Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[Lissa]

VOTE: FourTrouble

I bet you're trouble.

[Lissa]

Hmm.

Nashville should stop talking in verse. Unless they have a post restriction, in which case fine. But if it's not a post restriction, enough is enough!
And they certainly do seem to be jumping to reads a bit quickly. So... Nashville, as 5-Off said, what specifically makes Bork-hydra/Cutty Shark and ika+beast-hydra/IHNC town?

[Lissa]

I'm not really sure what was wrong with my post, but okay.

I wasn't sure at first, but rereading a few times I'm getting an off feeling about IHNC. Not really liking some things about some of their posts.
So at the moment my scum reads are IHNC and, if they don't have a post restriction and are just messing around (and honestly I doubt they have a post restriction), Nashville. These are fairly weak reads right now.

[Lissa]

ok guts ping on four, fonz, and nashvill.

5-off has one post but its nothign too intresting yet

else who have posted is town to me

pedit: here lets try this:

lissa how many game of mafia have you played?

im giving lisa a momentaryl slide due to join date.

This is my third (non-marathon) game on MS. I've played some forum mafia offsite, on a forum that's not primarily mafia focused (there's just a smallish group there that plays every weekend); the games there are about a day or two long each and not as serious as the ones here.

Nashville, having fun is one thing, but it has been a bit difficult to understand some of the points you're trying to make when they're in verse.
But like Cutty Shark said, as long as you also say more comprehensible things, I'm not bothered.

I suppose I had intended this

I'm not really sure what was wrong with my post, but okay.

as an implied inquiry. I probably should have phrased that better.

[Lissa]

us
FT
Lissa
5-off (who is the one with the info)

Let me clear something up about this info:
5-Off said it was labelled as "rumors" that there was a "double agent." It wasn't a flat-out "there is definitely a scum intern."
And there is certainly still the possibility that he was gambiting.

Rereading to try and get better reads and see what else I need to respond to.

[Lissa]

I think out of the neighborhood Four is most likely to be scum. And I feel like Baboon is town. Will explain further later.

apologies for being a bit quiet so far. I'm pretty busy today but I will have a more substantial post tomorrow.

[Lissa]

Alright, catchup time. I'm going to reread the thread and react as I go.

[Lissa]

Started from page five. Might be somewhat out of order.

gossamer/Tammy's stuff about "this is town-Tammy" is giving me a bit of an odd vibe. This may be because I don't really know her but I'm uncertain what to think of some of her jokes. She kept talking about how she's town, referencing it in most of her posts. I want to check some of Tammy's other games to see if she usually says stuff like that.

there was the neighbor talk.

I might be skipping ahead a bit in my head but I think it was decided in the neighborhood (it was first suggested by Baboon) that if anyone claims intern who hasn't posted in there, we claim (this bit is irrelevant now) and immediately lynch them and bye bye lurkerscum.

I isoed FT. Something that popped out:

You're seriously paranoid of us because we liked one post he made?

Uh, not sure what you're talking about. I don't follow any of your reads, period. Nor do I see how your questions and responses carry town motivations.

thinking Baboon scum.
Then a little while later:

I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?

Saying he wanted IHNC lynched.
Then he went back to Baboon:

Baboon, I question whether there is a thought process behind the reads. Lack of thought process = scum.

Then he accused IHNC some more.
He was also suspicious of Fonz.
But later he somewhat rapidly switched to 5-Off, briefly, and back to Baboon a few pages later. And not long after he calls 5-Off a "fellow townie", if I am interpreting a post of his right.
The switching as he did it seems a little odd to me. I may be a bit biased though, as I already had a light gut scumread on him and have a slight townread on Baboon currently. So I am worried I'm reading FT's posts through a slightly paranoid light; anyone else think what I pointed out is odd?

Back to just general analysis now, that was it for FT's iso.

[Lissa]

oh and about FT voting 5-Off then switching back to baboon then calling 5-off town not too long after. He didn't actually say he thought 5-off was town when he switched his vote back. He seemed to attribute it to a point F16 made about baboon. He said he just voted 5-off because nobody seemed to want to go for the others he was pushing. Not sure what to think of that.

Yeah Tammy I can't find this in the games I'm looking at right now but I'm just skimming your isos in a few of the shorter ones as it's late and I'm tired. So there is a very good chance I'm missing it. I need to try again in the morning.

FT says he never read what baboon wrote in the neighborhood (about the fifth possible lurkerscum thing). Seems odd. Not sure it's scummy in itself though. It's not why I suspect FT.

Oh and I'm starting to lean slightly town on IHNC now.

lissa's vote was on FT since her first post, and later qualifies it with "I think out of the neighborhood Four is most likely to be scum. And I feel like Baboon is town. Will explain further later." Please explain - why is baboon town? Why is Four most likely scum?

Not exactly. Four was originally a RVS vote. I didn't yet know he was in the neighborhood when I placed that vote, actually; I just picked him because he was the first person on the playerlist I could think of a silly voting reason for. I just never removed that original vote, and when I started to actually suspect FT, I didn't want to remove it.
I'll try to explain why for baboon-town better in the morning, but as a whole they just feel slightly townish to me.

And just speculating out loud here but I feel like 5-off could be third party. the neighborhood info he had... I could see going to a neutral third. So like, he could choose whether to share and help town or keep it to himself and possibly help scum. Not at all sure though. And not going to pay any further attention to it right now, it's just a wild theory and we don't need to be hunting for/worried about neutral thirds anyway right?
Also just a note. I originally took the info he shared at face value. I don't have experience with him so I didn't really think about it being a town gambit - my original thought was something along the lines of, either it's true and there's scum in the neighborhood or he's lying scum and there's scum in the neighborhood or (less likely) the "rumors" are simply not true. And it didn't really look like a gambit, though I don't have a lot of experience with gambits.

More tomorrow.

[Lissa]

Lissa, two things. First, some clarification. Earlier in the game, I suspected IHNC and Baboon at the same time. I expected Baboon be harder to read, so IHNC was my vote, while I tried to discuss Baboon with F-16 (also intended to get at F-16's alignment, which is important for my sanity -- personally I think he's one of the most dangerous mafiosos around, though I may be the only one to say this). Then, while rereading the game, I noticed 5-Off's response to F-16's question. 5-Off interpreted F-16's question as an attack on alignment rather than an attack on playstyle. That was a problem, so I voted 5-Off, since keeping my vote on IHNC wasn't doing anything. When 5-Off started posting more, I liked what they were saying. Reread them again. Saw their questions to Flubber and Nashville, liked those. Around this time, Anatole was pushing Baboon, which I also liked. So I decided to go after Baboon, who I had suspected since much earlier. So there isn't really much "switching" here. There are many moments of rereading and reevaluating what's going on, but overall, I'm actually surprised by how consistent my reads have been this game. Anyway, hopefully that clears up what you're calling "odd."

Second thing, please read 531, 537, and 576. Please reconsider Baboon's alignment. And please tell me if, after reading those posts, you still think Baboon is town, and if town, why I'm wrong.

First thing - got it.

Second thing - here is what I am thinking.
On 531 - I don't think their certainty is excessively high. It makes sense to me - they are reading me as town, they are thinking 5-Off is telling the truth, that leaves you if there is indeed scum in the neighborhood. I'm not entirely sure if that's included in their reasoning, but my reasoning includes some of that. Stuff like the supposed plagarism thing is not why I scumread you - I think you should have mentioned that Baboon first said what you said (and I thought it was odd that you hadn't seen it), but I don't think it's inherently scummy that you didn't.
On 537 - I don't really think her read on you is that bad. It's a weak case, yes. But I am not sure that's scummy in itself.
On 576 - not really sure what to think of this post. I don't see much of relevance in it that you hadn't said before.

