Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[StrangerCoug]

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

[Gemini Blind]

Fair enough but I still think you're suspicious for using a scumtell inappropriately and seeming disingenuous.

pedit: to Dry-fit if it wasn't obvious.

~STD

[Dry-fit]

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

You said no one has been talking exclusively about strategy. Then you said all that Salamence has been talking about is strategy and fluff. So it's apparently saving him in your view of being a player who has only talked about strategy.

[StrangerCoug]

Except that I never explicitly said strategizing was scummy.

[Dry-fit]

Have I suddenly lost the ability to communicate?

[RedCoyote]

Strong, dependable Taurus leads the way when it comes to reaping the rewards of hard work. Lovers of everything that is fine and beautiful, Taureans surround themselves with material gains. This is a sensual, tactile sign. Touch is very important in everything from work to romance. Stable and conservative, Taureans are among the most reliable of the zodiac. While sometimes viewed as stubborn, this sign will plod along on a task until the very end, ensuring that everything is up to standard. They're highly creative and thoroughly enjoy making things with their own hands.

Taurus' lucky numbers today: 42, 27, 15, 10, 22, 44

"I praise loudly. I blame softly." - Catherine the Great

---

Vote Count 1 - 5

• Salamence20 (4) (
  StrangerCoug
  - Dry-fit - Nachomamma8 - Xayzeck - PeregrineV)
  
  burn_209 (2) ( Salamence20 - Juls)
  Xayzeck (2) ( Witness Protection - Elyse)
  Dry-fit (2) ( Gemini Blind - StrangerCoug)
  Witness Protection (1) ( Iecerint)
  Juls (1) ( burn_209)
  
  Not Voting (0) ()

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2014-09-08 15:35:00)

[Nachomamma8]

So, attempting to sort out Dry-Fit/SC:

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

Why would it be a scumtell to strategize? You expect the town to screw itself over? Is that what I'm supposed to be getting?

It's a scumtell because in my experience scum is more likely to talk exclusively about strategy in the early game. Why that is I'm not sure. It may be rolefising. It may be trying to look protown without taking any actual stances. In any case it's not strategizing in itself that's scummy.

It's making strategizing te entirety or almost the entirety of your play.

I really do not buy this crap. Nobody's been talking exclusively about strategy, I don't smell anybody trying to rolefish, and while you admit that strategizing is not a scumtell, when we have some idea of who could have what, strategizing is quite protown. It's not unknown to break setups that way (though it's far too early for there to be evidence either way of a broken setup).

UNVOTE: Salamence20 (though I still wouldn't mind that person lynched)
VOTE: Dry-fit

Based on this post, I gather that SC's main problem with DryFit is that he seems to be railing against people who are strategizing because strategizing is vital to town and calling it a scumtell is antitown, but I think that point is pretty much completely talking past Dry-Fit's logic bolded here, which isn't even that Salamence is "strategizing exclusively", only that he's mostly done nothing but strategizing. I don't think the SC rebuttal of "he fluffed too" quite addresses this point.

[Nachomamma8]

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

To this, it wasn't that his fluff posting saved him from your scumlist, it was that his fluff posting saved him from being someone who exclusively talked strategy. You said there wasn't anyone who exclusively talked strategy in the post quoted above.

[Nachomamma8]

I should just be as blunt as possible.

From my point of view, you're talking about strategizing in terms of talking about the setup/roles as a scumtell.

The dayvig is a random kill that's out there that is irrelevant to anyone's role.

Discussing the dayvig kill and even outting the dayvig doesn't lead to anyone's role information, but it could lead to alignment information.

This early? Role info is bad. Alignment info is tasty.

Since the dayvig is dangling out there, of course many people would probably jump on that.

As far as "strategy" goes, you mention things like role fishing, role/setup information, etc. All we know get to know is potentially who has the dayvig, and potentially what alignment they are. I'm concerned both with how early you brought up this tactic of looking towards people who strategize and speculate in order to post fluff as well as your definition of strategery since I question whether it applies in this particular situation.

