Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[Scripten]

Finished my catch up read. Going to go through and ISO everyone now to see if I can pick out specifics. I'll throw out some initial gut reads now, but these are subject to change after I've gone through the thread more carefully. Apologies in advance for the wall o' text. Will try to cut down on it as the game progresses.

Spoiler: Gut/Current Reads

Malakittens

- Mala's been a wee bit active lurky throughout. I feel like a lot of her posts are not particularly driving the game state. Might also be due to Day 1. Mildly scummy, mostly null read.

Josh B

- Disagree with him about MS. I don't think the content that's been generated by his gambit was particularly good. I will agree that it got the game out of RVS, which might have been its intent. Dislike his push on Huntress. Like his push on Zebulin, though I'm not ready to lay a vote yet. Light town read. (I'd appreciate him NOT ruining this game by being a jerk to me over completely unrelated reasons, though. Thanks.)

Alpha Sapphire

- Lurker. Completely null and ready for a replacement to come in.

Shinobi

- Got into it with BBT over rolefishing for Masons. Had some arguments over theory/gameplay stuff, but nothing hard. I do like that he called out Mala about her posts being active lurking, though he phrased it as prod dodging, so... eh. Mild scum, mostly null.

Peabody

- Seems to be voting BBT over playstyle issues. Not much wrong with that at this point in the game. Looks like he's headed to sheep Josh. May be scum buddying town or just town. I'm leaning mildly town on this one, but this could switch after a reread.

Metal Sonic

- The showman of the game. MS led us out of RVS, but he's been nothing but confusing. I'm certainly not getting a town read on him, but I can't say I'm getting a particularly strong scumread, either. He's alternating being somewhat transparent with trolling other players. I remember that his reads list kind of sucked. Slight to moderate scum.

nyanyanya

- Lurker. Same as Alpha Sapphire.

Huntress

- I am a little hesitant about how quickly she hopped on the Zebulin wagon. That said, her points were spot-on from what I can tell. Leaning slight town.

nopointactingup

- Getting a scummy vibe from NPAU all game. I don't really like he feels all over the place. Also, a little active lurky. Feels like he hops in, makes a short push, and hops out for a bit. Once I ISO him, I can make a better informed read on him. For now, moderate scum lean.

BlueBloodedToffee

- Feeling like a townie playing with a few weak reads as if they're stronger. I've played a couple of games with BBT, but I'm always a little suspicious of him trying to manipulate his meta. I dislike how many arguments he's gotten into, but that's just how he plays. (A dangerous precedent to set, I know. I'm trying to avoid letting that affect my read.) Still, slight town read.

Zebulin

- My reads somewhat line up with his in a few places. I don't like his logic, however, and he can't really support his cases very well. I don't like his playstyle very much, it's true. However, I think it's safe to say that I have a legitimate scum read on him. I'll look things over, but for now, he moderately scummy.

goodmorning

- Her questioning of Zebulin about his phrasing a question at MS felt pedantic. Feels like over-excited townie thinking they caught a slip, though. Reads are pretty alright to me, from what I can gather from her posts. Her case on MS hasn't been super strong, but it's solid for what it is. (This might be me confbiasing because I hate MS's playstyle.) Getting a slight town read here.

Overall: Got too many scum reads atm. I need to sort through them. Feel good about my town reads, though.

[Scripten]

So yay I'm scummy enough not to get NK'd! considering everyone is soft scum reading me one way or another.

Can someone explain how I'm actively lurking when my posts are pretty much equal in time stamps since I'm working everyday <.<

Way I understand it, active lurking doesn't rely on post count. It's more a general feeling of posting without actually generating content/discussion. Again, I may have missed your contributions. If so, it'll show when I ISO you and look at the way each of your posts affected game state. (Or didn't)

[Scripten]

Like, even if I have caught goodmorningscum, her partners will defend her so I am at an impasse!

Sure, lets wait till deadline

Cool. If you know who her partners are, can you just tell us the scumteam and we can win the game? Or are you insinuating that anyone who doesn't sheep you is scum?

I mean, this looks like you're giving up pushing your case(?) because there's peeps who don't agree with you. I don't see the point in that.