I will see if I can fully explain my Baboon townread tomorrow. (weekends like to make me lazy and it's late now, sorry.) And if I can't explain it, I will reevaluate. Because Four, I'm actually feeling like you're kind of making a decent case right now.

hey Lissa

is there a reason why you are vote parked on 4trouble?

~M

I have felt for a while that he has a fair chance of being scum. My scumread on him goes a bit beyond "latching onto something shiny."
Though I'm currently wondering if I might want to reevaluate. I'll leave it until tomorrow.

[Lissa]

Not really sure why Csareo thought it was a good idea to claim now. But alright then.

Second thing - here is what I am thinking.
On 531 - I don't think their certainty is excessively high. It makes sense to me - they are reading me as town, they are thinking 5-Off is telling the truth, that leaves you if there is indeed scum in the neighborhood. I'm not entirely sure if that's included in their reasoning, but my reasoning includes some of that. Stuff like the supposed plagarism thing is not why I scumread you - I think you should have mentioned that Baboon first said what you said (and I thought it was odd that you hadn't seen it), but I don't think it's inherently scummy that you didn't.
On 537 - I don't really think her read on you is that bad. It's a weak case, yes. But I am not sure that's scummy in itself.
On 576 - not really sure what to think of this post. I don't see much of relevance in it that you hadn't said before.

I will see if I can fully explain my Baboon townread tomorrow. (weekends like to make me lazy and it's late now, sorry.) And if I can't explain it, I will reevaluate. Because Four, I'm actually feeling like you're kind of making a decent case right now.

You just refuted or dismissed everything he said as irrelevant, non-alignment revealing, and null. What is this "decent case" in your eyes?

~ F-16

The "decent case" was not for Baboon being scum, it just made me wonder why I had a townread on them, because right now I can't quite remember. That's why last night after that post I felt I should reevaluate to see why I was reading Baboon as town. I know I had good reasons to think that but for some reason I can't recall what they were at this point and I need to find them and possibly reassess.

[Lissa]

Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am townreading you.
gossamer and Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am scumreading Four.
I'll go iso-find some more townish Baboon posts now.

Reading Four's posts seems to have a strange tendency to sway me towards his viewpoint and often when I read others' posts about him I ask myself why. I'm wondering if that's worrisome or if I'm just being paranoid.

[Lissa]

Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am townreading you. gossamer and Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am scumreading Four. I'll go iso-find some more townish Baboon posts now. Reading Four's posts seems to have a strange tendency to sway me towards his viewpoint and often when I read others' posts about him I ask myself why. I'm wondering if that's worrisome or if I'm just being paranoid.

How did we remind you why you're scum reading four when we haven't even become comfortable with what we think his alignment is?

When you point out...

There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You. The posts are different in approach but similar in how I felt in response (my immediate reaction to them was, "Baboon is 100% town," followed by, "wait, this is so fake, can't believe I got tricked by that").

Yeah, so, this is exactly targeted to make Tammy paranoid about me. There is no other purpose to this. Especially because I can't fathom what it could be talking about.

-Ceph

There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You.

Actually, I'd like to know how exactly and from which posts in Tales of You, you felt manipulated by Ceph. You were townreading Fox/Hound before you flaked so I don't know what you are referring to.

~ F-16

stuff like this.

Looking through Baboon's iso now.

[Lissa]

Looking through Baboon's iso now.

scratch that I'll do it in the morning. sorry, my brain sometimes likes to miss thins late at night so waiting is probably best.

[Lissa]

Spoiler: Some stuff on why Baboon is town

in anycase, I never said I liked Fonz post, but I can defintely see where he is coming from, and it is something I can expect another person of relative experience of this game to get. Especially on this site. Lissa's post can be construed in many ways, and it's more about what's not there, than what is there.

This feels like a town perspective.

Fonz, what's the problem with Lissa's post?

this interests me.

Why does that interest you and why do you like Fonz's post? For the record, I stand with FT in believing that there was nothing wrong with Lissa's post.

I liked it because it was an easy post to attack (it does a lot of pointing out the obvious, for one), and he noted this and chose not to attack it. Since I am mildly townreading Lissa, this appeals to me.

(@Mara above- that was directed to me. Maybe we should sign :S)

This is a good observation. I feel like it again comes from a town perspective. (also, noted about pointing out the obvious.)

Also, I think it was Falcon who brought it up, but I dont particularly care about wether or not 5-off has played mafia before ms, he is new

here

and that means he is new to a whole different level of mafia. I had two years experience prior to coming on here, i have made it known, and I always had a confident scum-game but it doesnt change the genuine tone that happened when he assumed everyone else had the same info in their pm that hr had in his, and it closely matches tje genuineness I had when claiming scum in wingate mansion (not sure if you read that game, but you can run it by tammy)

I really like this observation and agree about 5-off.

I figured it wasn't allowed, that's why I asked before doing it. I'll try to paraphrase, but it's gonna lose the tone of it, which is definitely relevant. He started with, "I want to clear something up. Are there any scum in here?" -- then followed that with, "I think we've caught scum on pg. 2 in Nashville. Nashville's continued reaction is really bad. I don't want to say anything because I want to see how they'll continue to react. But I'm telling you guys because I trust you." This is a bad paraphrase but it gets across the main ideas I was concerned with.

At first, I thought this guy was town. Then I realized a couple problems and felt like an idiot. If you're asking, "are there scum in here," you're not gonna start trusting people in the Intern PM when no one has even posted yet (at that time, only Lissa had posted besides Ceph). Nashville could have been IN THE PM, for all Ceph knew. The degree of trust made no sense. I didn't understand it, given an earlier post about possible scum in the PM. Suddenly, the whole, "we've caught scum already! yay!" was very manipulative, as was the, "guys, let's watch Nashville's continued reaction together, we're in this together" vibe. It felt like scum buddying up to the folks in the neighborhood.

So, alright, let's start out by throwing dirt on my tone, which you can't explain. OK, sure. Whatever.

"Are there any scum in here?" was never intended to be taken seriously. It's the equivalent of asking someone if they're town on page 1.

The Nashville thing was the first in my process of testing the waters in the neighborhood. My plan for the neighborhood, before it got vomited into the thread and completely ruined, was to start out by using it as though everyone in it was town; leaving small tidbits in it that I would prefer scum not know, but wouldn't be horribly broken up about if they did. From there, I was going to watch to see whether any non-neighbors changed their behavior in response to anything I said in the hood. So, for instance, I was criticizing Nashville's schtick continuing while they started getting pressure, as I thought the town thing to do would be to drop it and start contributing rather than try too hard at looking lighthearted. Then, if they proceeded to drop it (this is just an example, really, of what I wanted to do with the neighborhood), I suspect that someone in the neighborhood has passed them the information, giving me reason to suspect both that the player who changed is scum, and that there is a scum neighbor (IIRC this was before the presence of a scum neighbor became all but irrefutable & before I realized there could be a lurking neighbor, but those would play in as well).

-Ceph

Good points. I hadn't picked up on the details before seeing this, but I'd assumed Baboon had some sort of reason for wanting to hide that we were neighbors. And they did say in the neighborhood PT that their water testing had a purpose.
Also, FT's case (what Baboon quoted here) is ridiculous.

I believe there were also some posts in the neighborhood that I felt were townish. Will summarize those either in a few minutes or tonight.

[Lissa]

Quoting someone's posts and saying you agree with them doesn't prove they are town.

I didn't just say I agreed with them. I said I felt that they were good posts and came from a town perspective.

[Lissa]

I need to do some iso reads.

[Lissa]

wtfudgeeee

How would anatole fakeclaim the exact. same. name. as a real existing role
Unless nat effed up
Or Csareo is lying?
Or baboon and anatole are scum together and this is some sort of elaborate bus attempting to clear one?
Or this is the bastardry in this setup?
I am baffled.

