Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[Baboon Pride]

the posts were pretty much 50/50.

though, I did a whole lot of shit in that game, and alot of it was primarily meant to see how mollie would react to it, and secondarily see how everyone else would react to it, and the shit I pulled D1 was stupid enough for people to want to react.

[Cutty Shark]

I am really losing track what you're trying to argue here, Anatole.

-b

[Anatole Kuragin]

I am really losing track what you're trying to argue here, Anatole.

-b

I have a gut scum-read on baboon because a) ceph and mara aren't playing like town them I saw in timeshift and b) are pushing cases with logic that clearly isn't consistent with what probably all of us have seen on this site. Reactivity and passiveness do not make someone scum and in fact, the players in the hydra suggesting that exhibit those traits. It makes it feel really disingenuous that she is pushing those as scum traits.

That means more to me than any of the cases made against 4t because none are remotely convincing so I'm voting Baboon.

[Cutty Shark]

I agree with the b), I think the FT case is weak. Just not sure it makes them scum.

-b

[FourTrouble]

Cutty, what're your thoughts on Fonz?

[Cutty Shark]

Yo Tammy
So I slept and thought it over and talked to bork and I think I was just heat of the moment super paranoia over reacting. Sorry that you thought it was a personal attack. Let's be friends again?
SleepyKrew

We now return to your regularly scheduled bork posts

[The Fonz]

@Anatole - nah, I basically want to lynch Lissa never. Babs is also a pretty strong town read too. Given the size of the neighbourhood, and the usual distribution of scum in games, I'm not particularly bothered about the inside/outside distinction - I want to lynch whoever seems to be thinking like scum.

[Cutty Shark]

I think his posts have been reasonable. Minor town.

I think I get his #341 (probably the post I like best of his) - lauding someone for defusing an early game argument that could have blown up is a legitimate point (Skrew thought Nashville's stance on me vs ika was too firm, I don't really agree)

also *reasons*

-bork

[gossamer wings]

If I'm ignoring any questions, it's because I assumed Mara answered them.

Why are you voting 5-Off? Do you think he made up the info?

No, we are ignoring scum reads.

Please don't do this.

[gossamer wings]

What points do you not like?

As far as 5-off goes, he seemed surprised at the fact that ceph was treating our neighborhood as if we were masons for the time being, and assumed we had all the same infom if it was a gambit, it was a pretty damn fluid gambit that I think, even Cabd would appreciate. so.

I know you asked this question, but I'm not going to answer it right now. I want to let Falcon and FT talk so that he can get a read on him.

[gossamer wings]

Anatole - hi! You should start checking westeros boards as we're actually starting to play again. I don't get your scum read on baboon. Does knowing that it's Mara who played in time shift two change your perception at all? (Or did you already know that?)

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

I wouldn't have pointed out that game if I thought the take away was that Mara seemed remarkably different. On the contrary, I think she feels very similar. I think the way that she went after mollie is reminiscent to the way she's going after FourTrouble.

[gossamer wings]

It absolutely is relevant. It goes to mindset. It's not a lesson about particular players, it's a lesson about guilty mindsets. Scum tend to believe things like that because they're scum and when it could be about them they don't often betray the same amount of distrust as a town does in that situation.

This. Although 4T did state that he didn't remember who it was who had claimed knowledge of there being scum there. That might be enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. Baboon's posts read a lot more like I would expect town to react in that scenario: noticing the lack of said information in their own role PM, wondering if it were a reaction test etc. It seems to me, as a town neighbor in that situation, the possibility that one and only one it would at least look

kinda weird

to me.

Yeah, Falcon and I were talking about that last night. I thought it was weird that he didn't remember it was 5-off who made the claim and it bugged me because I thought since they play together off site it would be something he'd remember. However, Falcon said that 5-off uses a different user name at the other site, so it might not have registered and stuck immediately, which kind of makes our concern about him seeming to take it at face value knowing he's a gambitter a weaker point, but still bothers me due to the mindset issue.

