Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)


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Post Post #1225 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:13 pm

Post by FourTrouble »

In post 1223, gossamer wings wrote:I never said I'm perfect, I think I'm far from perfect and far from a perfect scumhunter, but every time you've asked me a question and I've given you an answer, your response has been essentially "you're not doing it right". That isn't trying to figure out what I'm thinking or why or engaging with me or why. That's you AGAIN telling me what I'm supposed to believe according to your concepts.

I consider your end of the interaction toxic.

You could have very easily asked me what I learned or thought I learned from my questions to Anatole, but you didn't. You decided to tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing.

I asked you what you thought you could learn from the question to Anatole, you said you believed it could tell you something about his alignment because his read was strong, I then explained why I believed you wouldn't learn anything, and you then dismissed what I said with your typical "don't tell me how to scumhunt" argument. I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm explaining why I think the way I do, and I invite you to explain why I'm wrong. What's the problem here? I've tried engaging you multiple times this game to build some common understanding. How is any of that toxic?
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Post Post #1226 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:16 pm

Post by FourTrouble »

Tammy, if you recognize that you aren't perfect and there are still things you can learn, you're not gonna just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you by saying "don't tell me how to scumhunt." You're not gonna stop reading their post 2 sentences in, just because that person is disagreeing with you. You're gonna consider their position, and if you disagree, explain why you disagree. There is a big difference between dismissing someone's position without consideration -- which is what you've been doing all game when I explain my positions to you -- and disagreeing with someone while providing an explanation for that disagreement -- which is what I've been doing all game.
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Post Post #1227 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:18 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1225, FourTrouble wrote:
In post 1223, gossamer wings wrote:I never said I'm perfect, I think I'm far from perfect and far from a perfect scumhunter, but every time you've asked me a question and I've given you an answer, your response has been essentially "you're not doing it right". That isn't trying to figure out what I'm thinking or why or engaging with me or why. That's you AGAIN telling me what I'm supposed to believe according to your concepts.

I consider your end of the interaction toxic.

You could have very easily asked me what I learned or thought I learned from my questions to Anatole, but you didn't. You decided to tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing.

I asked you what you thought you could learn from the question to Anatole, you said you believed it could tell you something about his alignment because his read was strong, I then explained why I believed you wouldn't learn anything, and you then dismissed what I said with your typical "don't tell me how to scumhunt" argument. I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm explaining why I think the way I do, and I invite you to explain why I'm wrong. What's the problem here? I've tried engaging you multiple times this game to build some common understanding. How is any of that toxic?


Did your questions to Anatole tell you anything about his alignment?


FTFY

I'm so glad you asked. His answer for why he's so strongly town reading me doesn't make sense. He did try to implicate me as the serial killer in that game, but I'm not sure why he would have meta'd me to see how much he could implicate me as mafia in that game. Because of the way the night kills worked out. (I was shot by mafia night one and protected while the serial killer shot mafia night one leaving me all but confirmed town once the serial killer claimed vig.) I'm not sure where he thought he was going to implicate me as scum or why he would meta me to see if he could implicate me as scum.

Now if he means he was metaing me to see if I could be the serial killer in that game, then that would have probably made more sense since he did go along with Bert and try to push me as the serial killer on day four.

So, I don't really like his reasoning for town reading me because it feels too convenient.
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Post Post #1228 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:18 pm

Post by FourTrouble »

In fact, this is why I love playing with F-16. I learn a huge amount when I play with him, because I can actually discuss thing with him, and lots of times I'll change my positions because he'll explain why I'm wrong, and lots of times he'll come around to what I'm saying. There is a productive discussion because we both strive to continue improving.
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Post Post #1229 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:19 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1226, FourTrouble wrote:Tammy, if you recognize that you aren't perfect and there are still things you can learn, you're not gonna just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you by saying "don't tell me how to scumhunt." You're not gonna stop reading their post 2 sentences in, just because that person is disagreeing with you. You're gonna consider their position, and if you disagree, explain why you disagree. There is a big difference between dismissing someone's position without consideration -- which is what you've been doing all game when I explain my positions to you -- and disagreeing with someone while providing an explanation for that disagreement -- which is what I've been doing all game.


