Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[PeregrineV]

Can I pick who hammers me then?

I'm not one for letting scum have things how they want them. Feel free to hammer yourself when the time comes though.

Wait, you're alive? I thought you were just a talking dummie.

Yea this is the kind of content Aronis is up to producing here. No desire to find scum. No desire to help he town. Kill it now.

@PV: I have my doubts about Nacho as well but he's not the lynch for today and it isn't going to get the support today.

My biggest issue with the Aronis lynch is the fact he hammered Sala. I very rarely find scum hammering scum, just because it makes it harder for them to win. Wagon, yes. Hammer, not so much.

Why is he a better lynch than Nacho?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: CTD

[Nachomamma8]

I think Peregribe is town!

[Iecerint]

Because of his case on you?

[Nachomamma8]

Yep.
I switched to Salamence because I was trying to get a lynch. I generally have no problem voting with scumreads.

[CrashTextDummie]

Toasty, are you for real? You have one legitimate criticism of my play, I really am woefully undercontributing. The rest of your post is borderline nonsensical.

1)With regards to Aronis town, innocent until proven guilty yo

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a profoundly silly statement to make in the context of mafia. That aside, there's a reason I asked this question of Nacho and not of you:

thank god, for a minute there i thought we weren't gonna lynch scum today

It's a problematic post either way because it's the kind of smug and smart-ass I associate with scum play, but if he can't back it up with a well reasoned Aronis town read, I'd consider it strongly indicative of Nacho-scum. It's a week later now and he still hasn't backed it up, so yeah.

2) Sorry but you are wrong about the Salamance push. Idk why you think Dry-Fit is scum.

His Salamance push looks to me like a hard bus followed by a 180 when he claimed and a subsequent backpeddal, but I'll get to this in a seperate post.

4) wishy washy on Aronis but also asking people why they have townreads on him (when he doesn't have a strong opinion one way or another)

My stance on Aronis is not wishy washy. He was a strong scum read yesterday and he's a less strong scum read today. Asking people for reads and for them to explain their reads is the bread and butter of scum hunting and you can't be seriously suggesting that it's scummy.

What's your read on Nacho?

[Dry-fit]

This is just the kind of situation I was trying to avoid. We have a day and 7 hours before deadline and no one close to a lynch. Aronis is in the lead with 2 votes. So SC and CTD, now is the time to vote your scumread. Everyone else, why won't you consider voting Aronis here?

My biggest issue with the Aronis lynch is the fact he hammered Sala. I very rarely find scum hammering scum, just because it makes it harder for them to win. Wagon, yes. Hammer, not so much.

Why is he a better lynch than Nacho?

Well that's not really my experience. Scum can hammer scum especially when their buddy is doomed anyway.

Aronis is a beter lynch because he doesn't want to be helpful to the town and hasn't done townie things. Nacho has done things like pushing Sal and defending me that looked townie. My problem with him is that I don't see where he's been coming from this game day.

I think Peregribe is town!

Well that's a start. Now vote Aronis.

[Dry-fit]

2) Sorry but you are wrong about the Salamance push. Idk why you think Dry-Fit is scum.

His Salamance push looks to me like a hard bus followed by a 180 when he claimed and a subsequent backpeddal, but I'll get to this in a seperate post.

Believe me I'm not a good enough player that I can bus the shit out of my buddies and win as scum. Also you think I speifically bussed my buddy who had the dayvig, when scum was planning to use it to win in lylo? I mean if scum don't have daytalk they may not have known about it, but if they do it wouldn't make much sense to bus Sal and ruin their own plan.

[CrashTextDummie]

Believe me I'm not a good enough player that I can bus the shit out of my buddies and win as scum. Also you think I speifically bussed my buddy who had the dayvig, when scum was planning to use it to win in lylo? I mean if scum don't have daytalk they may not have known about it, but if they do it wouldn't make much sense to bus Sal and ruin their own plan.

It's true that scum knowing/not knowing Salamance had the dayvig is a pretty significant distinction and that bussing would have been strongly discouraged if they have daytalk.