[Scripten]

Josh B - Disagree with him about MS. I don't think the content that's been generated by his gambit was particularly good. I will agree that it got the game out of RVS, which might have been its intent. Dislike his push on Huntress. Like his push on Zebulin, though I'm not ready to lay a vote yet. Light town read. (I'd appreciate him NOT ruining this game by being a jerk to me over completely unrelated reasons, though. Thanks.)

Seriously though, thanks for subbing in. I was just trying to give you a hard time. But, let's see where the game goes. I'll try not to be overly critical.

Sounds good to me. Have had a crummy week so far. Been megasick and had pop quizzes from all but one prof, so I might be a little oversensitive. Glad to get a fresh start.

Cool. If you know who her partners are, can you just tell us the scumteam and we can win the game? Or are you insinuating that anyone who doesn't sheep you is scum?

I mean, this looks like you're giving up pushing your case(?) because there's peeps who don't agree with you. I don't see the point in that.

If I know who her partners are, then I must be the mod!

I love how you respond to the most important parts of our posts and not the sarcasm directed at your play. Bolded the part you should be replying to but aren't.

[Scripten]

And you're just going to idle until lynch-time? If not, what was the point of your (335)?

[Scripten]

Zebulon is very new; since this is an open game I'm not down for policy lynching that dude


I saw newb town

Zebulon is very new; since this is an open game I'm not down for lynching that dude


I saw newb town

^I agree.

Interesting. What makes your reads newb town and not newb scum?

NPAU:

Come on back to the party. We miss you and you should come contribute more.

Zebulin:

Keep your reads lists in the thread, please. It goes along with the whole not-editing-posts thing. Also goes along with not talking about the game outside of it. Just keep everything game related in this thread and you're good.

Btw, finished my ISO reads. Mostly the same as before. Notable changes: Mala and Shinobi look a little better upon closer examination. (Mala's (329) sets off a few red flags, but meh.)

[Scripten]

On another note. I like zebulin's recent explanation. Can we vote Peabody now?

VOTE: peabody

I wouldn't mind a Peabody lynch. He's a little scummy, but right now I'd like to see a good NPAU wagon. His votes are all over the place, he's misrepping BBT something -hard- in (320). Also, (224) is terrible, but this takes the cake:

Define soft defend. Why would scum more likely to soft defend each other and not just outright defend or outright distance each other?

Might do a short meta checkup, but that's ringing scum to me.

VOTE: nopointinactingup

Newb scums are obvious scums

Newb towns are vi

Alright. That's a fair enough point for the moment. Why are you pushing a lynch on goodmorning again? What makes a scum GM opposed to a town GM to you? Gimme something good.

[Scripten]

Scripten, can you please change your avatar? Thanks.

I suppose I could. What needs changed about it?

[Scripten]

BBT:

I'm not sure if mala is the best lynch target for today. I've never played with her before, but this seems less like active lurking and more like gut play, IMO. You should come hop on one of the scummier wagons today. Those wagons are much more fun.

Do you feel that reading a player on how annoying they are is ineffective at figuring out alignment?

Mala:

What're your reads on NPAU and Peabody?

[Scripten]

I disagree.

Can you find anything noteworthy that Mala has contributed on D1? She has actively lurked throughout, and despite knowing full well what actively lurking means, attempts to point to her consistency in the times that she posts as some sort of defence.

I don't think she has taken a strong stance this entire game yet.

Couple this with our previous interaction and I think Mala is a great choice for a D1 lynch.

I think we may have to just agree to disagree. Doing some reading back, I'm getting the hang of how Mala plays. Her contributions are fairly broad early on, but I don't see a problem with that at this point in the game.

Taking strong stances isn't really a town tell to me. Not doing so can be a scum tell later on, but on D1, I'm just not feeling it.

I'm definitely taking your exchange with her differently. I find her read on MS to be fine for right now and her explanation satisfies me.

FAKEEDIT: Mala's newest post covers what I am saying better than I think I am doing.

[Scripten]

Wow, really?

So, I ask 'What about MS was pinging for you?'. She replies 'He was annoying me with all the Mason & VT bullshit'.

Then, I ask 'Why have you done noting to develop this read, especially given you struggle to read this player'. She says 'I don't know how to'.

Seriously Scripten? Those answers satisfy you?

Like, she hasn't questioned MS or tried to engage with him at all. Even though she was scum-reading him. That makes sense to you?