[Lissa]

wtfudgeeee

How would anatole fakeclaim the exact. same. name. as a real existing role
Unless nat effed up
Or Csareo is lying?
Or baboon and anatole are scum together and this is some sort of elaborate bus attempting to clear one?
Or this is the bastardry in this setup?
I am baffled.

I'm not a huge fan of your basically sliding in to make a really safe/analysis-void contribution the minute something easy to talk about possibilities therein happens where you were pretty much entirely idle prior to it

I don't know how to reconcile this with what you did in neighbor QT which seemed pretty likely town, but you have been doing a serious fade. You said you were gonna iso some people - did you?

-b

I'm working on the isos. Sorry, was sort of busy yesterday.
That's partially typed up, but when this transpired I had to interject.
It'll be done and posted in a bit.

[Lissa]

I don't have any idea what you're saying 4t - about roles or what me and baboon share or how that relates to your neighborhood/faction.

I think I see what he's getting at.
Well... "Intern" is part of my role name. I assume it's part of all the Interns' role names. So Baboon's role name is not "Master Magician."

Nati probs just input the wrong name for the replacement pm as Anatole as a replacement. It should have been obvious that baboon wasn't a magician or yesterday would have been a different conversation.

This seems like the most logical explanation right now.

[Lissa]

gossamer - Leaning town. Not super sure but some of their posts just have a townish feel to them. They come off as genuine (not including when they are being sarcastic of course).

Spoiler: A few posts of note

I thought these were townish posts. Genuine tone and (mostly in the second one) good, well-reasoned observations.

All right I read the game! I'm so proud of myself.

I have some thoughts on the baboon/FT stuff but going to hold onto it. I'd rather let falcon interact with four trouble organically and get a read there while talking with him about it before I say anything. I do think that baboon pride is town though.

Anatole - hi! You should start checking westeros boards as we're actually starting to play again. I don't get your scum read on baboon. Does knowing that it's Mara who played in time shift two change your perception at all? (Or did you already know that?)

I still think cutey shark is town and Nashville dreams. I'm actually a little flattered that they really just want to NAIL DOWN MY ALIGNMENT. I'm rather self-absorbed, and like that they seem to have read me and picked up on certain tells about me. I said last night it felt a bit prideful that they think they've picked up some of my tells and are trying to apply it here. It's just something I think is more likely to come from town. Also I'm a tone reader, so it's kinda kindred. I'm still gonna have fun with them, I'd like to lock elbows, skip through the park and sing happy

country

pop songs.

Leaning town on creativity. I actually like fonz's argument. Also another person I'm going to laugh at calling me scum. Lighten up. I'm having fun.

I think that fonz probably cursed out nati if he drew scum after not playing so long as I know he wasn't entirely happy to draw it in swagtown. That doesn't mean a whole lot to his alignment but it might inform his tone. I still need to check out swagtown to answer falcons question though.

Will talk to falcon later to see where he wants to move our vote.

Just re-read half the game (up to page 13). Reading the rest now.

@ FT, I'm townreading Baboon because Mara's conviction feels genuine. Tammy's also played quite a few games with Mara and has her as town based on meta. She also liked Post 301 as something Mara is unlikely to post as scum. Post 311 is another reason I'm townreading Baboon. If they are scum, it makes little sense for them to limit their mislynch options within the neighborhood. Here are two games with scum-Mara for comparison. I played in the second one and Tammy played in both. From what I remember from the one I played in, she doesn't have the same conviction and certainty when she is making pushes as scum. Compare with NY 169 where she spent quite a bit of time pushing me when we were both town and it came across as very genuine. I also feel that Mara often hides her real reasons and gives up surface level reasoning so she doesn't truly give away how she reads people. Also, what about Honeybee's Post 308 resonated?

@ Baboon, 5-Off isn't newb scum. New to mafiascum maybe, but he's played plenty of mafia offsite and has a reasonably developed scumgame.

@ Lissa, can you explain your townread on Baboon and scumread on FT?

@ Cutty, I agree with your point on IHNC in Post 274 and I lean slight town on it. I think it was ika who posted it but I'm still wary of townreading a hydra with Beast for it. If he is scum, he can certainly drop fake towntells. In Mafia with the Quickness, Beast used his neighborhood as a hydra QT with Marquis and was scum then, so I wouldn't put it past him to drop a fake towntell.

~ F-16

And in this post:

I had a paranoid theory about lissa but I'm still pickng out briars.

Basically fonz was the one who came out and asked if everyone disbelieved the claim that 5-off made and that made everyone think lissa looks town. But I wondered, since scum have day talk, if lissa would have listed what happened in the neighborhood and her partners told her to react like that and then used it to clear her.

But I think that's a far fetched thought even for me. Except I don't not really

Their mentioning this paranoid theory like they did strikes me as a townish thing to do. I'm not sure scum would want to potentially draw attention to themselves with a paranoid theory about a near-universal townread.

Right. Hood people. This is reasonably important.

When 5-off said there was scum in the 'hood, did anyone say that their role PM didn't mention anything about that? If so, who did so first?

I paraphrased this post.

You're asking me to rationalize a paranoid theory. Lissa looked town to everyone for saying it? That's a motivation. I mean, as scum, she couldn't know that every town wouldn't have that in the role pm, but I mean yeah. I kinda like lissa anyway as she said she wentooking through my meta and couldn't find what others said was there when I kinda think it would be easier to go yeah it's there but yeah not going to stop that part of my brain that goes THEY SET IT ALL UP!!!

Here they remain paranoid. It feels genuine and town that they are thinking like this even though the theory itself is incorrect.

Anatole - probably town. Iso feels mostly townish and I like how he's stuck to his reads, even though I think at least his scumreads are likely wrong. His conviction makes them feel genuine. Want to give him a night at the very least, though I wouldn't be interested in lynching him today anyway. (The whole role thing with Anatole/Baboon/Csareo doesn't really directly affect my read on him much.)

Csareo - Leaning slightly town. The claim is clearly not fake, it just doesn't guarantee he's town.

Nashville Dreams - Leaning scum. I'm not getting town vibes from most of their posts right now. Though not sure what to think of the way IHNC is tunneling them.

Honey bee - Her few posts have been fine but she needs to say more. (yes I know I'm sort of one to talk.) Null.

Cutty Shark - Leaning slightly town.

5-Off - Leaning town. Partly because of the neighborhood information he shared, but also his posts seem townish. Side note, that avatar thing was priceless

The Fonz - Probably town. Most of his posts give me strong town vibes.

I have no creativity - wtf are they doing. I was leaning slightly town on most of their posts but their recent posts are odd. They are tunneling nashville in a way that to me seems incredibly emotional and I'm not sure how to read it. Null maybe leaning slightly town?

Mr_Ree - null. Want to see what his replacement says.

FourTrouble - His posts alternate between making me feel like he might be town and making me go "nope, he's scum." Overall still leaning scum.

Baboon - Still town.

In summary
leaning scum: four, nashville
null: ree, honey bee, ihnc
null-town: csareo, cutty shark
leaning/probably town: anatole, gossamer, baboon, fonz, 5-off

Would be good with a lynch of four or nashville I think. Might be okay lynching honey bee. My view on Ree depends on what his replacement says. I'm not sure about ihnc. Do not want to lynch gossamer, baboon, anatole, fonz or 5-off today barring some very good reason, would rather not lynch csareo or cutty shark.
I probably have waaay too many strong townreads. >-< It's just easier for me to get townreads D1 than scumreads.

[Lissa]

This is frustrating as all get out for a post.

A) You recognize that Csareo isn't confirmed town.
B) You are scumreading me and I'm the only other player saying he's not confirmed town, making that message much harder to pass onto the group.

It also doesn't make sense how you can scumread me while I'm the biggest one making sure we don't townread a scum.