[The Fonz]

Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them, having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist, and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town. Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.' Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

Fonz, your facts and assumptions are wrong. Here are some issues/questions.

1. I never whined about you not answering my question. I noted that I wanted the question answered but I didn't ever cite your lack of answer thus far as a problem.

Erm, hang on. These two things are one and the same. When you post in thread, pointing out that a question's not been answered before the player has a chance to, that's obviously going to be read as complaining. It's also 100% not useful.

2. The question I asked Baboon -- why a certain behavior they called scummy was scummy -- was to get a better grasp on their alignment.

That is not the question I was talking about.

3. You're saying I'm scummy for "saying" I'm paranoid about Baboon and you, right? What would a paranoid townie do? Not saying anything? I don't see how this behavior -- being paranoid and telling others about that paranoia -- is scummy.

One, I'm not convinced that it makes any sense for a town player to exhibit paranoia over a couple of posts. Two, YES! Saying you are paranoid doesn't benefit the town. It does however have the effect of announcing 'I'm thinking like a town player.' As Tammy might recall, I made a point (as scum) of pointing out that I was 'paranoid' about her in our last game together.

4. Initially, I didn't have a problem with your vote on me. It was only AFTER your post about Lissa, and in the CONTEXT of that post, that I took problem with your CONTINUED vote on me. So your "FT isn't considering motives behind my vote for him" is kinda irrelevant. What's relevant is your non-committal stance towards Lissa, while voting me for NO reason.

1) This is a new justification you've not given before. And yeah - experience being equal, Lissa's post was scummier than yours, but experience isn't equal here. I was literally about to vote her when I looked at the join date and was like, "Ahhh. Newbie." I find it tends to be unproductive to hound newbies on day one. Especially when the issue is insufficient original thought or scumhunting, I find it easier to read newbs when you directly invite them to give their thoughts on scumhunting-relevant stuff and then see how they react to THAT, as opposed to starting what I've previously called 'The Newbie Escalator.'
2) It's simply untrue that I was voting you for no reason.

5. You're saying I'm scummy for providing a scumlist without reasons, right? But didn't you vote for me without proving any reasons? Don't town vote and provide scumlists without reasons all the time? Is there anything inherently scummy about that? What's the problem there?

Here's the thing. There was an interesting argument going on on page one, and you appeared to basically drop in, not comment on anything, and random vote. That shows up as 'less town motive' than what others who had posted were doing, because proactivity is pro-town. I didn't explain in that specific post because I wanted to see your next post/reaction, and if anyone else had seen what I'd seen, before I explained. I then didn't get the chance to explain because net problems.

Also scumlists, specifically, are bad in general.

[gossamer wings]

I am really losing track what you're trying to argue here, Anatole.

-b

I have a gut scum-read on baboon because a) ceph and mara aren't playing like town them I saw in timeshift and b) are pushing cases with logic that clearly isn't consistent with what probably all of us have seen on this site. Reactivity and passiveness do not make someone scum and in fact, the players in the hydra suggesting that exhibit those traits. It makes it feel really disingenuous that she is pushing those as scum traits.

That means more to me than any of the cases made against 4t because none are remotely convincing so I'm voting Baboon.

If everyone had the same ideas of what makes people town and scum, town would probably win more games than it does.

I have something else to say about this, but I'm holding on to that too!

[gossamer wings]

Yo Tammy
So I slept and thought it over and talked to bork and I think I was just heat of the moment super paranoia over reacting. Sorry that you thought it was a personal attack. Let's be friends again?
SleepyKrew

We now return to your regularly scheduled bork posts

<3

I could never stay mad at you Sleepy. Plus I'm sure I was being over sensitive myself. Lack of sleep makes me even more temperamental than I already am.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole - nah, I basically want to lynch Lissa never. Babs is also a pretty strong town read too. Given the size of the neighbourhood, and the usual distribution of scum in games, I'm not particularly bothered about the inside/outside distinction - I want to lynch whoever seems to be thinking like scum.

