Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If massive was a null-read, then he couldn't be scum pushing his wagon could he?

Not to mention he then speaks to massive as if he is town-reading him straight after.

[massive]

I would if that would work. There is nothing to scum read him for besides lurking and disagreeing with me.

Another thing that drives me nuts about you, Csareo, is that you pick up anything someone says and just throw it out there unashamedly. Wake and the conspiracy theory, now this. TTH was the first "massive is lurking" person and I very clearly pointed out that I had posted every non-weekend day (and multiples on some days) and you have somehow picked it up and thrown it out there casually, I guess to hopefully keep people thinking "oh yeah, massive doesn't post nearly as much as other people!" HEADS UP: My posting schedule is non-alignment-indicative. You want to go after a lurker, you're better off finding an actual lurker.

Although, that wouldn't make you much better than BBT on that front, amirite?

[DoctorPepper]

Vote Count 1.10

BlueBloodedToffee(6)

– TellTaleHeart, Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88

Csareo(5)

– FakeGod, The Rufflig, Green Crayons, BlueBloodedToffee, massive

JaggedAppliance(1)

– Anatole Kuragin

Not Voting(1)

- JaggedAppliance

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch
New deadline is on Sunday, September 28, 2014, 11:00 AM {(expired on 2014-09-28 11:00:00)}

Mod notes:

FakeGod replaces Omph[/area]

[Green Crayons]

I would if that would work. There is nothing to scum read him for besides lurking and disagreeing with me.

Another thing that drives me nuts about you, Csareo, is that you pick up anything someone says and just throw it out there unashamedly. Wake and the conspiracy theory, now this. TTH was the first "massive is lurking" person and I very clearly pointed out that I had posted every non-weekend day (and multiples on some days) and you have somehow picked it up and thrown it out there casually, I guess to hopefully keep people thinking "oh yeah, massive doesn't post nearly as much as other people!" HEADS UP: My posting schedule is non-alignment-indicative. You want to go after a lurker, you're better off finding an actual lurker.

Although, that wouldn't make you much better than BBT on that front, amirite?

Heh. I'm doing a reread, and I just caught something that falls in line with this:

Csareo has been in love with throwing out things being "associative tells," even when it isn't particularly apt:

Spoiler: Csareo's Love Affair With "Associative Tells"

Anatole and Flubber look and feel town.

This is

an associative tell

, since I was scum reading flubber, and Anatole appears to be alligned with BBT, a major scum read.

<snip>

What is exactly your case on me?

An associative tell on wake

, and one false statement?

Scum can buddy with scum. Town can buddy with town. Scum can buddy with town.

Associative tells are only indicative at end of the game.

Greencrayons, I would need to scum read ruffles and anatole by your logic, because they're buddying with BBT.
Fortunately,

associative tells are a bullshit reason to lynch someone before a flip happens.

Respond to my case.

Why the hell did you vote for me over an associative tell.

There is nothing to support greencrayon's theory, and I explained earlier why it wouldn't make sense for scum.

Now why are we even considering some bullshit associative tell on D1?

I agree with my good friend bullish. People on this site don't actually know how to play mafia.

Every game I've played has accumulated in terrible D1 town lynches based on such things as associative tells and "being wrong"

Literally EVERY game I've played in thus far, there has been one townie lynched on the grounds that he doesn't make sense.

Do any of you know what an actual scum tell is?

The case is so petty and ridiculous.

Associative tells are as bad as meta, just stop.

How many times have I heard this bullshit from scum? "You are going against a town objective blah blah" "You're scum for voting blah blah"
Make it end please. The ignorance really hurts.

Now as much as I would like to buy into this funny game of "associative tells" and all that fun jazz

, it isn't in our best interests to keep thinking so short shortsightedly.

Of course,

many players are also guilty of relying on associative tells.

Wake,GC, and Ruffling being among them.

I've complained enough about GC and Ruffling's associative tells already.

By his logic, we should policy lynch BBT to uncover the sheer amount of association tells he made.

Greencrayons, if you are town, then I would like to give you some advice.

Over relying on association as you were in your early case is a bad idea.

Greencrayons, if you are town, then I would like to give you some advice.

Over relying on association as you were in your early case is a bad idea.
Association is near useless D1. Actually, it is anti utillity and anti town to be doing pushes based on association until at least one scum has been uncovered.
Skilled players can sometimes successfully deduct association out of a town flip, and I'll be honest when I say I'm not to good at that myself, but this is just one of the many flaws I see in your cognitive processes.