No you haven't. Reread your posts. You tell me why I'm doing it wrong and then tell me that it's better to do it your way.
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Post Post #1230 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:25 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1228, FourTrouble wrote:In fact, this is why I love playing with F-16. I learn a huge amount when I play with him, because I can actually discuss thing with him, and lots of times I'll change my positions because he'll explain why I'm wrong, and lots of times he'll come around to what I'm saying. There is a productive discussion because we both strive to continue improving.


You probably talk to falcon differently than you've been talking to me. And I realize I can be easily annoyed and sensitive at times, but I don't feel that I am here. I know that Falcon respects you and you guys hydra together, so I've been trying to make sure to explain my thoughts to you so that we could work together. I'm an easy person to talk to and work with; I don't mind people disagreeing with me. But that hasn't been what you've been doing. Maybe it's unintentional, i don't know, but you haven't actually listened to what I said instead you've essentially gone you're wrong and doing it wrong, here let me tell you how to do it right. You even did it in ; you're telling me what to do; what I should be doing, because you are not listening to me.
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Post Post #1231 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:33 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1217, Nashville Dreams wrote:Yeah everytime he posts he pings my radar. I don't know if its me just reacting to the buddying of you ++ his scum read on me. I mean the avatar thing was cute and all, but people are right that doesn't *make* him town.

Which player is the player that Falcon can read? Is that FT?

~M

I didn't like 5-Off's vote on you either but I'm waiting to see how it develops. I hope I can get reads on most people. I play with FT and 5-Off offsite. FT and I tend to read each other pretty well. 5-Off and I, not to the same extent, but I think I have a general idea on how he plays.

~ F-16
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Post Post #1232 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:37 pm

Post by FourTrouble »

Tammy, how should I disagree with you? How can I tell you you're wrong when I think you're wrong?
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Post Post #1233 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:42 pm

Post by Nashville Dreams »

In post 1176, gossamer wings wrote:
In post 1069, Nashville Dreams wrote:It's call it in the air alright yes sir we want the ball And it's knockin' heads and talkin' trash It's slingin' mud and dirt and grass It's I got your number, I got your back When your back's against the wall You mess with one man, you got us all i see it as between you and ft. i strongly think ft is town. i got no opinion on you so if you die boohoo.
Oh this might not be mala head. This is the post that felt posturey coming from mala.
italics head is mala head. that was me.

ika you are so full of shit. either you can back down from this stupid scum gambit you are doing or i can out myself, the fact you should know and then i did even more obviousness on top or I can burn both you and csareo. your call.

when you can't get reservations because you don't have the clout or you didn't get an invitation because somebody left you out that's alright that's ok when you don't feel important honey all i got to say is to the world you may be just another girl but mee baby you are the world
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Post Post #1234 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:45 pm

Post by Nashville Dreams »

In post 1232, FourTrouble wrote:Tammy, how should I disagree with you? How can I tell you you're wrong when I think you're wrong?



let tammy be. we got more likely scum to fry. vote csareo and trust me.

same saturday night same old crowd
draggin main to the safeway then turn back around
til curfew and then head down to the river's edge get drunk
ain't nothing new what else you got to do
out in podunk
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Post Post #1235 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:47 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1221, FourTrouble wrote:I don't remember. The last time I played with you was a quickfire game where you were scum, and I distinctly remember you asking me that question. The question never stuck out much before that, but you're right, you might do it as town too. I'm not saying it's a slam dunk scum-tell -- just that logically-speaking, it makes more sense for scum to ask than town.

I distinctly remember you townreading me in a game because I questioned townreads on me. It is only after that that I started to do it as scum because I knew it would fit my town meta. I'd understand if you accused me of trying to emulate my town meta but I have a hard time following this logic.

~ F-16
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Post Post #1236 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:50 pm

Post by FourTrouble »

I don't remember that game but you might be right. That was probably a long time ago.
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Post Post #1237 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:51 pm

Post by FourTrouble »

Oh shit, I remember now. The logic was, scum wouldn't question town-reads on them because they want people to town-read them. I remember now. Fuck. That was ages ago.
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Post Post #1238 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:52 pm

Post by FourTrouble »

Dam, that must have been 2 years ago or so, right?
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Post Post #1239 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:55 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1222, Nashville Dreams wrote:Anyways,

I'm townreading both {CS & BP} what's your thoughts there?

Also I know tammy just gave me her thoughts on 5-off, but same question applies to you.

And AK.

