Mini 1591: PFs Flavorless Normal (Game Over)

[Cyberbob]

I feel like there's some significance in the fact that pops has spent so long at L-1 without being hammered but I can't remember whether Mafia Theory has that as an indication of scum or town. I want to say scum but I would have expected a bus hammer by now if he was scum (assuming that there are scum on the IAI wagon) since it's usually in scum's interest to have days that are as short as possible

[SleepyKrew]

omg thor

[farside22]

You clearly aren't done discussing, and I want to see Squirrel Girl's response to you (I've got some predictions!) so no hammer yet.

What do you think of squirel girls defense of pops?

I don't think it is what you think it is, but I'm going to let Squirrely explain/prove me wrong.

You don't think squirel is defending pops bad play based on weak meta? I pointed to 4 games. 1 was scum with1 liners and one he talked more but his scum reasoning was not very strong in most cases in both game . The other two games he talked more openly about scum and had multi reads.

I feel like there's some significance in the fact that pops has spent so long at L-1 without being hammered but I can't remember whether Mafia Theory has that as an indication of scum or town. I want to say scum but I would have expected a bus hammer by now if he was scum (assuming that there are scum on the IAI wagon) since it's usually in scum's interest to have days that are as short as possible

Let's go into hypothery for a moment. If one wagon is town and the other is scum then does it make sense to bus?
If both are scum then it would make sense for scum to lean on one more then the ithet

[Cyberbob]

Let's go into hypothery for a moment. If one wagon is town and the other is scum then does it make sense to bus?

Before RC stated his explicit intent to hammer? No. After? Possibly. I think there are good reasons both to bus and not to bus, trending more towards bussing the longer the day goes on without a hammer. On the other hand they might be worried that hammering at any point would draw suspicion tomorrow. (all of this is assuming both that pops is scum and RC is town) In conclusion: it's terribly WIFOM, but I am positive that someone better at mafia theory than me has worked out a general rule about it in the past.

[farside22]

Laziness and disinterest are different. I just can't make anything happen with this town. I spend day 1 driving a good case, but no one listens or respects me or anything. They just keep making inane cases and comparing appendage lengths.

If I'm playing a little like a survivor, well, it's because I seem to have no power to get anyone lynched no matter what I say. It sorta seemed like the only thing I could do is prevent my own lynch, then, since I know I'm town. I went hard on Konowa and people just give him a free pass for nothing because everyone is a dumb sucker for the cat that ran up the tree story instead of the cat that didn't. I try to explain why RCs -unconfirmed- -L1 yielded- claim should get textbook lynched and I'm accused of lining up a LyLo lynch like wtf?

Do you really think pops is voting for who he thinks is scum and is really pushing anything like he says here ?


By the total terrible with mafia theory. I get more Wifom, which doesn't help.

[farside22]

By the way just want to say I feel frustrated that a few people stated scum reads on pops but want to keep him alive over iai.
I really don't understand how a player that doesn't push or state scum reads at l-1 can be town in anyone's view at all.

[popsofctown]

I have more townreads than scumreads this game. It happens sometimes. IAI is my biggest one, because he has been too willing to lynch a variety of different people (except for the townwagons he bragged about). Since IAI is already the counterwagon to me there's not much to say, Cyberbob makes the case better than I do.

[I Am Innocent]

You would be one of my other suspicions, IAI, but that vacay post placated me to a good extent.

unvote

Skrew is one of my other suspects. As I expressed D1, I feel like the Skrew vs. reinoe drivel that lasted all D1 didn't seem like town vs. town, and Skrew seems excessively defensive all game.

Goofydood and Beck are not my favorite slots either

Why unvote without a follow up vote to one of these 3 players? And what about my question about what you like from Cyberbob so far?

Is it the votes for the two confirmed town so far? I know he has voted a 3rd townie (me), and his only other suspect hinges on my guilt (which my flip will nullify as I'm town).

No other reads from him at this point.

So once again, what did you like from Cyberbob?

Pops I asked u that question twice now, and u never answered, what is the case u liked from cyberbob?

So since u brought it up again, please answer the question already

[I Am Innocent]

Pops who are ur town reads? Other scum reads?

Why are you not interested in leaving this information behind???

[farside22]

I have more townreads than scumreads this game. It happens sometimes. IAI is my biggest one, because he has been too willing to lynch a variety of different people (except for the townwagons he bragged about). Since IAI is already the counterwagon to me there's not much to say, Cyberbob makes the case better than I do.

A variety of different people?

IAI
Farside
Sleepykrew
Singer
Beck
RC
Dessew
Goofydood
Pops
Cyberbob

How does this list he made say that?

[farside22]

By the way he stated before that list it was from townie at to scum so don't get cute

[Dessew]

Dessew, RC, pops, same question for u.

I... honestly don't know. BTW, have you answered what you thought about pops voting-unvoting-voting you? I must have missed it.

If IAI flips town and pops wins as scum I'm going to be a sad panda.