I tried to address it in my first post of the day. The only thing I can really add is that in general I just don't find vote hopping scummy. I've also seen scum attack vote hopping many times as a way to manufacture a case. Naked voting I do find scummy. I don't see why this is a problem. I think there were good reasons to attack PV for his vote, but also illegetimate reasons to do so.

The problem is that I don't think Pere was vote hopping by whatever definition you are applying (he did switch his vote around, but not excessively so). He was vote hopping only in the sense that he didn't justify his votes (aka "naked voting") , which could be construed as switching votes for the sake of switching votes. And in context, I think it's clear that's what Salamance was trying to insinuate.

Dry-fit: "Pere is naked voting, I think that's scummy".
Salamance: "I agree, he's vote hopping".
Dry-fit: "What an opportunistic thing to say!"

That's how I read the situation. It's not natural to me that you would reach the conclusion that Sal was opportunistic in his push against Pere because it's completely normal and expected for a player of either alignment to egg a developing wagon on that they were trying to push for a significant amount of time. I also still have trouble wrapping my head around you calling Pere's voting behavior "not alignment indicative". Even with the distinction that vote hopping isn't scummy but naked voting is, I find that statement to be inconsistent.

I will grant that "vote hopping is a scummy accusation (in any context)" is a valid reason for you to suspect Sal, but I maintain that I think you were over reaching in your push against him.

One other thing I'd like addressed from you:

Yeah, I misanalyzed the situation.

How exactly did you misanalyse the situation? You were the strongest proponent of a Salamance lynch and you specifically attacked him for his early game dayvig discussion, so I find it dubious that you bought his claim so easily.

[CrashTextDummie]

I think StrangerCoug and Iecerint are solidly town, the former for dismissing Sal's claim outright, the latter for organically reaching the same conclusion.
I think ToastyToast and Pere are decently town, the former for his general reaction to Sal's claim, the latter for overall interaction with Sal.

Process of elimination leaves Aronis, Nacho, Dry-Fit, Xayzeck as scum candidates. Xay hasn't done anything significantly scummy to my knowledge. Dry-Fit and Aronis I don't think are scum together. I'm pretty sure that makes Nacho the best lynch.

unvote, vote: Nacho

Speaking of, what do you make of Nacho's naked vote on me, Dry-fit?

[Dry-fit]

And in context, I think it's clear that's what Salamance was trying to insinuate.

This might be the source of our disagreement then. That's not the impression I got. It seemed to me that Sal was saying PV was scummy because of the number of people he'd voted in a short span of time. Whether PV was actually votehopping or not isn't what I was interested in either. I was interested in Sal's accusation, which in my experience is the kind of accusation more likely to come from scum.

Dry-fit: "Pere is naked voting, I think that's scummy".
Salamance: "I agree, he's vote hopping".
Dry-fit: "What an opportunistic thing to say!"

A large part of the reason I saw it as opportunistic is because of the tone of Sal's post:

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

It's true that players want to egg on wagons they like but this struck me as over the top based on the tone of "squirm baby squirm." Add to that the fact that PV was the only real counterwagon that ever appeared to Sal's.

I also still have trouble wrapping my head around you calling Pere's voting behavior "not alignment indicative". Even with the distinction that vote hopping isn't scummy but naked voting is, I find that statement to be inconsistent.

I didn't say his voting behavior wasn't alignment indicative. I said vote hopping isn't alignment indicative in the position PV was in.

Yeah, I misanalyzed the situation.

How exactly did you misanalyse the situation? You were the strongest proponent of a Salamance lynch and you specifically attacked him for his early game dayvig discussion, so I find it dubious that you bought his claim so easily.

I believed him because killing Elyse was just bad scum play. Elyse was a player who seemed likely to be mislynched at some point in the game. And it wasn't like Elyse would be obvtown after Sal flipped scum. It was such a protown kill that I thougt it had to come from town. That combined with his cop claim made me think it was more prudent to let Sal live at least one night to get a result. But then people pointed out that Sal should have claimed long before and he wouldn't have had to use his shot, if that was his plan. And they pointed out that Sal had said things earlier in the game about how the dayvig should be played that contradicted what he was saying after his shot. Those are the things I misanalyzed.

