Micro 382 - CREDIMVS PAVONI DEORVM (Game Over!)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

^ This here.

I said that pushing votes around like that looks scummy. Just because you're slightly more town in my eyes doesn't mean you've not been scumread for your play.

I was asking you to quote Josh to show where he started speaking about his position on a wagon.

[Josh_B]

It's the wording. It's not: "I scumread you for pushing wagons against RVS posts", it's: "you deserve to be scumread for pushing wagons against RVS posts". The first one shows he's (more or less) genuinely attacking the person, the second is looking for a justification for the vote.

Ok, so I'm understanding that Scripten has convinced you that I sheeped. I didn't. On the second point. I'm sorry that my wording on that wasn't the best. I'm thinking bigger picture here, and personal game beliefs. I can even link you to my own games where I've pushed shitty RVS wagons as scum, but I don't think I have any as town. Newb Scum push shitty RVS wagons -all day, everyday.

Your vote tells me that you are currently town reading Scripten. I'm going to have to meta search to see if he is normally this aggressive.

[TierShift]

I think I was the first one to call you out on that sheep, bud.

I'm not townreading scripten per se. I'm just pretty sure you sheeped bad reasoning and god did it feel wrong.
I'm taking rvs pushing as a null-tell. And you saying it isn't is not changing that.

I'm not gonna read all those walls btw, but I don't see much evidence as to scriptenscum.

[Josh_B]

Nah, my case rests on the facts that I placed in my FoS that I put on you back here.(95) One part of that is that you're sheeping BBT. (The "original" facts you bring up I'll get to later.) There's also the vendetta, which is a null tell, since you said you wouldn't let it affect you and, as far as I can tell, have followed through. If that changes, though, I'll remember. Lastly, there's this (intentional(?)) misunderstanding you have about sheeping. It's your points, your case, that determine sheeping, not where you are on a wagon, so

you bringing up where you sit on my wagon

came off as strange to me. Scummy.

I wanted to know if you were referring to:
1) My comments that you were sheeping
2)

My comments that you seemed concerned about wagon placement

I think you're maybe taking this game a little too personally.

My comments aren't to show that you care about where you sit on a wagon

. They are to show that

you care about what others think about your placement on a wagon,

seeing as you brought it up.

I'm pushing a horrible case? Where? BBT? I'm not pushing nearly as hard as you are, nor nearly as hard as he is.

False Equivalence

3. Uhh... for one thing, it's not an argument. It was an observation. If Tiershift had continued to sheep BBT

(proof of making the same unfounded accusations against other players)

What

I said was that you were concerned about your placement on the wagon.

This is true. However, the meat of my argument is that

you're super concerned about where the town sees you on a wagon

. I didn't accuse you of sheeping because you made a vote against me. I accused you because all of your points were the exact same as BBT's. Do you understand? (If it helps clear things up, separate my point about your sheeping with my point about

your concern over your wagon placement.

)

The town will judge.

ad populum

Contrad

ictions

, and

fallacys

. That make me think you are scum.

[TierShift]

I really have no idea what that whole post by scripten means

Nor why the quoted things are contradictions

But that's probably because I don't understand what he says in the first place

[Mr_Ree]

I'm not townreading scripten per se. I'm just pretty sure you sheeped bad reasoning and god did it feel wrong. .

That's about how I feel about the situation. Something seems off in both arguments. Going to do a re read tonight and lay down a proper vote

[Scripten]

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

BBT:

I'm quoting the part of Josh_B's post you were asking about again.

But even more seriously, a wagon is going to start sometime, and not everyone can be on it first.

Now, let's try to clear this up. This part of the post sticks out because (Pay attention here, because I've said this before.): My case on Josh_B sheeping BBT rests on the points he is bringing up, not where he is on the wagon. It was strange for you to bring up when you jumped on the wagon, by excusing yourself for not being first, even though that had nothing to do with my accusations that you were sheeping BBT

With that in mind, read the following carefully, please.

Josh_B, my problem is not about where you are on the wagon. My problem is not even that you are concerned about when you hopped on the wagon. My problem is that you are concerned about

where the town/other players see you

getting on the wagon. Like I said before, you're careful about crafting an image that you aren't too quick or too slow to jump on a wagon. Does that clear this up? I seriously can not be any more clear.