~STD

This I don't actually understand at all. Here, you accuse Dry of regarding possessing a dayvig to be a scumtell and yet he hasn't said anything that so much as resembles that statement. So while I agree with your logic here because it's correct... I don't know why or how you've turned it into an attack on Dry.

[StrangerCoug]

Have I suddenly lost the ability to communicate?

I'm not convinced we have a communication problem. If anything, we're at an impasse where neither of us are budging.

Based on this post, I gather that SC's main problem with DryFit is that he seems to be railing against people who are strategizing because strategizing is vital to town and calling it a scumtell is antitown, but I think that point is pretty much completely talking past Dry-Fit's logic bolded here, which isn't even that Salamence is "strategizing exclusively", only that he's mostly done nothing but strategizing. I don't think the SC rebuttal of "he fluffed too" quite addresses this point.

I've done the best explanation I can. I pretty much have Salamence20 as useless, and the strategizing he's done is too little to make him town in my eyes.

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

To this, it wasn't that his fluff posting saved him from your scumlist, it was that his fluff posting saved him from being someone who exclusively talked strategy. You said there wasn't anyone who exclusively talked strategy in the post quoted above.

I interpreted the context to be otherwise.

[Nachomamma8]

I've done the best explanation I can. I pretty much have Salamence20 as useless, and the strategizing he's done is too little to make him town in my eyes.

And this is exactly what Dry is saying, only Dry also believes that he's done only strategizing instead of placing scumhunting as a priority should be another point against him.

[StrangerCoug]

OK.

UNVOTE: Dry-fit
VOTE: Salamence20

Right now I believe that, if Dry-fit and Nachomamma8 are the same alignment, they are both town. I'd expect a weaker defense of Dry-fit from scumbuddy-Nachomamma8.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho I think you're wrong about Elyse. Coming right out and saying you have no scumreads is most likely town

I don't get your reasoning for this. The could maybe see you calling it town because it's something that's too risky for scum to say, but taking the position on page 6 doesn't seem that risky and thus not that town, and it prevents her from having to take positions on who to lynch because she doesn't have that opinion. I also didn't really like how she called me town and yet didn't engage my scumread on Salamence (aka pick out flaws in it) to see where I was coming from which shows me she not only lacks a scumread, but lacks interest in developing a scumread as well.

[Nachomamma8]

This early, that's enough for me.

This bothers me on some level because I feel like we won't be able to see eye to eye when I'm looking for a scum lynch and you're looking for something "good enough" early game. Why isn't what Salamence is doing good enough for an early game vote? Why do you think he's town?

[Gemini Blind]

One of these days I'm going to post out of hydra :/

I'm far from the most eloquent of speakers.

My problem is this:

Dry-fit comes into thread attacking people who talk about the day-vig.

When asked why, he says scum usually talk about setup/role stuff on day 1.

When asked why strategizing is a scum tell, he says scum are most likely to talk about strategy, and hypothesizing that it may be due to rolefishing, or trying to look protown.

Since the dayvig is independant of role, half of his argument as to "I think these people are scummy because of this tell" doesn't even apply.

To me that reads as fake scum hunting. An argument that seems forced to me lands him on a wagon.

At the same time I do acknowledge the whole "this person's only content is related to game mechanics, it could be scum trying to look useful." I'm fine with that, though less so since halfway through day 3 I'm not really sure what else we're suppose to talk about except for this interesting dayvig that has fallen in someone's lap.

I don't really want his head on a platter at the moment (like I wouldn't dayvig him right this instant har har) but I don't think that the twins have a better place to park our vote.

Does that clarify or obfuscate things further?

~STD

[Nachomamma8]

It clarifies things.

When asked why strategizing is a scum tell, he says scum are most likely to talk about strategy, and hypothesizing that it may be due to rolefishing, or trying to look protown.

