Mini 1601: B_E's Mind Mafia ABANDIFIED

[OkaPoka]

Let us lynch beast!

[Shinobi]

Let us lynch beast!

Answer my questions.

[OkaPoka]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: beast

Happpy?

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: beast

Happpy?

Not really. You haven't given any reasons as to why you think beast is scum, either.

Explain?

[Elias_the_thief]

Welcome to the game erryone new.

Anen:

At times I was playing devil's advocate to Beast to get a better read on his tunneling. In part 3 of your notes you seem to have mixed up who I'm talking about. When I say we need to pressure him, I'm referring to Kid A. When I say pressure isn't helping, I'm referring to Csareo wagon, who only showed up after being called out on posting elsewhere, but added nothing despite there being a consistently large wagon on him. I was not advocating a policy lynch on Csareo, unless we have a different definition of policy lynch. Lynching a player who is anti-town is not the same as a policy lynch. A policy lynch would be if a player lied about something and I wanted to lynch them regardless of other play, simply because they lied (commonly referred to as Lynch All Liars).

I really just don't get the case on Aegor...that he made a joke about a day cop and that he ISO'd Kid A? Or am I missing something here?

oka

It would be much more beneficial for everyone if you answered those questions. Throwing your vote at a lurker now that we actually have a ful game is a half assed play for sure. And voting beast because you got pressured makes you look scummier imo.

[Elias_the_thief]

Also, going to be V/LA for the next couple days, as I will be moving back to school.

[Aneninen]

Elias,

(1) thanks for clearing it. It's no surprise that I've mixed up a thing or two.
(2) My definition of policy lynch is close to the Wiki definition: "

it describes the lynch of a player who is not found to be particularly scummy, but because the player's bad play will hurt the town later on.

" I myself don't like policy lynches, since I think it's hard to define the "hurt the town later on" part. Though, it's very hard to get reads on "policy-lynchable" players.
(3) As for Aegor, I linked many posts during my catch-up, check those too.

[OkaPoka]

beast is being a crazy pusher for more popular wagons to the extent of attacking people into his wagon of Csareo.

[Elias_the_thief]

I guess that post was kind of misleading...to clarify:

I will be V/LA the 23rd and 24th

.
Still around today

Aegor, 166 – and I still dislike votes without zero content about cases. FoS again. I don't think ABR's vote for you afterwards was an OMGUS, he might have had the same reason as I've mentioned here for it. Aegor, 176, oh, nonononono, that doesn't make me forget about your former vote! FoS-squared, because you wrote "Not feeling the Csareo wagon." 10 posts before.

Whoaaa, okay. I missed this both in thread and your read through. That's some legitimate wtf-ery right there. I don't really value the other major tell (voting without a reason) particularly highly, since it came pretty early in the game.

As for policy lynching, I guess my understanding is different than yours. By that definition I was at least in part advocating a policy lynch. My thoughts were that he was playing poorly whether he was town or not. So his lynch would either eliminate scum or eliminate an unhelpful player with the side effect of revealing a LOT about the other players since he's been such a huge part of the D1 discussion. So I guess that is kind of a policy lynch. Take it as you will, I thought the lynch would be beneficial to town.

For now I'm happy to hop on the Aegor wagon. I'd like to hear a better explanation for his 180 on Csareo wagon.
VOTE: Aegor. I believe that's

L-2

.

[Riddleton]

I initially townread Elias but I'm starting to change my mind the more I look at things:-

Elias the thief

-Flipflops a lot. I don't particularly like this; particularly with saying people are not scummy but later changing your mind (especially Aegor).
-How can you think someone's "scummy as hell" when they have made 4 posts? I suspect him a little, too, but I wouldn't go all-out and say I'm 100% sure he's scum. How confident are you about Kid A?
-I stated before that I liked his #196. I see that as a genuine catchup post and townie.
-I like #311. Kid A's random post is definitely cause to halt the lynch. It's a sign that the day should continue for at least a little longer to resolve more loose ends.
Verdict: Maybe lean scum.

[Ythill]

I'm here and catching up.

@mod:

I am voting Kid A, not Csareo. Not trying to be an ass, but the amount of VC errors in this game is going to make play difficult later on.

[Elias_the_thief]

-Flipflops a lot. I don't particularly like this; particularly with saying people are not scummy but later changing your mind (especially Aegor).'

I missed Aegor's switch from "not digging the csareo wagon" to voting him like 10 posts later. I generally change my reads when I become privy to new information.

-How can you think someone's "scummy as hell" when they have made 4 posts? I suspect him a little, too, but I wouldn't go all-out and say I'm 100% sure he's scum. How confident are you about Kid A?