Speaking of, what do you make of Nacho's naked vote on me, Dry-fit?

I don't like it of course. I also don't like that he won't engage me on my Aronis read when he has me as such a strong townread.

[StrangerCoug]

This does not really tell us anything other than how long he's alive is a factor in how scummy he is, which is unreliable by itself in the first place. As Aronis said, support what you're saying.

lol ur quick with your votes

And your problem is?

Will you please answer me?

[CrashTextDummie]

I believed him because killing Elyse was just bad scum play. Elyse was a player who seemed likely to be mislynched at some point in the game. And it wasn't like Elyse would be obvtown after Sal flipped scum. It was such a protown kill that I thougt it had to come from town.

I don't think that's at all consistent with what you said at the time:

I'm pretty sure Salamence is scum if Elyse is town.

I still want Salamence lynched really.

At least your immediate response wasn't that it was "such a protown kill".

That combined with his cop claim made me think it was more prudent to let Sal live at least one night to get a result.

And that's not consistent with what you said at the time either:

You were right CTD.

That's not "let him live one night at least", that's a complete 180 of your read on him.

What it is consistent with is a scumbuddy committed to a bus to such a degree that he couldn't reasonably back down, who jumped at the opportunity to do so when it looked like Salamance had saved himself with a fake claim.

[CrashTextDummie]

I don't like it of course. I also don't like that he won't engage me on my Aronis read when he has me as such a strong townread.

Are you going to do anything about it?

[Nachomamma8]

First of all, with regards to Aronis, I've played with him a few times and I've never found him to be a player that seems extremely driven or classically protown. So points of "he hasn't done anything townie" or "he hasn't explained his reasoning" are generally horrible and I honestly don't care for them even a little bit. I see Aronis taking a the strong Salamence position and then completely backing down even while assuming he was still scum (otherwise the "looking at elyse/xay has shown me xay is scummy" doesn't really make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

So, Juls, did you get a reaction you were looking for with that, or are you still looking?

It didn't go long enough; I don't think to get anything solid. But it was pretty obvious I was faking. So I'm not the dayvig which is super obvious now.

I think it was more like flirting.

You wish! :p

Anywho...I agree with Nachomamma. If the day vig does not occur today then we must assume scum owns it. In fact, I suggest we put someone at L-1 and then force everyone to do exactly what I did

Kill: Soinso

to flush it out before the end of the day. You don't have to be swayed by "town" but you gotta shoot. Agreed? Good.

Also, I am not liking Burn and stranger coug at the moment. I'm not crazy about SC's theories regarding the dayvig but that's not really why I am not liking him. It's more that I feel like he just said what "felt" townie but wasn't really townie. Burn agreeing throws me off though cause that seemed more scummy the actual theories that SC was suggesting. I doubt they are scum together.

Vote: Burn

I liked Juls's approach more than I liked anyone else's approach to the dayvig, though. I think that Juls aggressively pushing to force the dayvig to out was pretty fucking townie in and of itself, and I can't really see a way for scum to wiggle out of the plan (was going to wait until today to implement it because it would have better us confirmed confirmed scum).

[Nachomamma8]

I would like to challenge her on her "feels townie but isn't townie" comment because I'm with her on StrangerCoug feeling townie but don't understand how that suddenly translates to him not being townie.

When I initially read it, I felt like it wasn't sincere feeling. Like it was more of a "meh, this is what I would say if I were town". But when burn piggybacked it that seemed far more scummy. As in "this townie is making the argument I want so I will just agree with him and he will get blamed if it blows up". So I feel pretty good that they aren't scumbuddies together and burn is the more likely of the two to be scum in my opinion. These aren't solid reads, they are page 5 reads. They have every opportunity to change them but so far burn hasn't done anything to make me feel different and I don't think SC has posted since (?). So I'm good.

