow townies, I play at different sites, so I use different terms and play than most of you. Three things you must know about me......

1. My meta is very unique, and many people interpret it as being scum. This leads me to being lynched a lot when playing with new people.
2. I hate playing in slow games. I don't multi quote, and I may put in a fluff post now and then just to stir up conversation. I often will play scum/stupid to stir reactions out of people.
3. I will NOT share my other games. I want my meta to be more flexible and unknown here. If I am asked for my previous games, I will refuse!

Besides that, I am eager to play with you guy's, so let's fuck up some scum!

[Csareo]

So you're saying right now "If I look really scummy it's because I'm actually town". Right.

VOTE: Csareo

That's not what I'm saying at all. I have a mafia meta as well.
Try to take my words at face value mate

[Csareo]

Your post was awful. Why would a townsperson come along D1 and say "Oh, by the way I look really scummy. But don't vote me"

I'll let you infer what you want from my post.
Take what I say at face value. My town meta looks scummy to "new" players.
Anyways, I've said what I have to say, and you've said what you have to say.
Moving on...

[Csareo]

Not RVS vote.

Unvote btw

[Csareo]

PE1:Unvote Albert btw
Or your votes wont count

[Csareo]

My town meta looks scummy to "new" players.

I am not a new player. I've likely being playing mafia longer than you have. I just don't like your playstyle.

New players to me that is.
I have trouble believing that you already know my playstyle :/

[Csareo]

@riddleton - How do you know you "likely" played more games than me? That seems like a weird thing to infer.

[Csareo]

I have trouble believing that you already know my playstyle :/

You said that you "often will play scum/stupid to stir reactions out of people.".
I'm not against people having their own quirks -- I have them too -- but I think that particular "strategy" is detrimental to the town. I don't like that. I think that's only going to make you more likely to get lynched and less likely to get any information. But each to their own.

Oh, don't worry, it isn't an "every other post" strategy of mine.
Often scum will show their true colors when you give them a platform to go off of.

Anyways, I'm sure there is a forum where we can talk mafia theory. Let's focus on RVS for now. We don't want to clog the forum.

[Csareo]

things you must know about me......

1. My meta is very unique

One thing you must know about me is that I policy lynch people who use phrases like "very unique"

Why?

[Csareo]

This.

Thank you for your lesson, beloved grammar nazi.

[Csareo]

Joining on one of the two wagons (move faster game). Don't worry, I randomized it.
VOTE: hephaestus

[Csareo]

VOTE: NicCage

Sheeping ABR as a cover for my real reason for voting.

What? Can you clarify what was said in the above sentence?

[Csareo]

Sheeping ABR as a cover for my real reason for voting.

What is your real reason for voting? Sorry, but you're leaving me very confused.
This sentence is confusing and makes little sense.

[Csareo]

UNVOTE: Hep
VOTE: Aegor]
Dude, don't say something extremely vague and suspicious, and ignore people when you're asked to clarify.
Anti town as shit itself.

[Csareo]

UNVOTE: Hep
VOTE: Aegor]
Dude, don't say something extremely vague and suspicious, and ignore people when you're asked to clarify.
Anti town as shit itself.

Did you just start a healthy RVS wagon and then as soon as it started to build up some momentum, deliberately jump off before it put its target under pressure? UNVOTE: VOTE: Csareo

Mate, we use RVS to stir discussion.
RVS ends as soon as discussion begins, and scum hunting can start.
I would rather pressure Aegor into telling me what his sentence started.
A couple questions come to mind...

1. Why did you say I started the wagon? I hardly would count that as starting a wagon.
2. Why was the wagon healthy?
3. What information did you expect him to give? RVS isn't about having other players out information, rather than stirring discussion in the hopes of scum tells.
4. If the wagon was healthy, why weren't you on it?

@Townies, what are your thoughts on post #38? Am I overthinking this?

[Csareo]

PE edit: I would rather pressure Aegor into telling me what he meant in post #38

[Csareo]

UNVOTE: Hep
VOTE: Aegor]
Dude, don't say something extremely vague and suspicious, and ignore people when you're asked to clarify.
Anti town as shit itself.