Yet, scum even if Csareo is town, wouldn't be engaging in such a nuanced analysis. If Csareo is scum, it kinda works but only if I'm radically wrong on the scumreads.

Side note: I hate spontaneous readwalls by people not voted and not a catchup...doesn't really matter though. Totally a null tell but each time I see it, they ping scum.

I'm also the inverse, it's easier to get solid scumreads for me. That's because scum like voting me though.

... you're the only other one saying Csareo is not confirmed town?
That's not the impression I got, so I reread to check.
gossamer said the way he claimed made them not really want to lynch him. I think at least one other person said something similar.
Though AK did question you still thinking he was scum after nat confirmed she made an error.
I don't see everyone calling Csareo conftown. If I'm missing posts where that occurred, feel free to point them out.

So I think you being "the only other player saying he's not confirmed town" is a bit of an exaggeration. However, you still make a good point and this post feels townish. I think you can go in my null pile for now.

Also.

Bork, I think FT is town. We'll move to IHNC if you do. You think Csareo is town, and can't vote there. I can't vote FT. This is meeting in the middle.

-Titus

Why is FT town?

[Lissa]

Here's an unofficial vote count I've been keeping

---
Nashville Dreams(2): 5-Off, i have no creativity
Honey bee(1): gossamer wings, FourTrouble
Cutty Shark(0):
FourTrouble(5): Lissa, The Fonz, Baboon Pride, Cutty Shark, Anatole Kuragin
5-Off(0):
AnatoleKuragin(1): Honey bee
The Fonz(0):
i have no creativity(0):
gossamer wings(0):
Baboon Pride(0):
Mr_Ree(0):
Csareo(1): Nashville Dreams
Lissa(0):

Not Voting(2): Mr_Ree, Csareo

With thirteen alive, it is seven to lynch.
---

I think that's right
So Four is at L-2, yeah

[Lissa]

FT has 45 votes

theres a neigbohood compiled of 4t,5-off,baboon, and someone else and theres one scum bound to be in htere by the mod

It's Four, Baboon, 5-off and me. (And there's a possibility there could be a lurking scum, as we weren't given a formal list of its occupants.)

[Lissa]

Yes, she admitted to a mod error in thread.

[Lissa]

Argh.
Alright. We have a bit less than 24 hours left. We need to collaborate and reach a lynch.
FT has four votes, Honey bee has three, Nashville has two.
I want a FT lynch. However, I would be willing to vote for a deadline lynch of Honey or Nashville if that is the consensus we come to.

[Lissa]

Look.
We have.
Less than FIVE HOURS.
We need to figure out what we are doing.

This is how the votes stand:
Nashville Dreams(2): 5-Off, I have no creativity
Honey bee(3): gossamer wings, FourTrouble, Anatole Kuragin
Cutty Shark(0):
FourTrouble(4): Lissa, The Fonz, Baboon Pride, Cutty Shark
5-Off(0):
AnatoleKuragin(1): Honey bee
The Fonz(0):
i have no creativity(0):
gossamer wings(0):
Baboon Pride(0):
fferyllt(0):
Csareo(1): Nashville Dreams
Lissa(0):

Not Voting(2): fferyllt, Csareo

I want Four lynched.
I will vote Honey for a deadline compromise.
I will strongly consider voting Csareo for a deadline compromise.
I will vote Nashville for a deadline compromise, though I don't think that's the best option.

[Lissa]

A deadline extension would be great. I hope we get one.

[Lissa]

Then we get the csareo replacement, who will also want time to catch up before voting, and before we know it, we're four or five days further down the line. And another ten or so pages to read through.

I mean, I suppose one is better than not one. But I can see why Nati might not want to give another. I was really singling out Lissa's post for its absolute lack of content rather than criticising the idea.

I made a post with actual content before that one though.

I just don't want us to end up with a deadline no-lynch.

[Lissa]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Honey bee

(that is L-2)

I'd switch back to FT if there was support for that, but it doesn't look like he's getting lynched today.

[Lissa]

Who thinks Honey will actually claim?

I kind of doubt she'll even show up again to do so. Though it'd be nice.

[Lissa]

Yes, if you are here to claim, Honey Bee, claim.

[Lissa]

I can't decide which was the mafia nk and which was the vig-kill. Leaning towards FT being nk'd as he tends to be a wildcard.

~ F-16

I don't see why FT would be killed unless his reads were lightning good (and they were pretty fluid through EoD which makes it seem even less likely he'd be killed for that)
He was almost lynched yesterday
He is part of the neighborhood which makes having a PR outside of that less likely

Someone said ika was crumbing a PR but I can't find it in his ISO

-b

Agreed. I've gotta think it was a vig. He would be a really really odd scum kill.
I'm thinking we've got one scumteam and a vig, and likely neutral/s.

Also that means one of these things:
1. 5-off's "there is scum in the neighborhood" is true and he is town - thus either baboon is scum or there is a lurkerscum in there. I want to lean towards the latter because I think baboon is town... I don't know what to think.
2. 5-off is lying scum.
3. "rumors" is just that. It's not mod lying if it's not flat-out confirmed, is it? Hmm.
4. It's a really long-running town gambit in which case TELL US NOW 5-OFF DAMMIT. but I doubt that's the case at this point, I'm just not thinking it's a good idea to rule anything out completely yet.

ika would be an odd kill if he hadn't flat out stated he had a pr. he IS still an odd kill. he was seriously tunneling nashville and not much else by end of day.

Can someone from the neighborhood post what FT's last thoughts were before he was killed?

~ F-16

Unfortunately nothing has been said in there by anyone since the 3rd around when we were outed. :/

Also either scum blew a strongman last night or the mod fuckup involves ika being dead when he should not be dead (which is actually pretty plausible)

-b

I was assuming that was the mod error. Considering it was ika that was given an honorary win.


I need to look back at people's interactions with Honey.

[Lissa]

I can't follow the 4t or bp cases, all the evidence on either side is just too soft for me. I wanna say that this implies that they're both town and the scum isn't particularly striving for one over the other. and BP I still don't see a reason to use the neighborhood as a lynch pool, do you really think up to 4 lynches is worth a scum (or possibly none)?

Wondering if this implies that one intern is indeed scum? She said she didn't want the neighborhood used as a lynch pool. We already knew there was supposedly a scum intern though...

My feelings after reading the thread is that the last few pages haven't made me like ak and csareo. Ak I have been perusing their iso and I haven't seen anywhere that they're actively pushing to find someone's alignment or directing their efforts anywhere else. Their vote is parked on baboon and the conviction that he finds about a few meta reads and one post is totally wrong to me. Ak do you have any other scum reads? And how do you feel about fonz's latest posts?

vote: Anatole kuragin

This gives me townfeels about AK, it could be a bus but I don't think so? I already thought AK was town though.
And she called out him being vote parked on baboon... an intern... hm.
Not sure what to think about the whole item thing with AK though. Is it all a red herring? I got a townread on him from his posting.

Gw:
The reason why it's wrong is because (again) their interests betray their vote. Ak has admitted that he's not the best at day one, but instead of going about figuring out his read on baboon or doubting himself, he keeps it parked on baboon and never gives it a second thought. In other words his thinking and what he's saying doesn't match up.

As for a full reads list, other than Ak and Csareo I don't have any other scum reads. The only person I am comfortable completely ignoring for today's lynch is Four trouble: his aggression and behavior feel natural to me. Otherwise I am not a big fan of town reads, so I have anyone else as null.

Again mentioning AK's vote park on Baboon...
is it just a coincidence that it has to do with his vote park

on baboon?

An intern? She said she didn't want the neighborhood used as a lynch pool and called Four and Baboon both town. Four has flipped town.
I can't figure out if this is some sort of attempt at a white knight on Baboon or an attempt to subtly defend a scumbuddy. She was definitely white knighting Four most of the day... so I'm not sure.