As for Salamence, he is firmly planted in neutral land for me at the moment. Probably not opposed to lynching him if need be.

I also felt that her attack on strangercoug came across as pretty fucking town because it seemed honest: this didn't seem like a line of attack scum would come up with because it's not a surface attack in the least bit and tonally it just seemed honest. There's also her next post which I will pull up in a minute, can't really copy and paste on mobile without going through the struggle:

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a little Leary of how fast salamence's wagon grew. Town don't typically come together that easily on day 1. It could be a bus sure, but the speed is troublesome for me. I've only skimmed since my last post. I have fantasy football today but will read up tomorrow.

I liked this quote because 1) it seems like something that scum would be weary of saying if they weren't properly caught up and hadn't been in thread in a while (extremely risky to stick your neck out for a scumbuddy if you don't have the towncred to back it up), And secondly the way salamence took this reasoning and ran with it and appealed to me to stop his wagon doesn't at all seem like a scumbuddy interaction to me: it seems like salamence saw a townie giving a reason to feel uncomfortable about his wagon and ran with it.

[Nachomamma8]

My read on Salamence originally deteriorated because my entire scumread was based on him doing absolutely nothing scumread and then he actually started doing things that weren't absolutely horrible. Then Toasty came in and was town, meaning I got a bit skeptical of the Witness Protection wagon who looked mostly town except for Peregrine who I had a townread on based entirely on gut. Then, I pushed Iecerint for a while and that didn't gain shit for traction and then Gemini moved to Salamence who was my number 2 choice at the time, so I followed: I think that Peregrine picking up on the vote moves is a good sign because it's not absolute bullshit and it's not "he's not posting" and is another sign of Peregrine sticking his neck out that I talked about earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

:

thank god, for a minute there i thought we weren't gonna lynch scum today

It's a problematic post either way because it's the kind of smug and smart-ass I associate with scum play, but if he can't back it up with a well reasoned Aronis town read, I'd consider it strongly indicative of Nacho-scum. It's a week later now and he still hasn't backed it up, so yeah.

At the end of the day, I didn't really like the wagon and I didn't really have a strong scumread. It didn't feel like the day was trending towards a scum lynch, it felt like the day was trending towards a lazy lynch that usually ends up on town. When Salamence took his shot when it was inconsistent with his shit earlier in the thread, it seemed pretty obvious that he was scum and he was going to get lynched so I expressed that sentiment. I think the "oh he hasn't expressed an Aronis read" bit is a bad attack: I almost was replaced, you almost were replaced, that means we haven't been around that much lately and thus the reason I haven't been talking about Aronis reads is probably because I haven't had time to talk about it: attributing it to me not having an Aronis read is just taking advantage of my absence.

[CrashTextDummie]

I think the "oh he hasn't expressed an Aronis read" bit is a bad attack: I almost was replaced, you almost were replaced, that means we haven't been around that much lately and thus the reason I haven't been talking about Aronis reads is probably because I haven't had time to talk about it: attributing it to me not having an Aronis read is just taking advantage of my absence.

It's more of an observation than an attack. I felt that you coming back with a vote on me rather then the answer you had promised was a pretty good indicator that you didn't feel a pressing need to actually honor the request.

I can certainly empathize with a busy schedule.

Who's my scum buddy?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know.
I don't feel particularly confident in you-scum in the first place, honestly. What happened to us discussing yours and my Aronis read?

[Nachomamma8]

holy fuck i fucked that grammar up
oh well!

[Dry-fit]

I don't like it of course. I also don't like that he won't engage me on my Aronis read when he has me as such a strong townread.

Are you going to do anything about it?

Well I didn't want to do anything about it because I was worried you were trying to manipulate me into lynching Nacho because I was concerned by the lack of viable wagons. But it looks like I don't have any choice now.

Unvote. Vote: Nachomamma8.

If town wants to actually show up and get an Aronis wagon going I'd be all for it.

14 hours til deadline.

[ToastyToast]

vote:aronis

Much better lynch than nacho