<snip>

As I said, we all use different methods to reach different conclusions, and it isn't very wise to scum read people simply because they don't reach conclusions in the same manner you do.
Which is why I'm not falling into your logic trap and scum reading you. As far as I'm concerned, you're misguided/stubborn town if BBT flips non-mafia, and scummy if he flips mafia.

It isn't 100% indicative, but that is when association tells really start to count for something.

That's because your suspicions don't make any sense. All your suspicions have been accusations of association.

Associative tells are shitty on D1

How in the world did Csareo ever get the idea of flinging "associative tell" at things he doesn't like? Maybe from BBT's first criticism of Csareo:

Spoiler: Csareo Case

Case for Anatole + BBT + TTH

Well, I first started to think you were scum, when I saw your early vote and unvote for BBT.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Why do you need to quote to us your discussion of who to night kill?

Usually this is fine, but the unexpected unvote took me by suprise. Scum have a common tactic of voting their buddy early game. Nothing extremely indicative, but certainly suspicious.
Didn't see a justification either.

uhhh

UNVOTE: blue

Then there was this whole interaction with grey ice. Boy, did the sirens go a'flying.

It is masons except they don't know eachother's alignment.

Having at least one scum in a neighborhood has been the situation in every single game I have played with neighbors.

In post 81, GreyICE wrote:
Anatole, what games have you played with neighbors? I find your analysis fascinating.

Sorry, I realized I can't really discuss this more.

In post 106, GreyICE wrote:
Yo, Anatole, I'm calling bullshit

I went through your games. Your last game with a neighborhood had two town neighbors. Do you know what, Anatole? They were both town. Your last game with Neighbors, Anatole.

You know what? There's a very old philosophy. It goes Lynch. All. Liars.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that you didn't even bother to do a quick double check as part of an actual sincere scumhunting effort (instead of piggybacking on the hate). And then you dodged my question, Anatole.

Lynch. All. Liars.

Vote: Anatole

You can lynch Boonskiies when I'm dead for a twofer, fyi.

This post also made me relax my read on BBT, but now that I go back, all of it seems like a way to temporarily relieve himself of pressure, even bringing the statement up in the beginning of his post.
Further indication that the two are in cahoots. Notice how know hostility came back from anatole following this vote? Completely unlike his meta, right?

All this talk of whether neighbours have pre-game chat is ridiculous.

Every game I have played in I have had pre-game chat if my role allows for it. It's usually quite short as you only have as long as it takes for the majority/everyone to confirm for the game. When that's done, the chat is closed.

Boon's 93 was awful.

Anatole lying is also pretty bad.

VOTE: Anatole

Now, skipping the PT topic post which can be found, here
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6201895
That was literally the scummiest thing I've seen. I'm almost certain it was forged, or details were ommited. The formatting was off, as if someone editted it.
Anyone notice that?

That was my line of thinking. I just starting doubting myself after constantly re-reading it. I think TTH knew I was suspicious and decided to come after me from the get-go.

I hope my stance is a little clearer with this information out.

VOTE: TTH

Convenient, right? Especially after reviewing BBT's earlier posts in the game, Although, it is possible, that telltale is protecting himself, as BBT found this information out earlier.
Could it be a hit, is she trying to remove the liability?

I don't see the scumslip.
Top
Anatole Kuragin
Mafia Scum

User avatar
Joined : April 19, 2008
Location: Right under join date, please.
Pronoun: He
Post Post #128 (ISO) » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:24 am

Uhh.. so are you going to explain it wake?

This is the second time anatole has came in defense of TTH
It also appears to be the only time the two came into direct conflict, which is why I'm doubting my read on BBT. Here is the third defense....

Why is your first instinct upon reading "tackle a read" to assume the aim is to fabricate a false one?

But HERE is the big tip off, the mother of all fuck ups

I'm probably suffering with conf. bias here.

When I saw my role PM, I automatically assumed that TTH was scum. Then I convinced myself after post 3 of the neighbour thread that she slipped. However, during recent exchanges in this thread, I'm beginning to think that TTH is actually town.

If you are town TTH, you made a pretty big mistake in your opening post of this game. You should have waited to see what developed.

UNVOTE:

God almighty, perhaps they're creating some elaborate plan, it is beyond me. This got me all worked up with theories, and almost certain the above is scum motivated.
In support of my anatole-BBT scum team theory, this fits perfectly. I notice that TTH took off pressure of BBTm despite what she contrary said, following the unvote.
Come on, who do you take us for? Redirecting suspicion

In the midst of the ongoing storms in me vs. BBT and Boon vs. GreyICE, I see that someone is making posts while taking care to sit it all out.

This vote flip was the final tip off on anatole, sychronized perfectly with BBT.