I am here to claim.

VOTE: fourtrouble

Csareo is probably town for replacing out. Reads would be easy for him to fake for an end day, and I doubt he'd leave if he's scum. Either way I'm not gonna lynch an empty slot.

Fourtrouble is the only other person I can accept lynching today.

Massive "reads" flip here...
Post 1011: Csareo and AK are scum, Four is town
Post 1937: Csareo is probtown, Four is scum LYNCH LYNCH
There's a while between them though... Not sure that really tells us anything anyway.

That was kind of useless for the most part. I need to look at others' interactions with her, this was just easier to start with.

And I'm wondering if all this + four's death was some sort of an attempt to frame baboon? Sort of a strange one if it was.
I THOUGHT baboon was town but now I'm not sure.
Is this crazy?
I dunno if anyone really does NKA here. Is this silly of me to even be thinking of?

I am really not sure what to think.

[Lissa]

5-off, actually something I didn't find in my catch up was some elaboration on whether your role PM makes it dead certain there is scum in the neighborhood.

Did it leave any wriggle room wrt Nati's statement that the mod won't lie? As in whether your role pm is explicit with respect to there being scum in the neighborhood, or is it sort of a maybe?

This.
This is important.

He called it "rumors" in the neighborhood. I'd like him to clarify about that/if he thinks there's any room for doubt.

Also honestly I wouldn't have been surprised to die last night. Not because I think I'm a big scary town player (I know I'm not) but because I am a near universal townread. I did not expect the kills there were.

Executive Producer

Name?

I still want to see if Titus has an actual reason for saying that all executives are scum.

Yeah. it's called our role PM. It pretty much says executives are scum.

Mala not so sure that we should vote or unvote. Let the mod clarify something.

~Titus

Could be a flavor miller maybe?
I'm not sure.

[Lissa]

I think there's a pretty good chance that Lissa is in the same faction as Honey Bee -

In Honey Bee's 12 posts she non-chalantly defends Lissa in several and from what I can tell never addresses her once.

As I said yesterday before we lynched Honey Bee - Lissa gave me a similar vibe early on that looked like trying to give really generic statements and reads and stay under the radar.

Can anyone in the hood say how long the neighborhood PT was up before 5-off gave the info that there was likely scum in the neighborhood?

Where did she defend me? I can't find it.

I ISOed her. This is all I can find where she even referenced me.

-Fonz– I totally agree with ft that not voting lissa was bad. Hesitance to vote always is a scum tell to me and the no reasoning on why rubs me in the wrong way. Plus there's really no point to paying attention to post restrictions anyways so I am perturbed why he focused on players who mentioned it.
Fonz needs to answer FT's q when he get's back.

@ fonz:
Lissa was not in any danger of getting lynched nor did anybody even scum read her beforehand. Why would you consider voting her to be “hounding”? What I've gathered from my experience and advice in these games is that scum have a certain self consciousness when it comes to their vote. I vote where my biggest suspicion lies, because that's what makes a townie threatening to scum, what makes my words actually have any worth to anyone. But you felt that it was better to keep your vote on someone that you were wanting a reaction to, even though your vote literally looked like a no content vote, same as his. You admitted that lissa was scummier, so why is voting her counterproductive to a reaction?
To me, it looked like you didn't want to be accused of attacking weak targets, but didn't also want to look like you were not pursuing anyone. Hence the hesitation.

And she was calling out Fonz for not voting me. I wouldn't call that defending me.

aaand I will check on that last bit.

[Lissa]

I'm pretty sure Honey's bit of chainsaw defense (is that what that was?) of me, if anything, was a white knight.
She defended/white knighted Four too, a lot more strongly. Until the end of day when he was the only other viable wagon, then she hopped on.

I'm not convinced there's a lurking scum but I would like to hear more from 5-off about his claim in the hood before I really make my mind up there. In a game this sized I think 4 is the max we're going to have in a neighborhood but obviously that's just speculation.

agree that 5 seems high. but in her last normal mini nati had an ask town 3 player neighborhood. not totally ruling 5 out.

5 seems high but plausible right now actually, especially with the whole no-list-of-occupants-given thing.
I need 5-Off to clarify whether the whole "scum in the neighborhood" was phrased as confirmed/definite. I know he said it was phrased as "rumors." If it's confirmed true, I'd say there's a fair chance of lurkerscum in there.

[Lissa]

Can anyone in the hood say how long the neighborhood PT was up before 5-off gave the info that there was likely scum in the neighborhood?

5-Off first posted about 10 hours after the neighborhood thread opened, and immediately gave the info that there was a "double agent" among us with a query about why Baboon was trusting us.

[Lissa]

Yes, me, Baboon and Four had already posted at that point.

[Lissa]

So I have a night action, that I can go and bless another player, but my PM doesn't tell me whether or not that actually does anything. I targeted Gossamer Wings last night. I'm not sure how much of the result PM I can report, but basically I was told that when I got to their house to bless them they were acting oddly, ignored my attempts to communicate with them, and left the house by car, and may or may not have had a passenger - I couldn't tell for sure. So (this is my own conjecture, and not part of the info PM) this, in combo with what F-16 himself reports, suggests to me that he was in some way drugged or hypnotised into being involved in the scum NK.

So I'm guessing this is the bastard element; shit is communicated via really vague narratives instead of clear results

-b

This does line up with what F-16 himself said... We just don't know what it means.

Clearly that's the case.

I saw your crumbs immediately as well. Didn't say anything as I didn't want to point it out unnecessarily.

Which IMO scumsides the fuck out of this setup

-b

Maybe it's a townsided setup role-wise to counter that?
I have no idea. Lots of town power or not, it's difficult and weakened if it's never definite. o.o

We're going to have to claim actions fairly early here otherwise we risk getting absolutely no information out of them

-b

You might be right.

[Lissa]

<Mafia Win Condition> You win when the mafia controls the majority of living members of the game and no other factions remain.

Am I reading too much into "controls" here? Is that typical? I'm looking at other games' wincons and it's stuff like "when mafia obtains majority" or "you win when all town members are eliminated." I'm naturally a little uneasy then at the prospect that a player may be being "controlled" in a manner in which they seem to be brainwashed or drugged as fonz described it.

Though we could just be being paranoid, that seems a little worrisome.

Honey's PM doesn't give any indication that their night kill involves implicating a third player in the kill in some way.

True...


p-edit:

From a newbie nat recently hosted -

Welcome!

You are a Mafia Goon.

Your partner is PLAYER, who is a Mafia Goon/Roleblocker.

You share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You also share a factional QT, located here, which you may talk in during pregame and night phases.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

Ohh.
That's... interesting.

[Lissa]

I'm guessing either

a) another member of the scum/mafia team (honey/CEO faction) has a role that can gain them control over players

or

b) it has to do with the serial killer/third faction and the second of the two kills

I would say both minority factions may have some control ability based on the way that PM is worded but that seems like it would be way too unbalanced as the assumption that only one does already fucks up investigations and both scum factions can apparently kill as well.

It sure sounds like that's the case.
I'm not sure which one to think it is. It's hard to tell; we don't really seem to have all that much clear info.

Also, when I was rereading honey's role PM I noticed that that scum faction's kill ability seems to have a "murder/kill" flavor, so it sounds like Four died to that scum faction? He was the one that was "brutally murdered." IHNC was "forcefully relocated."

[Lissa]

Nope, nothing about any fears. Nothing that seems to imply anything else either, I've read it over several times and I can't pick up on any game related anything from it.
Basically my story is, my friend applied for a job here and convinced me to apply with him and I got the job instead of him.

The results PM I got describes my attempt to communicate with someone as not one which someone not under the influence of something would be able to ignore, and that the way F-16 was driving indicated he wasn't even aware I was there. Trying not to go too close to the line, but the contents of my PM are not ambiguous in that.