Did you just start a healthy RVS wagon and then as soon as it started to build up some momentum, deliberately jump off before it put its target under pressure? UNVOTE: VOTE: Csareo

Mate, we use RVS to stir discussion.
RVS ends as soon as discussion begins, and scum hunting can start.
I would rather pressure Aegor into telling me what his sentence started.
A couple questions come to mind...

1. Why did you say I started the wagon? I hardly would count that as starting a wagon.
2. Why was the wagon healthy?
3. What information did you expect him to give? RVS isn't about having other players out information, rather than stirring discussion in the hopes of scum tells.
4. If the wagon was healthy, why weren't you on it?

@Townies, what are your thoughts on post #38? Am I overthinking this?

OK I think scumhunting just started. The whole point of the RVS is that nobody responds to anything unless a few votes are thrown around. And it's much better to have them focused in a few directions rather than flat across the board. Early wagons are healthy. I don't think I ever suggested that I wanted the wagonee to spew game information, nor that everyone in the game should be on it, so I'm not sure why you're misrepresenting in that way, but your post gave the impression to me that you'd found some excuse to sneak off from a wagon before it bore any fruit or caused any discomfort for its target, and I think it's worth calling you on it. If one of you flips scum, I will be taking long looks at the other.

Couple of questions I have to ask, specifically because of this post...

1. Nobody responds to anything until a couple of votes are thrown around? RVS in reality is quite useless, and really hurts ACTUAL scum hunting. While it does stir discussion, the real point of having a random voting stage, a simple introduction fits the bill just as easily. What I'm wondering, is why you make this contradiction.
First you stated that we were waiting for information, now you're saying nobody should talk for the first couple of votes? Clarify or admit to contradiction, but there is something wrong in those two posts.

2. Sorry, I shouldn't of straw manned you. That is on me, but in post #45, you say "before he's put under pressure". What do you expect to result from that pressure?

3. Okay, there is a LOT wrong with your logic. You are stating pretty clearly, that it looks like my post was in protection of hep. This is not the case. For several reasons.........
- If I didn't want momentum on Hep, I wouldn't of pressured him in the first place
- I had a legitimate reason to vote for aegor. He refused to answer a simple question. That is known as scum hunting, and I would rather cast a strategic scum hunting vote vs a random one
- I gave a subtle attempt to vote. I didn't switch votes immediately, giving Aegor time to respond.

4. Hopefully we have now established that you pulled a scum tell out of thin air, so let's move on to the game. Describe your thoughts on the interaction that took place in posts #38=#42
That seems to be the blind spot in your case. You haven't acknowledged the other side of coin. Narrow minded thinking is the downfall of town.

[Csareo]

I would still like to hear about your suggestion that there were two RVS wagons. Did you really think there were two or were you playing "scum/stupid"?

One on me and one on you.
1 +1 = 2
Math is fun, isn't it?

Spoiler:

I wasn't trying to make to much of post #38, and in all honesty, I thought he was joking.
Can you tell me why he didn't respond though?
Voting simply equated to pressure to explain his post. I think it was silly that I was "told" by switching my vote.
The whole reasoning for that conversation was a bit misguided. I'm not sure what reaction was being looked for.

What are you thinking? Why do you think scum would say something like that, if they had an ulterior motive for voting, rather than just pretending it's an RVS vote?

Can you show me where I said it was an RVS vote? It was a thought out vote for Aegor to clarify.
I am asking what you think of his premature "no".

Then why did you participate?

The alternatives only work if others agree to them. A non-participant in RVS is pretty anti-town as well.

[Csareo]

Hep, did you even read the previous posts? It wasn't a suggestion that there were two wagons.
It is a fact. Unless 3 votes don't constitute a wagon. Can I also infer about this post?

You think dybeck pulled a scum tell out of thin air, but you seem pretty convinced he's town. Am I wrong? Or do you already have a read on him?

- What made you think I thought he was town? Please answer ASAP.
- You are wrong. I don't have reads on any players yet. To soon and early into the game. Some people haven't posted.