I'm going to keep digging at this until I get more info from reactions and such. That you're dissembling this and now lying about my words is pretty revealing in itself.

VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

Maybe this vote will.

VOTE: Wake88

VOTE: wake

Literally nobody is saying you are scum JUST for not reading "every post" you are scum for a myriad of reasons now, but the one you are TRYING to refute is that you are making cases on people and actively posting while not reading your target's posts and complaining about not having time to read every post. As if posting these braindead cases does not require any time at all.

Making associative cases with no flips to base this information off is pretty bad scum-hunting play.

lol. I'm not saying it's definitely what happened, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. "Oh, what I said was an associative tell, hunh? Yeah. Yeah that's a good line of attack, it just sounds effective. I'm going to use that in the future."

[FakeGod]

Unvote

[FakeGod]

Wake, please unvote while I read.

[FakeGod]

Can someone give me a summary of what happened in this game so far?

[Csareo]

Can someone give me a summary of what happened in this game so far?

Sure. As Impartial as possible, a player named BBT began vote hopping a lot, and that led to a solid tunnel from a couple of townies, including doogal, boonskies, TTH, and me. In response to the wagon, a second one popped up on yours truly, Csareo, leaving us at a L-2 and L-1 gridlock. We're all very frustrated and fed up with this game, and it would be lovely if you hammer BBT in the meantime. Thanks!

[Csareo]

Can someone give me a summary of what happened in this game so far?

And here is all the information you need to lynch BBT
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6223124

BBT has a tendency to do the same things over and over. When a player starts to tunnel him, he reacts by voting the player that is putting on the pressure (TTH, Wake88, Csareo, boon).
As soon as the player tunneling relaxes pressure, or the push seems to be counter intuitive, BBT proceeds to join an opportunistic wagon (scrambles, boon, anatole, tth again, me twice, once opportunistic)
It has also became clear that the same players start becoming active whenever he begins to be tunneled again (massive, greencrayons, ruffles)
In addition to this three way pattern we have saw dozens of times already, there is a shockingly similar transparency between two cases, "ruffles and green crayons".
This pattern alone warrants a policy lynch just to unearth the scum on his wagon.
At this rate, the only possibilities left are "BBT is town being protected by scum, or scum being protected by scum.
Now the only reason I doubt this LOR, is because there are two strong wagons right now, and if scum were trying to establish a town bloc on a player, it wouldn't of happened in this context (given I know I'm town).

In other words, there are two wagons going on, and on D1, usually one would of been tipped by scum now.
They've had about a dozen pages to defend either me or BBT, and usually at this point scum would just finish one of the players off, and have a solid town read simply for defending a now dead townie.
I highly doubt scum would draw it out for this long, which makes me believe scum are defending one of the two wagons.

Given the shit cases being thrown at me, and the multitude of scum tells committed by BBT, it is clear who we have to lynch.
At this point, we're pretty much fighting an uphill battle to get scum to finally bus.

The case on me is pretty much "Csareo doesn't make sense", or I think, because it isn't comprehensible in the slightest. Thanks, please hammer!

[Csareo]

This post is also important. BBT and TTH claim to be neighbors, and posted the pre topic.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6235308

[Csareo]

@Greencrayons- Apparently you didn't realize all your case was is "Association tells". Please rephrase it, as you have failed to give a slightly good case on me.

[Csareo]

Which reminds me, show me the moderators post BBT. I'm sick of having to keep asking.
By DoctorPepper's own words, anything that isn't indicative of alignment is fair game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If DP says it's OK, I'll do it.

I've already told you it doesn't say anything though.

[Csareo]

If DP says it's OK, I'll do it.

I've already told you it doesn't say anything though.

Doctor Pepper has posted Vote Counts several times since the last time you "Asked".
He already gave you an answer. If it doesn't have your allignment, then it's fair game.
Post. It. Now. Scum

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:13 am
Hi guys, during night and pre game, you may talk here!

[Green Crayons]

Can someone give me a summary of what happened in this game so far?

lol @ Csareo's summary

Here you go:

- BBT and TTH are neighbors. They at first didn't trust each other much, but now BBT thinks TTH is probtown, and TTH mentioned she was having second thoughts about her BBT vote when she was last present in the thread. They, as neighbors, have a QT. They have been allowed by the mod to quote from that thread. They have quoted everything but the first and last posts, which were posted by the mod, because they don't know if that is acceptable.

- wake asks a bunch of questions that repeat themselves (usually tending to deal with the neighborhood mechanic), but the kid's got a good heart and is probtown, so try to look past that failing.