Those are like my main questions because my other head thinks I'm off base on AK and maaaybe BP.

~M

Agree on CS townread. I'm townreading Mara as well. One post from Ceph pinged but it is a minor thing and I'm waiting to see how it plays out. I'm not sure on AK. I liked his entrance with the way he came in arguing that the cases against FT are bad. I don't know what to make of his early townread on us based on Tammy's posts. I find Tammy rather difficult to meta cold but it is possible he picked up something from that game they played together.

I strongly disagree with his push on Mara. Bork pretty much said everything I was thinking here. I'm not sure what it says about his alignment though. I'd say that town would be more likely to admit they are wrong but something felt off about the way he backed off once Bork and Sleepy cut through his arguments.

~ F-16
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Post Post #1240 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:03 pm

Post by Nashville Dreams »

And I will always do my duty, no matter what the price.
I've counted up the cost, I know the sacrifice.
Oh, and I don't want to die for you,
But if dying's asked of me,
I'll bear that cross with honor,
'Cause freedom don't come free.

I'm an American soldier, an American,
Beside my brothers and my sisters I will proudly take a stand,
When liberty's in jeopardy I will always do what's right,
I'm out here on the front lines. Sleep in peace tonight.
American soldier, I'm an American soldier,


Csareo, what are you seeing here? This isn't your normal self. You better start analyzing this game. Others might not be in your head. I am.

~Hayden P.
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Post Post #1241 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:12 pm

Post by Nashville Dreams »

In post 1143, gossamer wings wrote:I've just lifted weights for an hour, so this post is going to be a hell of a lot nicer than it would have been. You're welcome.

Mala your tone is weird. I've gone back and read games and you still feel weird. I've contemplated that it's an aspect of the hydra as I think that can influence people at times. For instance in board games I had a hard time reading ffery because she sounded more arrogant at times than I associate with her. I kinda decided it wAs the product of hydraing with cabd and cabd said maras more arrogant when she hydras with him and that he just has that effect on people. >_>

Idk what you're referring to with song lyrics. I dont care if you post lyrics. I was also not on your back. I was perfectly fine calling you town and being amused that you were claiming to be so good at reading my tone while calling me not town. I didn't know who you were at that point and I didn't care to know. I would have found it odd if you are sorting me that way as mala I guess I don't know. I don't know what to tell you if you didn't catch that I was amused and not taking it too seriously. The focusing on just me was starting to feel weird though.

What became problematic was other head misrepping my frustration to four trouble and how I felt he was talking to me. I mean at first I even thought that was funny because it was so ludicrous to think I was buddying four trouble, but it turns out the accusation was even more insane. And then that whole heads string of posts and accusations get worse. I never claimed it was a tvt or svt fight and if you actually read my posts, I was calling baboon town with not that strong a case but falcon and I were trying to figure out four troubles alignment. How your other head came to the conclusions she did is baffling and just demonstrates that she is not reading my posts.

Hounding me to name a suspect between them when I'd been upfront with my thoughts was ridiculous. I still don't know what she hoped to achieve and she refuses to answer what the purpose wAs. I don't so much need an answr but I was interested in the response. And then when people not me challenge her buddying accusation, she goes into hiding and refuses to address it. I e asked more than once why she ignored people challenging that accusation and she refuses to answer. (What I find adorable is that after pulling this attitude with me she has the gall to address me as she has today.)

I only started having a problem with your head when you talked about that conversation I had with you about nacho but left it so vague because I know I hadn't scum slipped or did anything remotely how I've caught nacho. It felt like using partial information to validate a scum read on me when I couldn't address it or defend against it. As I ran through who I'd had conversations with about that none of them made sense to come from town and to be sorting me and interacting with me the way that other head had. And no I'm not good at telling heads apart in hydras.

I do think if you're going to be a secret hydra you be a secret hydra. If people figure it out fine, but crumbing it to certain people and then basically taunting someone for not getting it. Trolling is one thing but enough is enough, it's a distraction and is pretty much becoming a distraction. If you can't see that if you want to be a secret hydra you should stay a secret hydra then I do t know what to say. I mean I have secret alts that some people know because they e figured it out.