Again, I must have missed a post here. Last time IAI wasn't in your town pile, right? Has anything happened since then?

Has squirel explained why pops is not scum based on meta?
I'm a bit busy for the next 2 days so someone needs to follow up on that.

I might mess up the terminology now because I'm not implying that you're doing it

intentionally

, but you seem to strawman squirel's arguments so that they look like ad logicam and then you ad logicam them. Pops wasn't called town, iirc.
With all that said, farside's posting seems genuine.

Let's go into hypothery for a moment. If one wagon is town and the other is scum then does it make sense to bus?

Before RC stated his explicit intent to hammer? No. After? Possibly. I think there are good reasons both to bus and not to bus, trending more towards bussing the longer the day goes on without a hammer. On the other hand they might be worried that hammering at any point would draw suspicion tomorrow. (all of this is assuming both that pops is scum and RC is town) In conclusion: it's terribly WIFOM, but I am positive that someone better at mafia theory than me has worked out a general rule about it in the past.

I wouldn't discard the possibility of a two-slot scum team. SK has already pointed out that with a three-player scum team, a vig and twelve players at the start this game could end awfully fast.

This variety stuff should be elabourated.

[farside22]

Dess: TBF I half read things, the case of ADD that I have makes me look very much bad to the people.
The only things I remember from Squirell is saying that I did not provide enough meta to say that this is null even though one game pops is scum with one liner and as town he is more expressive. And the fact he didn't hammer himself is pretty much all I recall.
Well that and my links were not clear because I got interrupted and stated as much when I linked them.

[Goofyd00d]

If IAI flips town and pops wins as scum I'm going to be a sad panda.

Again, I must have missed a post here. Last time IAI wasn't in your town pile, right? Has anything happened since then?

I'm not saying I think it will happen, I'm saying that situation would suck after having Pops so close.

[RedCoyote]

I missed this during my skim of 1226. This is an outstanding catch, Dessew. Everytime I try to go back and read this game, something new comes up that makes me want to dig my heels in. SK, did you see this point?

I might have commented on it when I was defending my hammer, but yeah I definitely noticed and it's part of the reason I suspect him. I did get that he meant "now confirmed", but I still think just phrasing it that way is suspicious.

Well, he just explained that now. Maybe he did earlier, but it seems like he's backtracking. I didn't like his implication that it was an obvious typo either. If it was so obvious, why did he need to explain himself two times?

I voted him, and I'm town. This argument doesn't exactly blow my socks off.

I think it's really weird that IAI didn't comment on this because it's actually somewhat of a misrep.

You're saying that I misrepresented him? How so? IAI's claim is that we should be lynching on the Drew wagon. He also implied he wasn't scum because he didn't vote for either Drew or reinoe. My contention is that I voted for Drew and am town, so that necessarily makes his argument less strong. Given that I have townreads on other players that voted Drew, the argument holds even less weight in my eyes. I don't think Drew was a bad lynch. At all. To say it was scum-driven is not accurate. I think there were better ones (notably IAI), but we could've done worse.

The offer stands, but, no joke, everytime I go back and try to read over the recent happenings in this game, I just want to dig my heels in. I do think IAI's play outweighs any wagon composition theory in regards to pops/Drew. I don't get scumreads off of Bob and Dessew. I haven't for the entirety of this game. I haven't really read SG at all, but I have no intentions on creating a new wagon even if I didn't like the things she had to say.

[Squirrel Girl]

I was typing up a huge response to Farside, but then realized I'd hate myself if I fell into that trap.
Look, Farside's barrage of posts basically makes two claims that I will show are silly.

1. That I am saying the meta shows that Pops is town, and that I haven't backed that up, therefore my issue should be ignore.
2. That I have not clarified why I have an issue with Farside but not Sleepy - when I have said both are doing the same thing.

Basically both of those claims are straight up straw men and/or lies. I have never said #1, and in fact have specifically not said it multiple times. I also *have* discussed #2 (again, multiple times I think). I am frustrated that Farside is demanding I defend and support things I have NEVER SAID and then, in the same wave, trying to suggest that my reads should be ignored because I can't defend things I never said.

Here's my rebuttal to *ALL* the points she is claiming I need to somehow show that Pops is town via meta;

I also note you're trying to frame me into a false debate. I never said his actions justified a town case. I do think they justify a playstyle case,a nd I also could *easily* show you town playing poorly and not scumhunting. Is that really a shocking idea to you, like you've never seen it before? That sounds insane if true.

Farside should be well aware that it is not my stance that Pops = town via meta - but is choosing to still try to force me to defend those statements.
I cannot make my stance any clearer than the above - and I said that in a response to Farside.
Farside apparently doesn't care and keeps trying to argue nonsense with me while suggesting people should ignore my thoughts.


Here's my rebuttal to #2

Even Sleepy the tunnel king actually feels comfortable admitting that he scum reads both - as well he should since they've done the same stuff. But Farside acts surprised I even have that conclusion - while still sticking to her guns that it is Pops, not IAI, who looks scummy...for reasons...