That's why I asked you if examining how annoying a player is could be used to scumhunt. From my POV, Mala's currently reading MS as scum based on his distracting gameplay style, which I can understand. During D1, gut reads aren't all bad.

Keep in mind that during our newbie game together, I used Thor665's frustration against him as scum. This is also where meta can be used as part of scumhunting. I wouldn't say it's an end-all-be-all tool, but discounting it entirely can be dangerous. In this case, in fact, I wouldn't even say that Mala's using meta all that prominently.

[Scripten]

That's why I asked you if examining how annoying a player is could be used to scumhunt. From my POV, Mala's currently reading MS as scum based on his distracting gameplay style, which I can understand.

No, she isn't scum-reading him from his gameplay style because she doesn't know how to read him. She specifically stated one issue of MS' play (the Mason and VT issue). She said nothing about his play-style.

I disagree with this, but I don't see this discussion going anywhere useful. Mala's play isn't the most logical, but I'm just not reading her as scum. Do you have any lesser scum reads?

[Scripten]

Is this typical of BBT to fake convictions? To you who know him, my case may be weak if this is something typical of him. If on just a general player, I think faking a conviction is a scum-tell. I'm at the point where I don't know whether to continue pushing this or to focus attention elsewhere. He's been seeming more towny lately. I know an aggressive stance early game is something I've done as scum at least once. So from personal experience, I'm inclined to believe his early play is scum generated. His later play is much better.

BBT takes this stance whether or not he's scum. I'm pretty sure he does it to try and intentionally affect his meta, but it may just be a playstyle choice. Either way, it is unfortunately a rather confusing playstyle. I've not seen him policy/mislynched for it in any game I've played so far, though.

[Scripten]

Hm.

It's not my goal to policy lynch. A policy isn't my case.

And my case isn't that he's taking a stance. It's that he's taking a fake stance.

Don't worry. I was talking in general terms, not about you specifically.

Is that typical of him to be over-the-top convicted of a read? Because I don't get the vibe that he believes in his own reads.

Yes. Okay, you have a point. That said, I don't think it's alignment indicative.

PEDIT: Alright, looks like we're on the same page now. Any new scumspects?

[Scripten]

Scripten, can you please change your avatar? Thanks.

I suppose I could. What needs changed about it?

It looks like a bad demon thing. Ew

What's wrong with that? I happen to rather like my Hell Knight avatar.

[Scripten]

Is that typical of him to be over-the-top convicted of a read?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=58856

For reference.

To add to this, he was a cop, so his hard claims didn't stick after his death. So while it's all well and good to call out the behavior, I don't think it's a scumtell.

[Scripten]

Npau has suddenly become a scum read based on 439.

And he is easier to kill than goodmorning

vote npau

Just as I was getting confident you're town

I agree that 450 is pretty scummy. Why don't you explain why? I wanna know if our reasons coincide.

[Scripten]

What do people mean when they keep saying 'beetle juiced'?

BBT, you're not posting in the thread.

BBT, why are you lurking?

BBT, come back to us!

*BBT appears*
[/goofing off]

[Scripten]

in other words it's opportunistic as hell and discredits his whole push on goodmorning if you ask me

This is a neat point. Could be a MS/GM scumteam. Pushing failed wagons can give scumbuddies town cred. Something to consider later on.

[Scripten]

Newb scums are obvious scums

Newb towns are vi

Alright. That's a fair enough point for the moment.

You're very compliant in this game Scripten. It's like you're trying not to ruffle any feathers.

I got my eye on you.

You take one part of my post entirely out of context and make assumptions based on it. I'm not taking MS's defense of Zeb's play as a scumtell. Your statement comes across as you saying that I should be faking tells just to make cases on players I find scummy.

[Scripten]

Your comment was a direct response to MS' answer to your question. How is that taken out of context?

Because you took it and used it to say that it makes me look like I'm not ruffling anyone's feathers. I disagree.

You accepted that as an answer for why MS was town-reading Zeb and not scum-reading him. Even though you asked in your question

why

Zeb was newb-town and not newb-scum. I don't see how MS' response answers your question, but you accepted it.

I reassessed my read on Zeb. Now that Davesaz has taken over, I'm more confident. It's null to me atm.