If you're confident that your tip off about scum in the neighborhood is true, I think we should definitely be lynching within the hood. A progressive 25% chance (assuming 1 mafia in neighborhood) is favorable to whatever the odds are in the entire game.

[Baboon Pride]

I think fonz is just some old crazy person who might as well readjust to the site.

[Anatole Kuragin]

anyone who joined before 2010 is basically senile

[Baboon Pride]

If I'm ignoring any questions, it's because I assumed Mara answered them.

Why are you voting 5-Off? Do you think he made up the info?

No, we are ignoring scum reads.

Please don't do this.

why?

it's defintely preferable to the alternative of an actual 1v1 with FT and clogging up the game in noise over using that time to get other people to see eye to eye with me

pedit: pretty much!

[Cutty Shark]

<3 Tammy

Anatole, trying to make the hood the lynchpool is bad because what if the scum just hadn't posted? And you're trying to line up lynches in the hood too just stop.

[gossamer wings]

Sorry guys been crazy busy. Will have time for this in the morning. Expect a blow your mind catch up post. Saving my vote till then as I can't find a vote count in the last few pages. If I was to place a random vote, it would be on Fonz as a welcome back how-do-you-do-vote.

do me a favor and hand me your vote.

I am sucking up to people I have experience with, don't you know?

in anycase, I never said I liked Fonz post, but I can defintely see where he is coming from, and it is something I can expect another person of relative experience of this game to get. Especially on this site. Lissa's post can be construed in many ways, and it's more about what's not there, than what is there.

Since when do you suck up to me Mara? Why not Bork? (but seriously, hey, long time no see)

Damn this game is moving fast. Back after work.

You're prettier!

and Bork has a wife.

I'd still like your vote, though. I don't even care if you're actually scum ATM, and if you are I might give you some town-cred for bussing anyhow.

I really liked these two posts. They're consistent with the type of tone I'd expect from town!Mara and less what I would expect from scum!Mara. I like more of their posts, but these two stick out to me as things I'm just not sure she'd do as scum.

The only caveat would be if this was a bus, but her behavior doesn't feel like a bus.

[Anatole Kuragin]

<3 Tammy

Anatole, trying to make the hood the lynchpool is bad because what if the scum just hadn't posted?

yeah, fair point

[gossamer wings]

If I'm ignoring any questions, it's because I assumed Mara answered them.

Why are you voting 5-Off? Do you think he made up the info?

No, we are ignoring scum reads.

Please don't do this.

why?

it's defintely preferable to the alternative of an actual 1v1 with FT and clogging up the game in noise over using that time to get other people to see eye to eye with me

pedit: pretty much!

I'm not saying you have to 1v1 him, but that kind of tactic really doesn't help evolve the gamestate. It just serves to irritate people. If he's town, he's going to get frustrated and think you're scum from it and probably not reassess. If he's scum, he's got a perfect thing to push you on.

[Baboon Pride]

Bork/skrew, what

do

you think about FT? you said you didn't agree with my points against him, and that they were weak but...?

you also said that, my point on him being more active after I start pushing him a little was notable

pedit: eh. that's a fair point, I guess? trying to understand where people you already read as scum, and having them understand where you're coming from isn't something I don't understand the necessity of, and I could be using the time spent answering him answering someone else, I would think

[Cutty Shark]

and, well ok. I guess, though you don't think it's weird his activity picked up considerably after I noted that he was likely scum?

Maybe. I didn't really get it into my head until you called attention to it just how big the portion of his ISO happened as recently as 12 hours ago.

Maybe my biggest deal with FT is the constant attempts at getting validation from F-16 (and I get this because I know they know each other) but without really having attempted to sort the slot as far as I can see.

I dunno. Skrew and I are kinda still both just kinda going 'idk' at each other over skype

-b

This hasn't really changed overall

-b