But if you're town you're other head should back off or not actually I don't have any intention of interacting there again. I'm not scum, I'd love for her to try to explain why I'm scum though because at the very least I'm trying to read you guys. Also if I weren't such a fucking sweetheart I'd respond to the threat of being impolite with bring it but don't be surprised when I can out bitch the best of them. But as I actually care about this game not turning into a shitfest I won't respond so if she wants to continue trying to bait me go ahead babycakes. Have fun! (That was probably passive aggressive)

My earlier point still stands, and I note that once again after being challenged by an accusation she goes into hiding.

And I will say to other head that you can't really bitch about someone's interaction with you when you start things off on the wrong foot. I've learned that lesson in recent games and it's why I've been trying to be less abrasive/condescending in my sorting.

Anyway I feel like I just repeated some of what I've already said but that's where I'm coming from.


There is no Arizona
No Painted Desert, no Sedona
If there was a Grand Canyon
She could fill it up with the lies he's told her
But they don't exist, those dreams he sold her
She'll wake up and find
There is no Arizona

Hey, I didn't see you as being transparent. Generally I don't hound after I get my answer unless the answer is significant to make a point. Why didn't you just say [Player X] was scum if they were a scumread? It was infuriating to no end. I prefer black and white realities. If you are confident someone is scum, say it.

I'm not taunting ika for not getting it. Crumbing it to ika, when he knows (and I know he knows) can be used to see who knows too much and why. ika's hellbent on having my head claim not because he doesn't know who I am, but because he wants to be sure the rest of his buddies if they call me by the wrong name do NOT get lynched for knowing too much.

I also suspect but I cannot prove that you may already know who the non-Mala head is as well.

I am posting lyrics because it's fun to post lyrics. Plus they can give some emotional context to the words I type.

There is no Arizona
No Painted Desert, no Sedona
If there was a Grand Canyon
She could fill it up with the lies he's told her
But they don't exist, those dreams he sold her
She'll wake up and find
There is no Arizona

~Hayden P
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Post Post #1242 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:24 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1232, FourTrouble wrote:Tammy, how should I disagree with you? How can I tell you you're wrong when I think you're wrong?


Just tell me that you think I'm wrong and how you're reading them and why. I mean I love being right and all, but I don't mind being wrong and I don't care if people disagree with me. As difficult of a person as I can be I actually like discussing reads, disagreements and all in mafia, I like finding people I can work with. I don't like feeling talked down to though. Maybe you didn't mean for the "advice" to feel that way, but it did. You can leave that part out, just tell me how you look at it. I told you my thought process and how I came to my conclusions and you can tell me yours. When I say things like scum intent, there's a lot of things wrapped up there. It encompasses the types of things I'd look for and expect in Mara's town v scum play. I *suck* at reading Cephrir and have mostly been focusing on Mara based on some things I think I've learned to pick up on to differentiate her alignment. Can I be wrong? Sure, I can be wrong. I don't feel like I am in this instance.

As far as your thought process question with Mara, I think she sometimes has a hard time really expressing her reads. I think she gets a read or a gut instinct and when she does that the reasons come next and sometimes they aren't really strong, but the important thing here is I believe she believes her read. And that's what leads me to believe she's innocent.

As far as the Anatole question *shrug* I think that most any question that gets you interacting with someone can be productive. (I say this knowing that I've told people they were asking stupid questions before, but hey i can be hypocritical here.) I do have experiences of scum town reading me too quickly because it's just easier to do. Also, I do have a tendency to town read people who town read me or take my side during an argument. I know this, scum know this, and yes I get freaked out if people town read me too quickly or if people not very familiar with me town read me too quickly. Getting them to answer the question can be alignment indicative because there are so many things to responses besides just the generic response. There's tone, how they respond, what answers they give. If they give a genuine sounding response and it's something believable, hey you've got the basis for a read there. One thing with Anatole was in Timeshift he said getting town reads was his thing, and while he was scum there I find that people tend to tell the truth about those types of things. So yeah, I think questions like that can be useful.
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Post Post #1243 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:30 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In fact, in the recent lurker game where SleepyKrew and I hydrad, scum!desperado gave us a town read too quickly based on some meta tell of Sleepy's. We interrogated him for the entirety of day two regarding that read because it didn't sit well with us and none of his explanations were satisfactory and helped to drop the previous day's town read we had on him.
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Post Post #1244 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:30 pm

Post by Cutty Shark »

In post 1210, FourTrouble wrote:
In post 1202, Cutty Shark wrote:
In post 1198, FourTrouble wrote:IHNC definitely overreacting...