Mala:

(493) Wait a sec. There's no need for us to fish out masons. Why shouldn't we call out active lurking when it happens? I don't agree with that assessment.

[Scripten]

Mala: (493) Wait a sec. There's no need for us to fish out masons. Why shouldn't we call out active lurking when it happens? I don't agree with that assessment.

expect for I'm not fishing out masons. I'm asking a simple question. Why does he only assume that he could only be a VT or a scum, why can't he be a mason also acting indifferently. I think it's a pretty damn question worthy of an answer though.

Why would a mason act indifferently? I suppose I don't really understand the implication you're pushing for.

@Scripten - That was my interpretation of your post. I'm allowed to give my opinions, right? Just because you disagree with what I was saying, it does not mean I have taken it out of context. Those are different things.

Sure, your opinions are fine. I'm also allowed to disagree with them. I just don't think I have been particularly compliant, as you say, this game.

Your second point has exactly 0 relation to what I actually said to you. How did you accept MS' answer for how he was town-reading Zeb when it told you nothing?

I went back, reread Zeb's posts, and found I agreed with what MS said. Doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not MS is scum, but I'm finding Zeb's slot less scummy for it. Hence my post about it being a fair point. I said you took it out of context because that statement was right next to questions I'd put up for MS to answer. (Speaking of which, I think I need to go and collect some of those where I've been left hanging.)

In case you're wondering, BBT, MS still looks pretty scummy to me. It's Zeb's slot that changed. I still want to see NPAU lynched. He looks like the most likely scum, IMO.

[Scripten]

Mod:

Could we get a votecount pretty please? Would suck to get a derphammer.

[Scripten]

That's because NPAU has posted a total of two times. Both posts have been pretty useless/scummy. My read on him hasn't gone toward town at all, so why should my vote change?

[Scripten]

OK. Anyways, I want Scripten and BBT to give a case on me. The others are sheeping/scum I think. TBH, I'm no fan of this game, but I'll try to respond to it the best I can

I'll do this as soon as I can. For the moment, I would suggest ISOing NPAU and getting context on the places where he votes to see why he looks suspect to me.

[Scripten]

I really don't like this goodmorning wagon. I feel like if she was scum, she'd be trying harder to get it off herself. That said, it'd be nice to see more activity from her. Heph does look pretty suspicious, as well. I'm wondering why the NPAU wagon broke up as soon as someone mentioned that it was unanimous. (It wasn't.)

uctriton00:

Why do you read Heph as town?

[Scripten]

Eh. If goodmorning is town we can lynch MS scum tomorrow. It's day 1 not LyLo

So are you also intending on clearing MS if GM is scum?

[Scripten]

You find it impossible for MS and GM to be on the scumteam together?

[Scripten]

Right. Why do you believe it more likely that they are not the same alignment?

[Scripten]

uctriton00: Why do you read Heph as town?

Meta.

Unflattering meta, but meta. When he's vanilla townie, he is like, incredibly unhelpful. But when he's scum, he actually tries much harder.

Great...

Appreciate the response at least.

[Scripten]

So ... Why don't you do this? Where is this?

Been waaaay too busy lately. I'll be able to do this by the end of the weekend.

[Scripten]

ahahahahahaha my wagon

shit looks sketch as fuck

Just a thought, but posts like these MAY not be helping your case.

[Scripten]

Let's all lynch Hephestus. I feel pretty good about that right now.

I want to agree with this. Heph is, at the very least, a liability to town later on. His lack of effort/contributions would be dangerous when we get down to the brass tacks.

That said, policy lynches based on playstyle suck because they're so likely to hit town. Lynching scum D1 would be nice for once.

[Scripten]

Case on NPAU

Jumpy vote hopping (All of his votes so far have apparently been serious, as per (105)): (33) (105) (224) (320) (439)

Finds MS unlikely to be scum, (224) but, despite MS's playstyle not changing, he considers him scum by (521). Yet, he barely pushes at MS, which is a marked change from his other accusations. I also did not notice him voting MS. Considering how much his votes have jumped around, this is inconsistent, especially when he jumps onto GM in (634). After all, if he was changing his playstyle because it made him look scummy, he should have stopped vote-hopping by that time. (If he was town, stopping scummy behavior would have made sense. Even if it cast suspicion on him, it would ultimately make the game clearer for the town. Scum thrive in confusion.)