[Csareo]

Joining on one of the two wagons (move faster game). Don't worry, I randomized it.
VOTE: hephaestus

There was one vote on you at this point

This comment came when there was three votes on me, so..........

VOTE: Csareo

1=1

Yay maths, amirite?

Okay, well this is odd reasoning.
Yes, at one point there was one vote on me, but that was way before this discussion started.
Relevance? Because post #50 came once I had 3 votes on the Csar.

Can
you show me where I said it was an RVS vote? It was a thought out vote for Aegor to clarify.

I was talking about Aegor's vote. I'm getting the feeling you're the one who isn't reading.

You quoted me, addressing me. You should do one of two things when talking about Aegor.....
- SAY you're talking about Aegor
- Use an @Aegor

I reread post #50, and am very confused by the above quote. Let's just move on and not clog the forum, unless you have something left to say.

What made you think I thought he was town? Please answer ASAP.

Narrow minded thinking is the downfall of town.

[Csareo]

@Csaereo:

In post 35, you mentioned two wagons and claimed that you randomized which one to vote. When asked about it later, you claimed the other wagon was on you. Did you flip a coin to decide whether to self-vote? If not, what did you mean?

There were two votes on albert, and two on hep, which was then flipped into being two votes on me.
I randomized a list with albert and hep on it, to hit hep.

[Csareo]

There weren't any votes on Albert

I meant nikcage. Sorry, I'm out of it now.
TBH, I'm regretting joining this game, because I'm not very motivated to play.
I'm just trying to wait it our for awhile, and maybe take myself out of the spotlight until more players can come in.
I prefer to be in the background asking questions, and summarizing my reads in extremely long posts.

[Csareo]

Sheeping ABR as a cover for my real reason for voting.

What is your real reason for voting? Sorry, but you're leaving me very confused.
This sentence is confusing and makes little sense.

UNVOTE: Hep
VOTE: Aegor]
Dude, don't say something extremely vague and suspicious, and ignore people when you're asked to clarify.
Anti town as shit itself.

It was part of a masterplan in which I would fakeclaim Day Cop with a guilty on NicCage and then see what happened. I decided against it because I was worried that given the playerlist and my unfamiliarity with most of it, the potential real Cop would counterclaim, not realizing that I was not serious, and out himself. So...I improvised.

Still fine with my vote, though.

Okay, I appreciate your clarification.
Although such plans are risky for townies, I do admire your ingenuity.
UNVOTE: Aegor

[Csareo]

Okay, I read the last couple of posts.
I am pretty neutral on the commentary.
The idea that Aegor and me are a scum team is silly.
The premise upon which that was founded was foolish to begin with.
The only real thing that has me concerned is how it got Ythill's vote to flip.
FOS, as it seems a bit pre-meditated. Kid-A comes in, and Ythill uses a case he JUST refuted to justify his vote.
Are you kidding me?

[Csareo]

@Bullish, This is the second time that you logged on and didn't post.
I saw you online yesterday, and you had time to post in Road to Rome, but not here.
I'm willing to believe that this is work related, but how come you have had time to play in rome..
but not here with us in Little Italy? I know your meta. You're one hell of a lurker.

[Csareo]

I think dybeck meant Csareo and heph, not Csareo and Aegor. What's funny is, when I agreed, I thought he meant Csaereo and Riddle (which was C's first vote). Csareo + heph doesn't seem as likely to me.

@Csareo:

I voted you because you still haven't explained the "two wagon" thing in a way that makes sense as something other than a slip.

There

were

two votes on hep and two votes on nikcage.
Two wagons. Can you clarify what questions you have about the two wagons?

[Csareo]

I think Csareo's Random Wagon post was stupid.

Which post and why?
I randomized hep and nik in a list, and hep came out.
I voted for hep. What is stupid about that?

I have concluded that most of you are VERY confused.
None of you seem to know what the random wagon thing is.
Kudos to the first person who can explain what the fuck is being referred to.

[Csareo]

Csareo's Wagon post: #35
Your comments/reads: #58

You considered him to be town but only slightly then, after he made the 'random wagon' post.
Later on you say it's scum and vote him. (#70) Why the sudden change in stance?