Tiershift:

Did you read the original version of my post? Each part was specifically targeting a point from Josh_B. The format was not preserved when he quoted me, so the post makes no sense.

[Scripten]

EBWOP

Josh_B:

I realize a point in my earlier post didn't make sense reading back. Here's an edited version:

It's hard for me to understand you asking me what I'm referring to. You made a statement, I closed your statement and responded to that part of the statement.

I wanted to know if you were referring to:
1) My comments that you were sheeping
**

OR

**
2) My comments that you seemed concerned about wagon placement

Also, almost everything in that quote you left there is entirely out of context. It's actually pretty frustrating how you're doing that. Speaking of which, can you please not cut out every single question I ask you and totally avoid answering anything? Like, seriously. I'm going to quote below the parts of my last post with questions that you totally ignored. Mind answering them?

Your story is changing. If you are town, and this is your normal playstyle, it's is going to lead to a lot of mislynches. If you are scum, carry on.

Changing how, just out of curiosity? All I'm doing is working with the evidence I have, which of course would make my case evolve as time goes on. That's kinda how these things work.

-snip-

(Not so) Random Question: Do you think that sheeping only refers to votes? Can a player sheep someone else without even voting for the same person?

-snip-

What threats, my FoS and my vote? What names?

[Mr_Ree]

Ok, here's what we're going to do, Josh and Script should both list their points against the other

in point form

so I can kill both of their cases and we can proceed from there.

That should save us from walls of baseless accusations.

P-edit: @Scripten: that was said in response to sheeping. It has nothing to do with wagon placement. As in, he shares the misguided opinions of the original accuser, BBT, and would have voted there regardless of BBT's vote.

[Josh_B]

It's scripten contradicting himself about who brought up the Idea that I care about my placement on the wagon. Looking over the post now, I didn't do a good job of coloring it correctly. And yellow marks logical fallacies.

I read over Scripten's first completed game, he was mostly inactive, but that was due to personal reasons, so activity from meta is null.
However, he was much more logical in that game. It was short game, and a perfect town, win led by Cabd, The first scum was caught on page 1. For most of the first DP, his vote was an OMGUS vote on Cabd who he later decided that he agreed with and moved scum to L-1 with his vote. Not much reasoning was given beyond the agreement with Cabd. In DP2, he was one of 3 FoS, and hammered scum even though he still thought Cabd was scum(admitted in endgame) despite Cabd being the D1 lynch driver.

So, reading that game, I know that Skripten understands that town are allowed to agree with each other, and that scum can be caught on Page 1. IMHO that means all of his accusations of sheeping are scum motivated.

[The Bulge]

Votecount 1.5

BlueBloodedToffee (0) -

Clusk92 (0) -

Josh_B (3) -

TierShift, Scripten, Wolfy

Mr_Ree (0) -

Scripten (2) -

BlueBloodedToffee, Josh_B

ShadedMelee (1) -

vettrock

TierShift (1) -

Mr_Ree

vettrock (0) -

Wolfy (0) -

Not Voting -

Clusk92, ShadedMelee

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline in (expired on 2014-09-06 14:41:00) (September 6).

Mod Note -

I am at camp for the week and am limited to posting in the evenings and afternoons. Sorry for any inconvenience/overdue votecounts.

[Josh_B]

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

BBT:

I'm quoting the part of Josh_B's post you were asking about again.

But even more seriously, a wagon is going to start sometime, and not everyone can be on it first.

Now, let's try to clear this up. This part of the post sticks out because (Pay attention here, because I've said this before.): My case on Josh_B sheeping BBT rests on the points he is bringing up, not where he is on the wagon. It was strange for you to bring up when you jumped on the wagon, by excusing yourself for not being first, even though that had nothing to do with my accusations that you were sheeping BBT

Thank you for this clarification. The quote that you are using was part of my response to you saying that I was sheeping BBT with my understanding that your accusation was based on me being the second person to vote. Somebody has to be second, third, and so on. Any other interpretation is taking my statment out of context.

With that in mind, read the following carefully, please.

Josh_B, my problem is not about where you are on the wagon.

[Issue Resolved if is stays resolved]

My problem is not even that you are concerned about when you hopped on the wagon.