There's some scummy wording and opportunistic attacks in those posts, too.

I also find it interesting just how fast the NPAU wagon broke up and how fast the GM wagon grew at the same time. I'll go back and see where votes changed from one wagon to the other and check if my thoughts match up.

[Scripten]

-snip-
I'm not really happy with these answers and it's something I may come back to at a later point. Given you're pushing a lynch I would also like to see, I'm going to leave it be for now.

Since you're not on the NPAU wagon any more, can you cover this, BBT? I want to know why you're troubled by my read shift on Zebulin's slot, especially now that I'm reading uctriton00 as pretty town.

As for the wagon analysis:

Metal Sonic, BlueBloodedToffee, and Hephaestus are on the wagon with me up until (577). BBT changes his vote, and MS immediately follows. (620), roughly a page later, has Heph chasing them with nothing but an image macro for reasoning. (Seriously, Heph, if you're town, your play is -terrible-.)

There's nothing but really basic reasoning behind jumping ship, even though NPAU hadn't said a thing. Now uctriton00 and huntress are on the wagon, with the prior NPAU wagon (excluding myself) on GM.

Actually, it's kind of interesting that the mod had posted a vote count right before the wagon all but dissolved.

[Scripten]

I seriously don't know what to do with Shin v Uct.

Two notes. I find it strange that uct already moved his vote onto Shinobi. I would like to eventually hear Shinobi's case as well.

From this interaction, I'm feeling like at least one of the two is town.

[Scripten]

I seriously don't know what to do with Shin v Uct.

Two notes. I find it strange that uct already moved his vote onto Shinobi. I would like to eventually hear Shinobi's case as well.

From this interaction, I'm feeling like at least one of the two is town.

Why?

To the second part, that is.

Just not reading the interaction as something I'd see between two scum players. One of you may be scum, or both of you may be town. Just my read, tho. YMMV.

[Scripten]

Btw, I already posted most of my case in posts #732 and #733. I'm surprised everybody overlooked what I said.

Can you explain more of why (732) is relevant to uct being scum? I don't think I'm following.

(733) doesn't really follow from uct's (730). You're putting emphasis on the wrong part of his post. You're saying that he's enticing people to join the wagon by him stating that, if NPAU flips scum, then two players already on the wagon are town. I wholeheartedly disagree with this. In fact, I'd go so far to say that it is not out of the question to see scum jumping on their partner's wagon if that lynch looks likely.

That said, uct's reaction did not feel right.

[Scripten]

The issue is that uct's reasoning completely falls apart if NPAU is town. In theory, town lynches are all illogical because lynching town inherently makes no sense. Uct's reasoning for his scumread boils down to "it sets people up to be town" which is nothing more than convenience for the sake of convenience.

That post was about associative reads based on NPAU, not about making a case on NPAU, unless I'm totally off-base here.

[Scripten]

Do you consider Shinobi to be scummier than NPAU or are you just voting him because he challenged you with a case you see as poor?

[Scripten]

i dont rly care lalalala

This helps us a lot.

Does this mean that you consider both Shinobi and uctriton00 to be town or what?

[Scripten]

That was a whole hella lot of bunk. Are we back to the same place we were three pages ago, then?

[Scripten]

Sigh.

Prod dodge whilst waiting for Mala's wagon to pick up.

Do you think this is likely to happen?

[Scripten]

You think you'll talk enough people into joining you, today, before the deadline?
Right now, I'm seeing a no-lynch as a distinct possibility, and I'm not liking it at all. The town is going to need to come together on what we do today.

I don't think we're at TOO much risk for a no-lynch. I have a few scumreads whom I would be comfortable voting for, though I'm definitely vying for my top read atm.

Don't we have several players on the NPAU wagon in spirit, just without a vote, anyway?

[Scripten]

Davesaz:

It's about as strong as a day 1 vote would warrant. I'm fairly sure NPAU is scum, but if he flipped town it's not like it'd be the end of the world.

[Scripten]

Uctriton is scum

Do you think he's scum protecting his scumbuddy NPAU from a lynch, or something else?

[Scripten]

This was a pretty fun game. I wish I'd been able to be active in it a little longer. My reads were kind of crap, though.

Any advice from others, though my contributions were admittedly minor?