I never called anyone town or scum.
Grade A liar. Quote where I said hep is town.

[Csareo]

@Riddleton, when did I ever say hep was town?

[Csareo]

I never was implying you thought Heph was town.

You said in I considered him town and than called him scum.
What the hell are you talking about?

[Csareo]

That post was directed at Ythill

[Csareo]

Can we use the @ symbol for now on?
That's the second time this has happened.

[Csareo]

@Riddleton, , I was being a derp
His change of stance came after Kid A's post
I think that's been overlooked
Players should study that interaction in depth
The suspicious thing about the post is that.......
Kid A's logic was something that Ythill had recently dismissed
Is that not a major scum tell? The same logic he argued against...
happened to be the same logic he would suddenly agree with
By far the biggest scum slip I've seen since being on this site
I think Ythill will need a very good excuse for suddenly agreeing with a post he first considered false.

[Csareo]

Does mafia have day talk?

[Csareo]

Okay, I'm back. Read everything up again, so let's go through this one by one.

#114- Classic scum IMO. Put three things up that are doing nothing that he is saying they are. Is it just me, or has Ythill STILL not answered why he changed stances?
I feel like such a switch would result in instant suspicion, but TSO coming into the game gave a little wiggle room off the main topic.

#128- I also had reasonable suspicion of Aegor's claim. Partially why I was pushing him so hard. I know that if there wasn't a definite answer, he wold have to make one up.
The only issue is Aegor obviously had an initial meaning behind that vote, so it isn't like he said that for the sake of saying ignorant things.

#121- How come daytalk speculation is WIFOM? I am new to this site. I haven't been on mafiascum for 7 years like you have. Is it default in all games, standard, ect.? I don't know how things work here. Asking these questions is absolutely essential for catching scum.
#121(2)- Why do you say it as if it were a scum read?

@Ythill- Stop saying stupid things like "when we have a confirmed allignment". In mafia, this is usually indirectly telling us that you already have an idea on affiliation.
@Ythill2-Explain your almost immediate change of stance.
@TOS- You came to the game late. Any summary would be appreciated, at least in my book.

@Riddleton- Stop hinting that I'm scum while also buddying with me. Nothing personal, but nothing looks worst in mafia than unusual attachments early into the game.
I'm glad that you have taken times to pla both sides of the card, but to any observer it would look like you're subtly buddying with me.

[Csareo]

#121- How come daytalk speculation is WIFOM? I am new to this site. I haven't been on mafiascum for 7 years like you have. Is it default in all games, standard, ect.? I don't know how things work here. Asking these questions is absolutely essential for catching scum.

Most speculations of any sort (night kills, daytalk etc) are WIFOM. It's my personal opinion in that I hate WIFOM. It accomplishes nothing and just serves to distract people. I consider it a scum tactic most of the time.

There is daytalk in every game on one of the sites I play on.
I think it is strange that it is selective here.

[Csareo]

@Csareo:

I'm guessing the reason TSO wasn't suspicious of my vote is because it's not suspicious. You made what looked like a slip and you still haven't adequately excused it. Full (and IMO unnecessary) explanation in #99. Nuff said.

Daytalk speculation isn't WIFOM. Trying to call it a scum or town tell is.

It's cute that you're acting like I'm under pressure when you're the one two votes from lynch.

Are you kidding me? You made an entire post to debunk the logic Kid A later restated........................
then suddenly you switch opinions after Kid A brings it back up? This is known as contradicting yourself.
Anyone who doesn't see that isn't hunting scum.

[Csareo]

@Ythill, are you sure you're referring to post #62? You are to dybeck, and that post seems unrelated to the conversation you two are having.
Unless I'm being left out of something, I think you have the wrong post.

@dybeck, I agree that town has to speculate, but I hear riddle's complaint a lot...... from scum.
Fitting the theme of speculation, I'm guessing that there are 3-4 scum in this game, but I could be wrong.
Do you think scum are on my wagon? Judging from total votes and recent behavior, I think so.

[Csareo]

PE: talking

[Csareo]

You made an entire post to debunk the logic Kid A later restated........................

You keep saying this, but I'm actually not sure which post you're referring to? Could you specify?