This seems to be your major problem with Dry's case, no? It's also the most underdeveloped case and not the reason he's voting. He's not voting Salamence because he's rolefishing. He's not voting Salamence because he's trying to look town. He's voting Salamence because Salamence is doing things other scum have done in other games he played and I think that's a perfectly reasonable reason to vote someone. I think I would agree with you if Dry opened the attack with "he's rolefishing" instead of "he's focusing too much on strategy", but here I think he just had trouble explaining why his scumtell was a scumtell and I've been in that position far too many times to scrutinize it.

[Elyse]

Nacho I think you're wrong about Elyse. Coming right out and saying you have no scumreads is most likely town

I don't get your reasoning for this. The could maybe see you calling it town because it's something that's too risky for scum to say, but taking the position on page 6 doesn't seem that risky and thus not that town, and it prevents her from having to take positions on who to lynch because she doesn't have that opinion. I also didn't really like how she called me town and yet didn't engage my scumread on Salamence (aka pick out flaws in it) to see where I was coming from which shows me she not only lacks a scumread, but lacks interest in developing a scumread as well.

It's not that I'm not interested in developing a scumread. Salamence has said he'll be away for a few days so I don't think it's scummy that he's been elsewhere on site or barely present.

As far as only talking about theory, yeah I guess that's true, but it's early in the game and it's not like Salamence purposely avoided talking about current events in the topic and used theory as a crutch to avoid taking stances. Id like to see him come back and hear what he has to say. I certainly understand the votes on him, though.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean, in general, here's what I've seen from Dry-Fit:

I'm going to make a point of stating that I will not be joining the Xayzeck wagon.

I always appreciate people who stick themselves into the limelight a little it because it's not an advantageous position to be in as scum, and I liked this post because it seemed to be designed to get people to reanalyze Xay votes and pretty much nothing else. He didn't leverage his defense of Xay into a vote somewhere else, he just... disagreed. I like that.

You may wait for Elyse to respond I guess.

Gracious of you.

There are some players who tend to be more abrasive as town, whether it's because they feel more righteous or less nervous or whatever as town, but it bleeds out early and often. This is one of the examples of tone I look for in players like that and I'm pretty confident Dry is one of them.

At first I didn't like Elyse's response but the more I think about it the more I like it. I think responding to Gemini Blind's question in a way that didn't directly say she was suspicious of Xay was an honest response.

I see this post and what I see is an more complicated thought process unfolding that scum, 20/21 times, don't think to fake early game, which is "well it's scummy on a surface level for x reason but actually is town because of y reason". it especially rings true to me because i go through these thought processes a lot when thinking about the game elsewhere, i'll sit on things and turn them over in mind and have similar reactions and the similarities are very reassuring.

On his actual point:

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

It's a scumtell because in my experience scum is more likely to talk exclusively about strategy in the early game. Why that is I'm not sure.

Gemini, this seems to be the crux of his argument as well as the piece of his argument he actually cares about. I think you're focusing too heavily on a one-off hyptohesis and missing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

Nacho I think you're wrong about Elyse. Coming right out and saying you have no scumreads is most likely town

I liked this reach out to me re: defending his earlier read against someone who is lightly defending him when momentum is forming against him.

Have I suddenly lost the ability to communicate?

I also really, really liked this because I felt (feel?) I have a pretty good grasp on his argument whereas other people seemed to miss little points here and there, and it felt like this was a natural buildup of frustration that never got converted into an opportunity for scum (aka you're misrepping me!), and more "I'm talking a foreign language, no one understands me" type of feeling which feels like townie frustration because the frustration is formed from lack of frustration as opposed to accumulation of pressure.

[Nachomamma8]

It's not that I'm not interested in developing a scumread. Salamence has said he'll be away for a few days so I don't think it's scummy that he's been elsewhere on site or barely present.

He's said it on the 28th and I have no doubt his recent stretch of inactivity is legitimate, but before the 28th there was a strong pattern of posting everywhere but here even though it's not like catchup would take him that long. It's also not a matter of how long he's been around: it's a matter of how he's been spending his limited time when he's around and the answer is not good.

[Gemini Blind]

Nacho

Do you not think partway down page 3 is a little early to accuse people of being scum for talking about something interesting in the set up? Do you expect people to be actively scumhunting by then?