On the 'maybe the amount of power is townsided' you might be right. Part of why I had no hesitation in hammering Honey is that it seemed to me unclear that there would be any pure VTs in this setup at all.

I'm not sure what that implies. It lines up with a possible "control" ability and with F-16's own report of bruises, headache and dirt.

And yeah I'm thinking we likely don't have any VTs. Just a bunch of unclear power.

Agreed Bork, I want to hear more from nashville about that.

Also, given that IHNC apparently has a one-shot kill immunity, does that mean they were targeted twice?

I'm pretty sure that was the mod error and why IHNC was given an honorary win. They weren't supposed to die last night, I think.

[Lissa]

My character is afraid of the CEO phasing them out so maybe

a) mafia kill flavor is "forcefully relocated" as in canceling/phasing out/etc. which would make the other party's kill murder/killing

b) the way the CEO related stuff

In that end, you've payed off a few staff at the station to help you swing 'majority control' to you...

and the wincon about control seem to imply something more sinister than just stock control/majority voting. So I'm kinda inclined to say the third party/kill faction just kills and maybe the CEO faction can kill and potentially recruit or use some sort of mind control flavor to implicate townies in kills or maybe the goonish roles themselves are mind controlled? I think I'm getting a little tinfoily here but this setting is actually starting to get pretty interesting.

I don't think it would be anything more than maybe a 1-shot recruiter (corporate recruiter? hah) IF THAT because there's already a killing third party. Even with these power roles I don't see town power getting anywhere near the scum factions if it's stronger than that.

I think ihnc is definitely the ceo kill though based on the cancellation euphemism

But based on honey's role PM's description of the factional nightkill, it looks to me like that faction's nightkill flavor is "murder/kill." Did anyone else get that or is that just me?
I'm not sure.

My PM says precisely nothing bad about the station

-b

Same with mine.

[Lissa]

sorry, I'm slow.

Hm, you're right lissa. I think there is some lack of parity between implied flavor of kills from the PM and flavor of kills from kill descriptions. Unless the flavor is different for a different member of that faction?

Seems like it.
That's possible. Difficult to tell with one scum flip.

I am really surprised a killing third party would exist in a game where we can allegedly win with 'neutrals', depends on definition on neutral I guess

I kinda feel like we're getting nowhere definitive with this

-b

That is sort of weird.

This page makes me think 'Anatole as wizard SK who can do mind control' is a distinct possibility.

Do you think I would introduce mind control as a possibility if I was the one doing it?

Good point... though there is certainly some WIFOM possibility there.

"Arrange to be taken out of commission for a while' could totally fit the IHNC kill.

We can't win with 'neutrals' though. Town WC is all mafia and neutrals dead.

good point.
I'm a little baffled here as to what faction killed who. It's really hard to tell because yeah, honey bee's listed factional kill flavor could kind of fit either kill.
And do we even know for sure that we HAVE a second faction/third party killer and not a vig?

I doubt a SK would be considered "neutral." It's an anti-town third. Survivor, for example, would be "neutral."

[Lissa]

This page makes me think 'Anatole as wizard SK who can do mind control' is a distinct possibility.

Do you think I would introduce mind control as a possibility if I was the one doing it?

Sure, except you didn't, I did.

oh.
Good point.

Yeah. SK def doesn't fit under that; kill flavor kind of does imply SK on FT though

-b

Yeah that would fit...
I'm still unsure though. The kill flavor isn't exactly all-telling.

I could buy one of the informed roles (5-off, Oka) being third-party of some kind

But this is all just spitballing

-b

I suggested 5-off might be a neutral third waaay back and I think Baboon agreed it was a plausible theory.
It's very possible 5-off or OkaPoka is just that.

[Lissa]

Does nobody else have any mention whatsoever of items in their PM?

My PM does not mention items. If that wasn't already clear.

[Lissa]

also I have reason to believe there could be a scum role that is ascetic/bulletproof which would be consistent with your attempt to track F16

What is this reason to believe that?

The downside of massclaim is there's usually 1-2 town roles who are nerfed if the scum know about them, and even suggesting a massclaim forces them to either get outed by the massclaim itself, or to flag up their existence by objecting. That's why I'd probably wait one more day.

Yeah, we're likely better off waiting one more day for massclaim.

[Lissa]

That it mentions Divine Intervention specifically is interesting.

That is pretty much what I thought, considering your role.

[Lissa]

As I said I'm definitely finding baboon a bit scummier now by previously mentioned connections to Honey, both in her posting - the stuff I pointed out in post 2010 - and Baboon's posting - stuff like this:

Baboon saying this of Honey near the end sticks out:

It's strange to me that HB is becoming a legitimate wagon. I feel like she's your standard low charisma day 1 lynch. Much prefer FT/AK/Nashville. I know I'm not super engaged here, but, it looks to me like we need to start consolidating.

-Ceph

Kind of suggests the wagon is bad, and implies people should 'consolidate' onto other players, without directly attacking the wagon or criticising anyone on it. This is a bad post now we know Honey's scum. Def rather lynch Baboon than Shark, I think.

But I hesitate. It could be buddying/white knighting on Honey's part that Baboon bought; it certainly wouldn't be the only white knighting she did.

I need to do a little rereading I think.

[Lissa]

leaning scum:

four

null:

ree

(ffery),

honey bee

,

ihnc

, nashville
null-town:

csareo

(oka), cutty shark
leaning/probably town: anatole,

gossamer

(f-16), baboon, fonz, 5-off

Looking at this I really I need to reread (argh)
my only real scumread flipped town.
Clearly reevaluation is in order.
especially as I am already doubting some of these reads.
And it looks like I probably have some incorrect townreads. I tend to have a lot of townreads D1 and often one ends up being wrong, so that doesn't shake me. The question is which one/s.

[Lissa]

*I really need to reread

[Lissa]

I need to reread but I don't know where to start.
Isos are easier to process and draw reads from
but only reading them misses some interactions
So I need to reread the full thread also
all ninety-one pages.
Argh

Hopefully I can get some good reads by doing that. I'm better at getting good reads, especially scumreads, a bit later in the game, so hopefully I will be able to get better reads now.

[Lissa]

Can you guys re-read your PMs and make sure you don't have an item to give?

Done. I do not have an item to give, sorry.

I'm really wondering if, assuming you're telling the truth, the whole item thing in your role is a red herring. Not sure though.

[Lissa]

I need to read back still, sorry! I want to take a close look at Baboon and Anatole. I will definitely be doing that today.

[Lissa]

I need to read back still, sorry! I want to take a close look at Baboon and Anatole. I will definitely be doing that today.

why these two in particular?

Baboon was seeming town to me yesterday but there were some interactions between them/Honey that make me wonder. Plus the neighborhood thing; though I think a lurking scum in there is quite plausible, I'm not sure.
Anatole seemed town to me day one but I'm wondering a little because of various things.

I think I also want to look at Nashville, actually.

I am starting on this now.

[Lissa]

Alright I'm sorry, long story short I am pretty busy today and was busier over the weekend than I expected.

Here are some thoughts~
I want 5-off's replacement to clarify if his role PM confirms there is scum in the neighborhood. and I want to see what they say, in general. I am still not sure about baboon.
Cutty is probably town. F-16 and Fonz are probably town. I think ffery is town.
The thing with csareo and anatole seems too crazy to be made up, the question is whether csareo/oka's role is town. I'm not really liking oka's posting. So not sure what to think of that slot right now.
I'm still leaning towards thinking anatole is town because 1. csareo/anatole thing 2. fakeclaiming an apparently confirmable role would be dangerous wouldn't it? and he seems to genuinely believe someone out there has an item for him. 3. I just generally find his posting town for the most part.