He's a scum read. I can't say that he is definitely scum. But the timing of his appearances are pretty damning in my mind.

[beastcharizard]

beast is being a crazy pusher for more popular wagons to the extent of attacking people into his wagon of Csareo.

If that is what I have to do to get a scum lynch then so be it. It isn't like I am being mean to people to get them to join the wagon.

@that one guys who thinks I am scum with Aegor/Kid A:

You are completely wrong about me.

1. I explained the Csareo thing so it isn't like I just looked to see who was being voted.
2. I am the biggest advocate for the Csareo lynch and that is the lynch I want today. People just want to prolong that lynch till deadline so may as well attempt to use this time wisely.
3. That is all I remember you saying about me besides posting post tags and saying FOS without explaining stuff.
4. Vote Csareo because they are scum. It is the best lynch ever.

How I am a scum read of anyone's is beyond me. I have been the epitome of town so far and am an awesome replacement.

@Ythill:

Where is that case you said you were going to make? I spent time finding my scum games for you but you have yet to deliver.

[Aegor]

1) Why is beetlejuicing a scumtell? Do you honestly believe that someone being useless makes them 100% scum? Why are you focusing on someone supposedly useless like Kid A, who has claimed an intent to hammer/lynch (I still don't even know if Csareo was at L-1 or not, lol) whereas someone like OkaPoka has quite effectively done nothing?

Beetlejuicing is scummy because it by definition refers to someone who does not contribute except in self-defense. The person is clearly reading the thread but not posting. Obvious conclusions follow.

Someone being 100% useless makes them a good lynch in many situations; scumminess is secondary most Day 1s and inherent some Day 1s and subsequent Days.

I voted the ABR slot, so I do not know what you mean.

2) Why don't you like the Csareo wagon? You said you didn't like it multiple times but then voted him anyway, and then backed off again and never explained why at any point.

I did not like it. I voted him because of 172; I wanted to press him to confirm my read. Hence my questions in 179, 186, 206. Then I backed off again because I do not think the slot is scum.

3) Why is it that Riddleton is an

FoS

for you? You said that Csareo is low-hanging fruit, so I'm assuming that you don't think that he's actually scummy despite saying some scummy things (which is what you said later on in your ISO). You've never explained why any of this is, and then turned around and voted Csareo anyway. So what Riddleton was saying had merit, but then it didn't because...Reasons.

Bad posts do not mean scummy posts; I called his posts bad. Making the leap to scummy posts is scummy itself, and is what I meant by low-hanging fruit.

[Ythill]

Direct responses first...

How did you come to the conclusion it was even possible for us to No Lynch when everyone thinks Csareo is scum?

I meant in general. Let me rephrase the original point: my votes are never

just

pressure, I only join wagons if I am okay with them becoming lynches, even if there are other lynches I'd prefer. Is that clearer?

What? I ISOd Kid A before I voted.

The time stamps say bullshit. You voted Kid on 8/17 at 7:36pm. You commented about ISOing when you were asked about the vote, on 8/18 at 11:18am. Please explain why you waited nearly sixteen hours to make that offhanded comment.

I don't care how many towntells you have in my notes, this is a scum lie like whoa.

if you don't think [Kid A is] scum why do you wagon him?

(edited to clarify a pronoun)

I've already touched on this in-thread. I use my vote as an info tool in the early game. Also, I'm not very particular about D1 lynches. I don't put a lot of stake in most behavioral tells and have long believed that D1 is little better than random, except that it creates info for the mid and late game.

Where is that case you said you were going to make? I spent time finding my scum games for you but you have yet to deliver

1. It wasn't for a case. The opposite, actually. I am learning about your meta because my suspicion of you was largely based on impatience and tunneling which might be null.

2. I haven't read the meta yet, because I have an incredibly hot gf and she's been at my house. Which is why I've been skimming and am now catching up.

[Aegor]

The time stamps say bullshit. You voted Kid on 8/17 at 7:36pm. You commented about ISOing when you were asked about the vote, on 8/18 at 11:18am. Please explain why you waited nearly sixteen hours to make that offhanded comment.

I don't care how many towntells you have in my notes, this is a scum lie like whoa.

I ISOed him afterward as well, and at that point discovered that you could look up two people at the same time. I do not understand why this is difficult to grasp.

[Ythill]

So you needed to ISO him again, sixteen hours later, to see what it was in his three posts that you were suspicious of? Poppycock.

I went through the towntells I have listed in my notes for Aegor. They are the typical D1 stuff: behavioral, mostly weak. None of them stack up against this lie. I'm dropping him off my town list, which he was near the bottom of anyway. I'll post updated lists in a bit, after I'm done tabulating reads.