That doesn't make you nervy about her?

It makes me nervy as hell - what have you figured out from trying to understand her?

I have noted multiple times that I found Sleepy's reactions more towninsh, and Farside's more strange and agenda motivated, and have been noting this belief for some time - yet Farside can't figure out why I would possibly vote her.

I am content with my vote.
I would be more content if we spun all our votes onto Farside.
I am pretty sure this answers all the raised issues and points Farside made of me - and my basic answer is 'Farside is not reading and/or lying'.

[SleepyKrew]

You're saying that I misrepresented him? How so?

He's been saying that some of the people on both wagons are going to be town, but some of them are also definitely scum. The fact that he didn't correct you, even when I pointed it out, makes me think he's not genuinely pushing that argument.

[Squirrel Girl]

I have more townreads than scumreads this game. It happens sometimes. IAI is my biggest one, because he has been too willing to lynch a variety of different people (except for the townwagons he bragged about). Since IAI is already the counterwagon to me there's not much to say, Cyberbob makes the case better than I do.

A variety of different people?

IAI
Farside
Sleepykrew
Singer
Beck
RC
Dessew
Goofydood
Pops
Cyberbob

How does this list he made say that?

And look at this one, it's more misrep.

Pops is saying IAI wishes to lynch a variety of people.
Farside quotes IAI making a town to scum list - and suggests that disproves the previous statement.

It doesn't - it doesn't actually say anything. Like, where on that town to scum list is the lynch line? Clearly IAI wouldn't vote themselves, and the Farside position makes sense to my current theories, but after that? Even if, say, the 'willing to lynch' line was drawn at RC down or something, that's still a massive pile of people he'd be willing to lynch and it proves Pop's point fine. If, however, IAI had said he'd only be willing to lynch the bottom two it could show that Pops is wrong/lying.

But it doesn't do any of that - it's information that tells us nothing about IAI's thoughts as concerns what Pops is claiming.
But Farside is trying to use it to disprove and discredit Pops.
This is scum thinking.

[SleepyKrew]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: IAI

omg thor

[Squirrel Girl]

I haven't really read SG at all, but I have no intentions on creating a new wagon even if I didn't like the things she had to say.

Wait, so you're not even paying attention to what I'm doing?
Stop that!

[SleepyKrew]

I want to see Squirrel Girl's response to you (I've got some predictions!)

I'm so awesome

[Squirrel Girl]

I prefer to think of myself as an unpredictable whirlwind of awesome.

[farside22]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: IAI

omg thor

If iai flips town and people do not lynch pops I will fucking blacklist every fucking player here.

[Squirrel Girl]

No issue with my response to you?

[farside22]

I was typing up a huge response to Farside, but then realized I'd hate myself if I fell into that trap.
Look, Farside's barrage of posts basically makes two claims that I will show are silly.

1. That I am saying the meta shows that Pops is town, and that I haven't backed that up, therefore my issue should be ignore.
2. That I have not clarified why I have an issue with Farside but not Sleepy - when I have said both are doing the same thing.

Basically both of those claims are straight up straw men and/or lies. I have never said #1, and in fact have specifically not said it multiple times. I also *have* discussed #2 (again, multiple times I think). I am frustrated that Farside is demanding I defend and support things I have NEVER SAID and then, in the same wave, trying to suggest that my reads should be ignored because I can't defend things I never said.

Here's my rebuttal to *ALL* the points she is claiming I need to somehow show that Pops is town via meta;

I also note you're trying to frame me into a false debate. I never said his actions justified a town case. I do think they justify a playstyle case,a nd I also could *easily* show you town playing poorly and not scumhunting. Is that really a shocking idea to you, like you've never seen it before? That sounds insane if true.

Farside should be well aware that it is not my stance that Pops = town via meta - but is choosing to still try to force me to defend those statements.
I cannot make my stance any clearer than the above - and I said that in a response to Farside.
Farside apparently doesn't care and keeps trying to argue nonsense with me while suggesting people should ignore my thoughts.


Here's my rebuttal to #2

Even Sleepy the tunnel king actually feels comfortable admitting that he scum reads both - as well he should since they've done the same stuff. But Farside acts surprised I even have that conclusion - while still sticking to her guns that it is Pops, not IAI, who looks scummy...for reasons...

That doesn't make you nervy about her?

It makes me nervy as hell - what have you figured out from trying to understand her?

I have noted multiple times that I found Sleepy's reactions more towninsh, and Farside's more strange and agenda motivated, and have been noting this belief for some time - yet Farside can't figure out why I would possibly vote her.

I am content with my vote.
I would be more content if we spun all our votes onto Farside.
I am pretty sure this answers all the raised issues and points Farside made of me - and my basic answer is 'Farside is not reading and/or lying'.

1) just because a play can get lazy does not mean that get to be fucking lazy especially at l1
2) you wanted meta and then ignored it, why?



You second statement is blanetly false. If you read the game you might now that.