Okay, I probably won't be posting again until tomorrow (Wednesday) afternoon. sorry.

[Lissa]

Lissa's somewhat in the same boat, but I feel like her MO is more to just go 'hear hear' on people's points mixed in with some promises for more activity that inevitably don't pan out. If not for the neighborhood thing (and it really is worth talking about the fakeclaim point to figure out whether or not Lissa-scum had immediate recourse to be comfortable with saying what she did in response to 5-off's softclaim about scum in the hood. If what ffery is saying about fakeclaims being generated on request as a mod-meta thing for Nati, then Lissa might just be town again)

Yeah, this. If she feels about scum roles the way I do, tooth-pulling is involved in actually working up substantive posts.

I don't have issues coming up with substantive posts as scum. I actually really like playing scum roles. I gather we don't feel the same way about them?
(I just ended up more swamped this week than I expected )

Baboon was seeming town to me yesterday but there were some interactions between them/Honey that make me wonder.

Were you gonna elaborate on this?

-b

I believe I did somewhat at the beginning of Day.
Here.
That was just Honey's posts. And I didn't have time to do it earlier but now I've gone back through Baboon's posts to see if there's anything there or if it was one sided.
The one thing I noticed was this:

It's strange to me that HB is becoming a legitimate wagon. I feel like she's your standard low charisma day 1 lynch. Much prefer FT/AK/Nashville. I know I'm not super engaged here, but, it looks to me like we need to start consolidating.

-Ceph

But I'm still thinking Baboon is town. Townies can be wrong, and this didn't look like scum defending scum. It sounded genuine, I think because of its casualness.

We have time and I'll discuss other reads later but I want to talk about Nashville:

I get the suspicion there and the concerns about them but there are two things that make me sure that they are town:

1) The way Mala initially tried to sort Tammy was incredibly genuine and knowing Mala as both town and scum, I think it is well outside the range of what scum-Mala is able to fake. It felt like she truly wanted to figure out our affiliation and was doing all sorts of odd and unusual things to get a read on us. As scum, Mala is a rather low profile player. She doesn't bring attention to herself. She pops in once in while to post decent-looking analysis of the game. She is emotionally more subdued than she is as town.

2) I talked about this one already but the way she voted us at the start of D2 for a claim.

I haven't figured out who I want to lynch but I strongly prefer that we not lynch Nashville Dreams and consider other alternatives. I'd be shocked if they flipped scum.

This sounds really genuine.
Doesn't mean I'm completely sure it's correct, but it reads as genuine to me.

I am seeing neutral 3rd parties under my bed because of setup paranoia. I can see 5-off's play and to some extent oka's play fitting that mold.

I could see both of them being third party. Their roles are ones I could see third party having. I'll take a look at their play and see if I agree there.

If I am holding an item I am essentially a strong-arm vigilante but the actual action is called "Magic Trick". I can perform a kill as a night action and nothing short of divine intervention can stop it. This is why it would be very easy to prove my role if I had an item.

I still wonder about the whole divine intervention thing.

I think it's just a figure of speech tbh, basically saying it goes through both ascetic/roleblock and bulletproof

Maybe
I still wonder. It's just a really strange coincidence and (if it's real) I can't help but feel it's intentional. The connection could be a red herring though.

Please tell me if I missed any questions or anything.

[Lissa]

Nashville Dreams - Leaning scum. I'm not getting town vibes from most of their posts right now. Though not sure what to think of the way IHNC is tunneling them.

Honey bee - Her few posts have been fine but she needs to say more. (yes I know I'm sort of one to talk.) Null.

FourTrouble - His posts alternate between making me feel like he might be town and making me go "nope, he's scum." Overall still leaning scum.

In summary
leaning scum: four, nashville
null: ree, honey bee, ihnc
null-town: csareo, cutty shark
leaning/probably town: anatole, gossamer, baboon, fonz, 5-off

Would be good with a lynch of four or nashville I think. Might be okay lynching honey bee.

My view on Ree depends on what his replacement says. I'm not sure about ihnc. Do not want to lynch gossamer, baboon, anatole, fonz or 5-off today barring some very good reason, would rather not lynch csareo or cutty shark.
I probably have waaay too many strong townreads. >-< It's just easier for me to get townreads D1 than scumreads.

Argh.
Alright. We have a bit less than 24 hours left. We need to collaborate and reach a lynch.
FT has four votes, Honey bee has three, Nashville has two.
I want a FT lynch.

However, I would be willing to vote for a deadline lynch of Honey or Nashville if that is the consensus we come to.

Look.
We have.
Less than FIVE HOURS.
We need to figure out what we are doing.

This is how the votes stand:
Nashville Dreams(2): 5-Off, I have no creativity
Honey bee(3): gossamer wings, FourTrouble, Anatole Kuragin
Cutty Shark(0):
FourTrouble(4): Lissa, The Fonz, Baboon Pride, Cutty Shark
5-Off(0):
AnatoleKuragin(1): Honey bee
The Fonz(0):
i have no creativity(0):
gossamer wings(0):
Baboon Pride(0):
fferyllt(0):
Csareo(1): Nashville Dreams
Lissa(0):

Not Voting(2): fferyllt, Csareo

I want Four lynched.

I will vote Honey for a deadline compromise.

I will strongly consider voting Csareo for a deadline compromise.

I will vote Nashville for a deadline compromise, though I don't think that's the best option.

Lissa, can you explain your trajectory on Nashville and Honeybee, specifically the parts I bolded.

You first had Nashville as scum and Honeybee as null.
Then you were equally willing to lynch both.
Then you were willing to compromise on both but didn't think Nashville was the best option.

So, what changed that Honeybee went consistently higher in your suspect list with time and Nashville went lower?

Nashville replied to my original read list with a post I felt was townish. Honey bee I don't think was much of a wagon when I made my reads list, but as that wagon gained support I evaluated a little more and became increasingly okay with it.

Also, in the second two posts that I quoted, you clearly say that you want an FT lynch. If so, why did you vote the wagon that he was pushing as opposed to the one that he wasn't on?

There no longer seemed to be enough support for a Four lynch. I felt the honey bee wagon was more likely to reach majority at the point I changed my vote - cutty shark had already changed their vote, making honey the bigger wagon - and at that point deadline was what, five hours away? I think I was at the point of being willing to lynch anyone not a townread.

[Lissa]

Can we like lynch 5-off

Saves the mod the trouble of having to replace the slot >>

~R

I'm thinking I would be surprisingly okay with that.

We'll get to see his role pm and it's exact wording. If he's town we can see whether it seems to imply a neighborhood scum is guaranteed. If he's scum great.

And the slot has needed replacement for close to a week. Apparently nobody wants to replace into a stalling 100 page mini theme.

[Lissa]

Not saying he couldn't be mafia. Heck, that would be fucking great.

This is pretty much what I was thinking

Ie -
If he's town, oh well but with nobody in the slot and nobody seeming to want to be (he's been being replaced for a week) he's no use to town anyway and we can see his role pm stuff if he's dead
If he's third party, fine
If he's scum, great

[Lissa]

VOTE: 5 off

[Lissa]

I analyzed the honey wagon and what surrounded it starting on like page 71.