[Issue Resloved, if it stays resolved]

My problem is that you are concerned about

where the town/other players see you

getting on the wagon

[Not true, and previously refuted]

. Like I said before, you're careful about crafting an image that you aren't too quick or too slow to jump on a wagon

[Again not true, evidence show that I jumped on your wagon very quickly after my first post. You aren't being objective, and there is no evidence that I am either slow or not slow to jump on a wagon, so your entire statement is false. Any who, wagon placement isn't something that you can really call a tell until there's a flip, which can be used as supporting evidence, but not as a full justification]

. Does that clear this up? I seriously can not be any more clear.

[vettrock]

So to contribute to the Josh/Scripten debate:

I can follow most of Josh's argument with the exception of the color coded one which wasn't clear until I dug back into the original post to see what was added and what wasn't. Scripten seems to be bending stuff a lot more, but at this point I think its more being defensive that necessarily scummy. He is trying to bend things to support his view. Scum definately do this as they have to make things up, but confirmation bias and bending stuff due to confirmation bias definately affects town as well.

So sightly scumminess to Scripten, but I'm not ready to call him scum yet.

[Josh_B]

You know these quote wall arguments keep everyone else in the game from having solid reads? And they are keeping me from getting solid reads on other players? Can we just stop? I'm stopping. If you quote wall at me again, I'm not going to respond. I'm going to just let it sit empty. Even in this wall, I'm probably not going to say anything that I haven't already said. So to help out fellow town....

Spoiler: Wasted Space

EBWOP

Josh_B:

I realize a point in my earlier post didn't make sense reading back. Here's an edited version:

It's hard for me to understand you asking me what I'm referring to. You made a statement, I closed your statement and responded to that part of the statement.

I wanted to know if you were referring to:
1) My comments that you were sheeping
**

OR

**
2) My comments that you seemed concerned about wagon placement

You falsely accused me of caring about my wagon placement. I don't care, and that's inventive of you to accuse me of.

Also, almost everything in that quote you left there is entirely out of context. It's actually pretty frustrating how you're doing that. Speaking of which, can you please not cut out every single question I ask you and totally avoid answering anything? Like, seriously. I'm going to quote below the parts of my last post with questions that you totally ignored. Mind answering them?

Stop walling. I'm doing the best I can to cut out all of the fluff and respond to the direct part of your post

Your story is changing. If you are town, and this is your normal playstyle, it's is going to lead to a lot of mislynches. If you are scum, carry on.

Changing how, just out of curiosity? All I'm doing is working with the evidence I have, which of course would make my case evolve as time goes on. That's kinda how these things work.

First it was sheeping, then it was vendetta, then it was concern about wagon placement. Then you say that vendetta and wagon placement aren't your concern, but you keep bringing it up. Which is it? Does it matter or does it not matter? Because you seem really flip-floppy on whether or not it matters.

(Not so) Random Question: Do you think that sheeping only refers to votes? Can a player sheep someone else without even voting for the same person?

Sure, is this relevant? Pushing a wagon from the sidelines is very scummy.

What threats, my FoS and my vote? What names?[/quote]
Names: You called me a sheep, I answered that in red in my last post. Maybe you missed it.
Threats: You thought that BBT was trying to buddy TierShift, when that didn't work, you claimed that you were going to keep it mind to bolster a case later. Now you think that BBT, and Tier are both town, what was the point of making such a statement? I've already pointed this out, And you haven't admitted it. It really came across to me as "I can't get a case on you for this now, but wait for later because I'm still going to try to push this." That's a threat.

Just you wait..

[TierShift]

Ok, here's what we're going to do, Josh and Script should both list their points against the other

in point form

so I can kill both of their cases and we can proceed from there.

That should save us from walls of baseless accusations.

Good idea

It's scripten contradicting himself about who brought up the Idea that I care about my placement on the wagon. Looking over the post now, I didn't do a good job of coloring it correctly. And yellow marks logical fallacies.

Is this your case?

So, reading that game, I know that Skripten understands that town are allowed to agree with each other, and that scum can be caught on Page 1. IMHO that means all of his accusations of sheeping are scum motivated.

Why can't you be clearer?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oops sorry, prod received. I totally forgot the game, will catch up soon.

Hey, how you getting on with that catch up?

[Wolfy]

So, in summary:

Josh_B and Scripten

• two solid townies stuck in a conf bias loop that they won't get out of all game (or the best scum team ever)

BBT

• active scum hunting townie - just like the last game I played with him (when he was
  scum
  !)