If Aegor was lower than L-2 or Csar hadn't claimed, I'd vote him right now. Instead, I'm going to find somewhere useful for my vote and wait to make sure everyone on that wagon is serious. If Aegor gets to L-1 and claims, I WILL hammer him (unless he somehow manages to clear up his lies).

[Ythill]

Elias and TSO are looking more townie overall. Though Elias seemed pretty scummy across 457 and 458 (where he allows himself to be talked on to L-2), it's not enough to counteract the townie stuff I've seen him do.

Riddle picked up more scumtells than towntells in the last couple of pages, including posturing his vote change and trying to make copying beast seem like his own work. Dybeck gets scum points for his wall and the way he built a strawman on defense, but the problem with dybeck scum (and it's strange that others' have ignored this) is that his only major "slip" requires Anen to be town.

Anen's replacement reread was terrible and gives new scumpoints to the slot. He seems more concerned with defense and fluff than anything, and his points are more about playstyle than alignment. Shinobi, on the other hand, gains some town cred, looking forward to seeing more from him.

The biggest turn around is beast. I skimmed his scum meta and learned something very valuable. Beast is far less impatient and tunnelly as scum. Far less. So drastically that I flipped all of the scumtells based on that behavior into town tells which moves him from low on the scum list to very strongly town.

The rest of the players didn't shift much over the last few pages or are posting too little. However, I did find it odd that Oka, who was involved in the discussion of beast's meta and has personal experience with it, voted him solely for impatience and tunneling.

Current Reads

:
Scum (in order): Anen, Riddle
Town: Elais, beast, TSO, heph
Meh: Everyone else. If you are in this category, chances are you need to post WAY more.

[Ythill]

unvote, vote dybeck

[beastcharizard]

Dybeck isn't even one of your scum reads. I am confused.

[Aegor]

So you needed to ISO him again, sixteen hours later, to see what it was in his three posts that you were suspicious of? Poppycock.

No; I wanted to see whether there was anything in those three posts that would have made me change my mind.

If Aegor was lower than L-2 or Csar hadn't claimed, I'd vote him right now. Instead, I'm going to find somewhere useful for my vote and wait to make sure everyone on that wagon is serious. If Aegor gets to L-1 and claims, I WILL hammer him (unless he somehow manages to clear up his lies).

Then why would I want to claim?

[Elias_the_thief]

The time stamps say bullshit. You voted Kid on 8/17 at 7:36pm. You commented about ISOing when you were asked about the vote, on 8/18 at 11:18am. Please explain why you waited nearly sixteen hours to make that offhanded comment.

I don't care how many towntells you have in my notes, this is a scum lie like whoa.

I ISOed him afterward as well, and at that point discovered that you could look up two people at the same time. I do not understand why this is difficult to grasp.

Wait. So you ISO'd him....voted...and then ISO'd again? For three posts? That makes little to no sense.

Dybeck gets scum points for his wall and the way he built a strawman on defense,

but the problem with dybeck scum (and it's strange that others' have ignored this) is that his only major "slip" requires Anen to be town.

I'm with you on the wall. Incredibly fence sitty plus a vote that feels like an afterthought. But you lost me on the bolded part. The fact that his wall was so inconclusive, and that he leaves himself both options on Csareo/Anen, is what seems scummy to me.

As a side note, you left both Dybeck and Aegor off your read list. It seems pretty obvious that you read scum on Aegor, but are you voting Dybeck mainly to help move him out of the "everybody else" category, or because he belongs under the scum category?

[Ythill]

The bolded part refers to where dybeck says something along the lines of "when you're a townie, you're a townie," suggesting that he knows Anen to be town.

Neither Aegor nor dybeck are in my scum category. I'm comfortable voting anyone not in my town category on D1. I prefer an Anen lynch at this point but I'm not picky. I get pickier as we get deeper into the game. I'm voting dybeck because it seems like a useful place to park while I'm seeing this situation through on Aegor. He hasn't had pressure yet and he's dropped some scumtells.

Then why would I want to claim?

The point is, I don't want you claiming unless you are very likely to be lynched. Or anyone else for that matter. So I am not putting you, or anyone, at L-1 lightly.

[Ythill]

Still not buying Aegor's story, BTW. No need to beat him into the ground with it though.

[Burning_Earth]

Official Vote Count

Aegor

(5): dybeck, hephaestus, Shinobi, Aneninen, Elias_the_thief

Kid A

(2): Aegor, Riddleton

Riddleton

(1): Kid A

hephaestus

(1): OkaPoka

dybeck

(2): beastcharizard, Ythill

Not Voting

(2): Fat_Tony, T S O

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.