- Csareo asks a bunch of questions that repeat themselves (usually tending to deal with everything under the goddamn sun), usually on the heels of wake's repeated questions. The jury's out on just how good his heart actually is.

- Flubber doesn't like Anatole, because Anatole apparently goes for "low hanging fruit" that may or may not be alignment indicative.

- GreyICE (the first of your slot) threw down a vote on Anatole under the theory that one should Lynch All Liars (tm), on the basis that (1) Anatole had said X was his experience with neighbors, (2) GreyICE found a previous game in which Anatole had played and which neighbors were present, (3) GreyICE asserted that this previous game was actually NOT-X, rather than the supposed X Anatole had claimed. BBT jumped onto that vote. Then the thread collectively explained that this previously game actually did stand for X, not NOT-X, and that Anatole hadn't been lying. GreyICE fled the game.

- Omph (the second of your slot) had a stylish entry post, but then didn't follow through with anything. I had to explain to him how I conjured up my own entry post, which I think is pretty bullshit since I know nobody read it because it's pointless.

- BBT and Csareo are the dueling wagons. They both have not awesome personalities that very clearly rub people the wrong way, but we're all refined ladies and gents here, and so we want to hang them for supposedly valid reasons.

- BBT is suspected because allegedly (1) he's a neighbor, (2) he immediately followed GreyICE's readily verifiable-as-wrong vote against Anatole, (3) he changes his vote frequently, (4) his votes are reactionary. I'm sure others can add to this.

- Csareo is suspected by allegedly (1) buddying wake at a time when wake and Anatole were internet screaming at each other over some pretty minor BS, (2) got super defensive about being called out on buddying, instead of simply saying "yeah well I agreed with wake so why wouldn't I have said whatever it is I said?"), (3) supposedly did a scum slip when he said that "when BBT flips town" instead of "if BBT flips town," but frankly in the context it made sense to me as BBT had just said that he was going to flip town, (4) he pushed a pretty bad case against BBT in tandem with lining up lynches in the form of BBT-TTH (the neighbors), suggesting an attempted mislynch, (5) he has vilified with those who disagree with his BBT suspicions, which he clearly connected to setting up future vote pushes against such players regardless of whether BBT flips town or scum, (6) he's gone out of his way to defensively answer questions that were not actually posted to him, and (7) he likes to reduce the totality of the suspicions against him as simply "buddying" and "associative tells," though one time he said that he was accused of "tunneling," but that's just him getting overexcited about what all suspicion things he's done in this thread.

[Csareo]

What is the title called? Word for word?

[Green Crayons]

(You can probably guess where my vote is.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am for sure not posting thread title unless Mod confirms I can.

[Csareo]

buddying wake at a time when wake and Anatole were internet screaming at each other over some pretty minor BS

Again with this buddying nonsense. You're driving me crazy,

supposedly did a scum slip when he said that "when BBT flips town" instead of "if BBT flips town," but frankly in the context it made sense to me as BBT had just said that he was going to flip town

This was obviously a grammar error. Everyone has messed up like that before, and it's a bullshit reason to lynch people.

he pushed a pretty bad case against BBT in tandem with lining up lynches in the form of BBT-TTH (the neighbors), suggesting an attempted mislynch, (5) he has vilified with those who disagree with his BBT suspicions, which he clearly connected to setting up future vote pushes against such players regardless of whether BBT flips town or scum,

1. Being wrong is not a scum tell
2. You don't know what people will flip, so you can't make a case based off the premise I'm scum. That's called a fallacy.

he likes to reduce the totality of the suspicions against him as simply "buddying" and "associative tells," though one time he said that he was accused of "tunneling," but that's just him getting overexcited about what all suspicion things he's done in this thread.

Because all your case has been is accusations of buddying and associative tells.
I'm convinced you don't know how to actually scum hunt.

[Wake1]

I am for sure not changing my vote, either.

Kindly quote what the mod said in your PT.

You can't, because it's alignment-indicative...

...which shouldn't be if you're Neighbors.

[Csareo]

Greencrayons has literally the shittiest case alive. She just likes to stretch it out for more than it's worth. Csareo buddies with wake. Csareo is trying to manafacture future lynches (which relies on me being scum to even make sense. As many users have pointed out, it is a counter wagon. We need a flip. Break the gridlock, please.

[Csareo]

I am for sure not posting thread title unless Mod confirms I can.

Why not? This is pretty much a give away that it isn't a "neighborhood" PT.
A flip would resolve this neighborhood bullshit once and for all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Kindly quote what the mod said in your PT.

I just did.

[Csareo]

We want to know the title of the PT.