While I'm not saying he's obvscum and deserves to die, I think some of your pro-townie points given to Dry-fit in 167 are a bit of a stretch. I also think saying I think Dry-fit is scum because he said role stuff and dayvig is not a role is a bit of a strawman but I'll admit I haven't been very clear.

~STD

[Salamence20]

About my "lurking": nacho states that I have been in other threads and purposefully ignoring this one. That isn't true. Two days ago I got into a fight on this site which had me pissed and fuming. I'm not going into the details of this fight, but it ended with me replacing out of all current games except two (this one and a micro) and my modded game. My modding duties come first before any game. The other game I haven't posted in awhile, and this one, where I came to say that. I needed a little bit of time to cool down. Any posts made around then were a) me replacing out or b) my modded game. I'm back now and I'm a little confused on why I'm brought to L-1 this early and also on the notion of dayvig speculation. Which reminds me...

About dayvig speculation: I love the dayvig, it's my favorite role in all of mafia. That's why I asked who had my dayvig in my RVS. I then said the dayvig should out on PG 2, for the sake of town controlling the shot, something that has been mentioned by other players as well. The argument against this was "mafia controls the shot if Dayvig outs." How so? There are more townies than mafia. If town holds the shot, we play normal and shoot the person we want to lynch, then get another lynch. Even if mafia disagree on our shot target and try to manipulate the shot, they are the minority. If 8-9 players want to shoot player A and 4-5 players want to shoot player B, A dies regardless of the number of scum on the other wagon to shoot. So i don't see the problem. If mafia holds the shot and refuses to shoot the player the majority wants, chances are the dayvig is scum defending a scumbuddy or WIFOM. We lynch the dayvig if they refuse. How is this scummy? Hell, STD stated the same thing I did about the dayvig.

Oh it's because I didn't scumhunt on the first 3 pages.

Im sorry.

I always try to get us out of RVS. It is pro-town, regardless of my actual alignment.

In terms of actual reading, Nacho is town regardless of his misreading of me, he is scumhunting early and like I said earlier, scumhunting and getting us out of RVS is always protown. SC slightly less, but still. Gemini is looking good too, based on the fact that I feel like STD would love to hop on my wagon based on my personality.

On the other side of things, I don't like Xay. All three votes of his have been bandwagons on Iec, WP, and myself, respectively. It just seems like trying to hiding behind the crowd on a mislynch.

Out of all the people on my wagon, Xay's and PV's votes are the worse. PV waits until Nacho tells him to hop on to vote, which seems as justified as Xay's reasoning. I think more pressure need to be put onto PV, Xay, or both.

UNVOTE: Burn
VOTE: PV

I'll be on for the rest of the night, so if you have questions or so, hit me.

[PeregrineV]

One of these days I'm going to post out of hydra :/

I'm far from the most eloquent of speakers.

My problem is this:

Dry-fit comes into thread attacking people who talk about the day-vig.

When asked why, he says scum usually talk about setup/role stuff on day 1.

When asked why strategizing is a scum tell, he says scum are most likely to talk about strategy, and hypothesizing that it may be due to rolefishing, or trying to look protown.

Since the dayvig is independant of role, half of his argument as to "I think these people are scummy because of this tell" doesn't even apply.

To me that reads as fake scum hunting. An argument that seems forced to me lands him on a wagon.

At the same time I do acknowledge the whole "this person's only content is related to game mechanics, it could be scum trying to look useful." I'm fine with that, though less so since halfway through day 3 I'm not really sure what else we're suppose to talk about except for this interesting dayvig that has fallen in someone's lap.

I don't really want his head on a platter at the moment (like I wouldn't dayvig him right this instant har har) but I don't think that the twins have a better place to park our vote.

Does that clarify or obfuscate things further?

~STD

I like this post too. I think setup spec is pro-town, because town tries to figure out what scum already knows (who is town, and who is scum, and what tools does each have). I think obsessive setup spec or excessive theory are scummy, since they then become substitutes for scumhunting.