Fonz interactions with honey strengthen my townread on him.
Baboon 1787 pings me every time I read it. I've been brushing it off, but I'm starting to think that's a mistake. But baboon's not the one I'm most worried about right now.
Csareo 1806 sets off alarms for me knowing four and honeys alignments. I know ffery already said so then, but let me elaborate on why I think so now. He says he'd be willing to reluctantly vote four only because deadline but doesn't even seem to mention the other wagon (honey). It looks like scum not wanting to be too associated with a mislynch, but thinking it won't look as bad if he hops on "because deadline"; and completely ignoring the honey wagon and discussion, perhaps intentionally in the hopes it won't take off any further.
The conversation then got derailed off of honey
Csareo then said he couldn't keep up and was replacing out
Then there were a couple of other things that made me find Csareo scummy. On page 78.
1908 was weird/bad, wouldn't his role pm mention if his predecessor got to choose the people to get flavor on? I'd expect that to be clearly shown in the description of his ability. This rings as fake.
On his role name flavor discussion - flavor miller is possible, but he looks pretty scummy so I don't think so.
Okas behavior has been mildly scummy. By itself I think it would make him maybe a weak scumread, not even sure enough for a vote. But it's certainly not doing anything to counter the scummy stuff Csareo did/said.
tl;dr Oka is probscum.
VOTE: okapoka

Sorry for post numbers instead of quotes. Phoneposting.

[Lissa]

Spoiler: When do we tell him that...

his two "scummiest" have both flipped town?

(I am glad he is actually doing SOMETHING though)

[Lissa]

Cutty - I am kinda busy this morning and was just sticking my head in for a moment. I didn't have time to respond to everything that had happened in the last page of the thread, but that was right there and amusing and, yeah, easy to respond to so I responded.

I'm down with lynching 5 off.
I'd still like Oka lynched.

I agree that we need to do something.
VOTE: 5 off

[Lissa]

I feel like significant things happened to the gamestate in the last 2-3 pages, and apparently they didn't catch your eye.

I wanted your thoughts on what happened with that wagon.

I don't think that 5-Off wagon was significant things happening to the game state. It was discussed before; I think at least some of the people who voted for 5-Off when they did just decided they were at the point where they wanted to make something happen.

Now the Baboon votes, on the other hand, was more of something I'd call significant things happening to the gamestate. It seemed a little more unexpected.
I'm not really opposed to it, though.

I like the points Oka makes about Baboon, such as Four's case on them, in 2599.

Anatole, I like your case on Baboon in 2633 as well.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

Quite frankly, I kind of just want this damn day to be over.

Also.
We actually got a replacement?
I kind of thought that'd never happen. okay. Hi FUT.

and yeah what's with the avatars? Ffery has bork's, also. It's confusing o.o

Also, I would love if FUT could clarify this:
@FUT, we were told your/5offs role PM stated the neighborhood/interns contained a "double agent." Does this message look to you like the presence of scum in the neighborhood is confirmed?

[Lissa]

@Lissa what point do you like?

The Page 22 stuff. Four's case, and what you said about posts 533 and 549.

I'm trying to remember why I was townreading you.

I remembered.

this counterwagon and its timing. hmm.

Lissa, fyi this is a significant gamestate change.

I am aware of that. I said I felt the 5-off wagon was not a significant gamestate change; this is.

well, more that I don't really care for those on my wagon atm, and one of the three is probably scum so there isn't any use to really doing anything with them/convince them that I shouldn't be wagoned?

Someone on that wagon is town.

God I fucking hate it when people get fatalistic in mafia games. It's a terrible thing for town players to do and a really useful scumtactic - which you can't even vote people for unless you're willing to go full PL because town players do it so goddamn often.

This.
Tell me why I should unvote you.

[Lissa]

Spoiler: Some stuff on why Baboon is town

in anycase, I never said I liked Fonz post, but I can defintely see where he is coming from, and it is something I can expect another person of relative experience of this game to get. Especially on this site. Lissa's post can be construed in many ways, and it's more about what's not there, than what is there.

This feels like a town perspective.

Fonz, what's the problem with Lissa's post?

this interests me.

Why does that interest you and why do you like Fonz's post? For the record, I stand with FT in believing that there was nothing wrong with Lissa's post.

I liked it because it was an easy post to attack (it does a lot of pointing out the obvious, for one), and he noted this and chose not to attack it. Since I am mildly townreading Lissa, this appeals to me.

(@Mara above- that was directed to me. Maybe we should sign :S)

This is a good observation. I feel like it again comes from a town perspective. (also, noted about pointing out the obvious.)

Also, I think it was Falcon who brought it up, but I dont particularly care about wether or not 5-off has played mafia before ms, he is new

here

and that means he is new to a whole different level of mafia. I had two years experience prior to coming on here, i have made it known, and I always had a confident scum-game but it doesnt change the genuine tone that happened when he assumed everyone else had the same info in their pm that hr had in his, and it closely matches tje genuineness I had when claiming scum in wingate mansion (not sure if you read that game, but you can run it by tammy)

I really like this observation and agree about 5-off.

I figured it wasn't allowed, that's why I asked before doing it. I'll try to paraphrase, but it's gonna lose the tone of it, which is definitely relevant. He started with, "I want to clear something up. Are there any scum in here?" -- then followed that with, "I think we've caught scum on pg. 2 in Nashville. Nashville's continued reaction is really bad. I don't want to say anything because I want to see how they'll continue to react. But I'm telling you guys because I trust you." This is a bad paraphrase but it gets across the main ideas I was concerned with.

At first, I thought this guy was town. Then I realized a couple problems and felt like an idiot. If you're asking, "are there scum in here," you're not gonna start trusting people in the Intern PM when no one has even posted yet (at that time, only Lissa had posted besides Ceph). Nashville could have been IN THE PM, for all Ceph knew. The degree of trust made no sense. I didn't understand it, given an earlier post about possible scum in the PM. Suddenly, the whole, "we've caught scum already! yay!" was very manipulative, as was the, "guys, let's watch Nashville's continued reaction together, we're in this together" vibe. It felt like scum buddying up to the folks in the neighborhood.

So, alright, let's start out by throwing dirt on my tone, which you can't explain. OK, sure. Whatever.

"Are there any scum in here?" was never intended to be taken seriously. It's the equivalent of asking someone if they're town on page 1.

The Nashville thing was the first in my process of testing the waters in the neighborhood. My plan for the neighborhood, before it got vomited into the thread and completely ruined, was to start out by using it as though everyone in it was town; leaving small tidbits in it that I would prefer scum not know, but wouldn't be horribly broken up about if they did. From there, I was going to watch to see whether any non-neighbors changed their behavior in response to anything I said in the hood. So, for instance, I was criticizing Nashville's schtick continuing while they started getting pressure, as I thought the town thing to do would be to drop it and start contributing rather than try too hard at looking lighthearted. Then, if they proceeded to drop it (this is just an example, really, of what I wanted to do with the neighborhood), I suspect that someone in the neighborhood has passed them the information, giving me reason to suspect both that the player who changed is scum, and that there is a scum neighbor (IIRC this was before the presence of a scum neighbor became all but irrefutable & before I realized there could be a lurking neighbor, but those would play in as well).

-Ceph

Good points. I hadn't picked up on the details before seeing this, but I'd assumed Baboon had some sort of reason for wanting to hide that we were neighbors. And they did say in the neighborhood PT that their water testing had a purpose.
Also, FT's case (what Baboon quoted here) is ridiculous.

I believe there were also some posts in the neighborhood that I felt were townish. Will summarize those either in a few minutes or tonight.

Do those two post beat your own case you made on town baboon?

Them along with the case you brought up of Four's - yes. Right now I believe they do.

[Lissa]

Argh
I think at this point I would prefer a 5off/FUT slot lynch.

VOTE: FUT

I still find Baboon scummy, but at this point I don't think they're the best lynch today.
5off/FUT slot has been empty for over three weeks and I believe has a decent chance of being scum.


I'm eager to hear Oka's explanation for his townread on the slot, though.

[Lissa]

I still find Baboon scummy, but at this point I don't think they're the best lynch today.

What made you change your mind?

I've been stuck between Baboon and FUT-slot for a while.
I thought about it and decided the empty scummy slot was probably a better lynch than the present scummy player. And I have my hesitations about Baboon being scum.

I agree, F-16. I really don't want to have this long, long day end in a NL.