Tiershift

• active scum hunting townie - stirrer/catalyst.

Clusk/Mr_Ree/Shaded/Vettrock/Me - all null - not enough content posting.
Still, it has been very entertaining so far.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mr_Ree
something not quite right about the response to the RVS votes - looks like trying to hide in the pack since then...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, in summary:

Josh_B and Scripten

• two solid townies stuck in a conf bias loop that they won't get out of all game (or the best scum team ever)

BBT

• active scum hunting townie - just like the last game I played with him (when he was
  scum
  !)

Tiershift

• active scum hunting townie - stirrer/catalyst.

Clusk/Mr_Ree/Shaded/Vettrock/Me - all null - not enough content posting.
Still, it has been very entertaining so far.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mr_Ree
something not quite right about the response to the RVS votes - looks like trying to hide in the pack since then...

Hmm.

When did your read change on Josh? Why did you think he was scummy when you voted for him? What in particular changed your read from scummy to townie?

It's quite the jump from voting him for 'looking scummy' to a 'solid townie'.

VOTE: Wolfy

[Wolfy]

Hmm.

When did your read change on Josh? Why did you think he was scummy when you voted for him? What in particular changed your read from scummy to townie?

It's quite the jump from voting him for 'looking scummy' to a 'solid townie'.

VOTE: Wolfy

Who said I read Josh as scummy? Votes are for other reasons besides believing somebody is scum.

The interaction between Scripten and Josh is typical townie bickering.

Your interpretation of my vote change as scummy is scummy though.

OMGUS!

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Are you thinking what I'm thinking that I think that you're thinking I'm thinking because if you think that I think what I think I'm thinking then we've got a problem?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Josh_B
I can go with this. Looking pretty scummy.

This says you were reading Josh as scummy.

[Wolfy]

VOTE: Josh_B
I can go with this. Looking pretty scummy.

This says you were reading Josh as scummy.

Nah. It says I was reading him as pretty!

I wasn't. It was a vote to get a reaction. What I got was next to nothing. He just carried on bickering with Scripten. That tells me town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

[
Nah. It says I was reading him as pretty!

I wasn't. It was a vote to get a reaction. What I got was next to nothing. He just carried on bickering with Scripten. That tells me town.

You may have been about to get a reaction;

Can you please give more of an explanation? What did you decide was alignment indicative?

But you chose to ignore this for some reason. Why is that?

Your logic and thoughts are not consistent so far. You were very fence-sitty at the beginning as well. I think that was an opportunistic vote that you realized you couldn't explain without it looking like you were sheeping so you retracted it.

Then you immediately OMGUS me. Why do you think I'm scum exactly?

I'm almost certain you're scum here.

[TierShift]

Josh IGMEOY

VOTE: wolfy

Bbt you made a good post for once, good job.

[Scripten]

FoS: Wolfy

- What in the world are you doing? How did you expect to get a reaction without engaging Josh_B at all? Why are you blatantly contradicting yourself, and why are you backing down at the first sign of suspicion? And what the hell is an OMGUS doing here? Aye-yi-yi...

What I really don't understand is how people are missing my case. It's already practically in point-by-point format. My posts aren't even that long usually. I just keep quotes in them so people have context. (Actually, this is the first time I've seen people completely ignore posts just because they are long.) Is responding point-by-point to someone frowned upon?

My Case Against Josh_B

-

Vendetta vs vettrock

-

This is obsolete, but it bothered me before Josh_B said he wouldn't let it affect the game. If it comes up again, it will be valid. Hence why I'm including it at all.

-Sheeping BBT -

Admitted to it right here: (71) (94) How can we still be arguing whether it happened or not? Still, denies it here: (124) (126)

-Promising points and not delivering -

Says he can provide in these: (103) (104) Never actually provides points. Just does... this: (128) Whatever that is, it's not making points clear.

-Avoiding questions -

Answering my questions would help me understand his play better. Even when he finally acknowledges some, he doesn't even answer several of those: (138)

-Concern over where town sees him on a wagon-

I've quoted the exact phrase that stood out to me plenty of times, but here's the post where he makes sure to let us know that

it's okay

not to be first on a wagon: (94) Reeks of self-justification for hopping on the wagon with BBT. (YES, I'm aware he was referring to the vettrock wagon. It was a general comment, however.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scripten, Wolfy is the lynch today.

Jump on the wagon.