Also, sorry to go on and on about this, but you're still lying about the "two wagons" thing and I still want to know why.

#69
Ythill agreed with an implication Kid A showed.

[Csareo]

Csareo, do you think agreeing with someone's implication is a scumtell or something?

It's not remotely close to a scumtell.

You're not getting the point.
He suddenly flip'd his entire stance after Kid A said that.
A stance he just publicly defended.

The reason so many players have asked Ythill this, is because it is unusual to take a public stance than just change your mind a couple posts later.

[Csareo]

Csareo, who looked very townie at first, is starting to slip a little./quote]

This is the pretext for him changing his stance. Either he's town or you believe he was scum who was being remarkably careful about showing organic reads. If it's the latter, then why? What reason does scum-Ythill have to do this? It's a lot of work for meagre reward.

Exactly! Now look at Kid A's post.
It didn't imply anything about me, but Ythill changes his vote after
Can you tell me what was in Kid A's post that made Ythill flip stances?
It seems like a big leap from townish to scum.

[Csareo]

Good, we're getting somewhere. Ythill doesn't have any evident motivation behind lynching me (to you), but that doesn't mean none exists.
Look at his defense in post #137, where he says "You made what looked like a slip...".
Go back to Kid A and Ythill's reaction. I think we established that Kid A's post had nothing to do with me, yet ythill changed his vote because of it

Ythill was obviously caught in a lie

[Csareo]

I still prefer Csareo as a lynch today.

Why? Can you give some reasoning/?
Your defenses have been as flip floppy as Ythill's.
Actually, from behavior anaylisis, it seems like you changed your mind a couple of times.

[Csareo]

I'm a bit on the edge. Obviously I should commit to a vote in the meantime.
Riddleton is looking pretty bad to me right now, because he tried to buddy with me earlier.
A lot of his plays looked like he was trying to smooch up to everyone to get into the town bloc.
The guy literally suckered up to everyone.
Csareo is scum............Csareo is town!
The guy is literally trying to stay in favor with both sides.
Is that not a bit suspicious?

VOTE: riddleton

TBH, this is more of a policy vote.
I don't have any solid reads, so I will probably move this upon even the slightest of circumstances.

[Csareo]

I never once said you were town.

I'm aware, but your reactions made me think, that you were trying to fool me into thinking you thought that way.
A lot of playing both sides. For example, earlier you said I did something scummy, and we got in a conversation about it.
Your reaction is what off-put me. You were responding to me like a cooperative scummy, and not a defensive townie.

Part of the reason I'm null on Ythill, is that he actually responded back to in a townish manner.
Scum always act to friendly and void of emotions, which is.................................. you!

[Csareo]

That sounds like it's basically omgus

how? I've seen this as objective behavior for scum.
Have you ever seen a town player so void of emotion in his posts.
It shows that you're the deciever, and not the hunter.

Note: It was a policy vote, I stated I may remove it.

[Csareo]

Csareo, what is a policy vote?

A vote based on policy, e.g, vote inactives to prevent inactivity, e.g, vote people giving bad theory to dispromote bad theory.

[Csareo]

So um. Csareo has posted on-site quite recently...

I said earlier that I was very unintrested in this game.
I don't intend on much activity until things pick up.

I'll catch up and give my thoughts tommorow.

[Csareo]

I was eager to out my role, but TSO unvoted.
I'm going to replace out guys. As a courtesy, I'll out my role if need be.

[Csareo]

I'm just not in to this game.
I would have already asked, but BE is already looking for two replacements, so three inactive players seems like hell to put the mod through.

[Csareo]

I'm not going to ask to replace until another player comes in.

[Csareo]

I'm a vanilla townie.

[Csareo]

We're ingoring a lot of alliances in our reads.
I noticed that some people have scum read both me and riddleton.
How? If I flip, will you suspect the other?

[Csareo]

Is it? I'm trying my best to get motivated into this game, and it has been VERY hard.

[Csareo]

I have claimed scum? How so?
Why is there so much hostility when someone changes their vote?
You appear to be bullying into a lynch?
What is your actual case against me?