Right now the dayvig should be the topic, since it's relevant, but either of the 2 ideas (extra lynch, or shoot at will) are fine. One will require votes and reasons and such, the other will result in accolades or scrutiny depending on the shot.

[PeregrineV]

About my "lurking": nacho states that I have been in other threads and purposefully ignoring this one. That isn't true. Two days ago I got into a fight on this site which had me pissed and fuming. I'm not going into the details of this fight, but it ended with me replacing out of all current games except two (this one and a micro) and my modded game. My modding duties come first before any game. The other game I haven't posted in awhile, and this one, where I came to say that. I needed a little bit of time to cool down. Any posts made around then were a) me replacing out or b) my modded game. I'm back now and I'm a little confused on why I'm brought to L-1 this early and also on the notion of dayvig speculation. Which reminds me...

About dayvig speculation: I love the dayvig, it's my favorite role in all of mafia. That's why I asked who had my dayvig in my RVS. I then said the dayvig should out on PG 2, for the sake of town controlling the shot, something that has been mentioned by other players as well. The argument against this was "mafia controls the shot if Dayvig outs." How so? There are more townies than mafia. If town holds the shot, we play normal and shoot the person we want to lynch, then get another lynch. Even if mafia disagree on our shot target and try to manipulate the shot, they are the minority. If 8-9 players want to shoot player A and 4-5 players want to shoot player B, A dies regardless of the number of scum on the other wagon to shoot. So i don't see the problem. If mafia holds the shot and refuses to shoot the player the majority wants, chances are the dayvig is scum defending a scumbuddy or WIFOM. We lynch the dayvig if they refuse. How is this scummy? Hell, STD stated the same thing I did about the dayvig.

Oh it's because I didn't scumhunt on the first 3 pages.

Im sorry.

I always try to get us out of RVS. It is pro-town, regardless of my actual alignment.

In terms of actual reading, Nacho is town regardless of his misreading of me, he is scumhunting early and like I said earlier, scumhunting and getting us out of RVS is always protown. SC slightly less, but still. Gemini is looking good too, based on the fact that I feel like STD would love to hop on my wagon based on my personality.

On the other side of things, I don't like Xay. All three votes of his have been bandwagons on Iec, WP, and myself, respectively. It just seems like trying to hiding behind the crowd on a mislynch.

Out of all the people on my wagon, Xay's and PV's votes are the worse. PV waits until Nacho tells him to hop on to vote, which seems as justified as Xay's reasoning. I think more pressure need to be put onto PV, Xay, or both.

UNVOTE: Burn
VOTE: PV

I'll be on for the rest of the night, so if you have questions or so, hit me.

Am I sheeping scumNacho?

[Gemini Blind]

Gemini is looking good too, based on the fact that I feel like STD would love to hop on my wagon based on my personality.

I'm kind of curious about this.

~STD

[Nachomamma8]

Do you not think partway down page 3 is a little early to accuse people of being scum for talking about something interesting in the set up? Do you expect people to be actively scumhunting by then?

I don't think Dry was accusing people for being scum because they talked about something interesting in the setup: I thought there were scum among people talking about the setup, which I found reasonable enough. I definitely think some people should be actively scumhunting by page 3. I don't think Dry is holding people to an unreasonable standard: maybe he's too early to be accurate, but I don't think he's too early in his attacks to be scummy, if that makes sense.

While I'm not saying he's obvscum and deserves to die, I think some of your pro-townie points given to Dry-fit in 167 are a bit of a stretch.

I agree. I think that his ISO as a whole has more town points than scum points, though.

I also think saying I think Dry-fit is scum because he said role stuff and dayvig is not a role is a bit of a strawman but I'll admit I haven't been very clear.

If you're accusing him of being scummy for telling people they can't strategize, that's addressed in rebuttal to SC.
If you're accusing him of being scummy for holding people to unreasonable standards, that's addressed above.
If it's something else entirely, I'm afraid I still don't know what you're talking about and I'm sorry for the massive levels of confusion.