What is taunting him supposed to accomplish? You have no experience with ika; you wouldn't be able to tell if his next "blow up" post (which you're clearly trying to make happen) is genuine ika rage or not.

True, I don't have experience with him, but I can easily check his meta for things like this.

Shouldn't you do that *before* riling him up more?
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Post Post #1245 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:32 pm

Post by Cutty Shark »

Hayden
Cut this shit out. Either reveal who you are, or stop fucking with people. If you want to be secret, be secret. If you want people to know who you are, tell us. No more of this halfway crumbing to some people bullshit.
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Post Post #1246 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:33 pm

Post by I have no creativity »

In post 1233, Nashville Dreams wrote:ika you are so full of shit. either you can back down from this
stupid scum gambit
you are doing or i can out myself, the fact you should know and then i did even more obviousness on top or I can burn both you and csareo. your call.


FUCKING 1V1 ME RIGHT FUCKING NOW


YOU THINK IM PULLING SHOME FUCKASS SHIT GAMBIT? REALLY? YOU REALLY FUCKING THINK THAT. YOU BETTER BE VOTE PARKING ME RIGHT FUCKING NOW

VOTE NASHVILL


YOU KNOW WHY I HAVENT ASKED FOR A FUCKING AMSS ROEL CALL YET? YOU KNOW WHY I WANTED SK TO STOP MY QUESTIONING? WANT TO KNOW WHY? BECAUSE IM A FUCKING PR THIS TIME AROUND NOT A FUCKING VT SHIT.
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Post Post #1247 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:35 pm

Post by gossamer wings »

In post 1241, Nashville Dreams wrote:
There is no Arizona
No Painted Desert, no Sedona
If there was a Grand Canyon
She could fill it up with the lies he's told her
But they don't exist, those dreams he sold her
She'll wake up and find
There is no Arizona

Hey, I didn't see you as being transparent. Generally I don't hound after I get my answer unless the answer is significant to make a point. Why didn't you just say [Player X] was scum if they were a scumread? It was infuriating to no end. I prefer black and white realities. If you are confident someone is scum, say it.

I'm not taunting ika for not getting it. Crumbing it to ika, when he knows (and I know he knows) can be used to see who knows too much and why. ika's hellbent on having my head claim not because he doesn't know who I am, but because he wants to be sure the rest of his buddies if they call me by the wrong name do NOT get lynched for knowing too much.

I also suspect but I cannot prove that you may already know who the non-Mala head is as well.

I am posting lyrics because it's fun to post lyrics. Plus they can give some emotional context to the words I type.

There is no Arizona
No Painted Desert, no Sedona
If there was a Grand Canyon
She could fill it up with the lies he's told her
But they don't exist, those dreams he sold her
She'll wake up and find
There is no Arizona

~Hayden P


If I'm confident someone is scum, I do. (Unless I'm holding onto the read to watch interactions) I don't if I have some minor gut feelings and watching something play out.

At that point I was more concerned with figuring out our read on fourtrouble because then that would give us a center and a point from which we could figure the game out.

Scum have daytalk. He could easily tell his buddies if that were the case.

I don't care if you guys post lyrics. I like the lyrics. I consider a form of trivia where I try to guess the song because I'm a dork.
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Post Post #1248 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:36 pm

Post by Cutty Shark »

In post 1203, Cutty Shark wrote:
In post 1201, I have no creativity wrote:RIGHT NOW I HAVE BEEN PRETTY MUCHT HE ONLY PERON WHO HAS POSTED IN THE DAMN THREAD.

??

ika, please explain this statement. Was it about beast?
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Post Post #1249 (ISO) » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:39 pm

Post by I have no creativity »

In post 1248, Cutty Shark wrote:
In post 1203, Cutty Shark wrote:
In post 1201, I have no creativity wrote:RIGHT NOW I HAVE BEEN PRETTY MUCHT HE ONLY PERON WHO HAS POSTED IN THE DAMN THREAD.

??

ika, please explain this statement. Was it about beast?


we have the hydra of us here and then out qt.

so far all ( maybe minus a few early ones) have been by me.

out qt is compiled of 15 posts with the last one being on the 7th by beast.

as of now i have been doing like everything in this damn game and feels less like a hydra and more like just me playing

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