Newbie 1543: Nightmare Mafia (Scum Win)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Wgeurts

Serious vote.

[Brian Skies]

Why are you feeling a lot more attached to it?

It's just a minor associative tell I'm keeping an eye on. Copper promised me goodies later, so it can wait.

Not much really, the main cause of Coppers suspicion seems to be based of a disagreement in the RVS stage and what a towns person should do. I see how voting gives town information so in later days but im also going to guess that after wg accidently hammering on someone he would naturally be more careful with his vote. If i was going to pick a townier of the two it would be copper purely because if he continues to lists his reads as he has been doing i think it will be easy to get a read off him.

Heh. I actually have Copper as a little scummier than Wg. But that's mostly because it feels like I'm looking in a mirror when I look at Wg. I don't really care much for Copper's reads. It's great he's letting us know where he stands, but it just seems like he's trying a little hard to look town. You don't need to declare your reads in every post. And I don't like the way he's jumping at everything Wg does and trying to make him look scummy.

I also feel like I'm getting buddied by Copper and it doesn't feel very good on a gut level.

[Breshke]

It's great he's letting us know where he stands, but it just seems like he's trying a little hard to look town. You don't need to declare your reads in every post.

I agree that it isnt necessary i just think that if he can keep it up as he has said he will it could be an easy read as his though process will be out in the open for everyone to see in every single post. How much this will actually help i guess ill just have to wait and see

[Breshke]

Sorry still learning how to get the quotes working right.

fixed

[copper223]

VOTE: Wgeurts

Serious vote.

Reasons?

[wgeurts]

@wgeurts: here are my reasons regarding the questions you asked!

Great, this will be interesting. It helps at least that you didn't ignore my request.

Thor if I promise not to hammer will you be happy?

Why do you care about him being happy with you? Further Brian asked you a question along the same lines so I wasn't the only one to pick up on this.

I'm not trying to make Thor happy, I was trying to explain why Thor's vote was not *fully* random.

You don't know their alignment so you have really no idea about their motivation for doing what they did, maybe he was really annoyed with you for the other game, maybe he thinks since he saw you hammer without checking if someone is at l-1 that you may be an easy lynch to pull off as mafia, maybe he thinks you are a good person to preassure since he saw a misplay in another game... the fact you are so sure about why he did something doesn't come from a town mindest, where paranoia about the other player's motivations should reign supreme.

You have a fair point here, he may have done the vote for these lynches. One way or another the other game I died day 2 in has probably got something to do with it.

Other stuff I picked up on

As scum you should also have no worries about voting someone

this is false, as scum every time you vote someone you increase your chances of getting caught, also as scum you know every players alignment so you tend to be reticent to vote, you can either chose to vote your team mate and risk exposing him, or to vote town knowing that that person is town and you might have to convince us you did that for valid reasons, knowing those reasons will be fabricated.

Fair point here but I disagree, the longer a scum abstains from voting the more obvious it is they are scum, especially if they then hammer or suddenly change their vote to a growing wagon. A scum will eventually always try and hitch-hike on an existing wagon, not try and start one themselves as that creates too much attention; something they don't want.

Voting is giving information and scum are always against doing so.

Indeed, however who is in a vote provides less info than who is pushing the vote. Also, see how I'm abstaining until I see more information from others voting, I'm not going to not vote and I'm just waiting for a chance to pounce.

Another reason why mafia doesn't like to vote ppl, especially not being the first to do so, is that they may need friends later on to avoid getting lynched, that's also why giving early reads and updating them is good, you get profiled and have much less wiggle room as mafia so you don't want to do that, as town it's fine cause it should lead to everyone else correctly reading your alignment.

I agree here however this isn't what I'm doing. I'm waiting for a slip up to be made and start a push against the person who looks suspicious regardless if people are already going after them.

after wg accidently hammering on someone he would naturally be more careful with his vote

This is true and something I'm also trying to factor in, you pointing this out though is a very weak link between the two of you, in case this becomes relevant later on.

Read the game in the central park area, I think it's called nightless vengeful mafia or summin. However past experiences are from the past so I'm still learning.

Your defence please my suspicion, I'll unvote for now.

Unvote

[Belisarius]

It's great he's letting us know where he stands, but it just seems like he's trying a little hard to look town. You don't need to declare your reads in every post.

I agree that it isnt necessary i just think that if he can keep it up as he has said he will it could be an easy read as his though process will be out in the open for everyone to see in every single post. How much this will actually help i guess ill just have to wait and see
Is this your first game?

[Breshke]

It's great he's letting us know where he stands, but it just seems like he's trying a little hard to look town. You don't need to declare your reads in every post.

I agree that it isnt necessary i just think that if he can keep it up as he has said he will it could be an easy read as his though process will be out in the open for everyone to see in every single post. How much this will actually help i guess ill just have to wait and see
Is this your first game?

On this site, kind of ive been in like 1 other game but replaced out basically straight away. I have played one game on another site though.

[wgeurts]

Ok, who else has this game as there first on MS?
This can make a difference on my reads.

[WaffleGhost]

Spoiler: why is it strange to explain other ppls votes as town

You don't know their alignment so you have really no idea about their motivation for doing what they did, maybe he was really annoyed with you for the other game, maybe he thinks since he saw you hammer without checking if someone is at l-1 that you may be an easy lynch to pull off as mafia, maybe he thinks you are a good person to preassure since he saw a misplay in another game... the fact you are so sure about why he did something doesn't come from a town mindest, where paranoia about the other player's motivations should reign supreme.

I would have to agree with this at first glance. Though I do want to say that later in the game, when people have reads on people as town, I don't think it'd be unusual for them to defend someone because they believe them to be town. That's just my logic though.

At this point I have no reads I would attach any significance to. I'll check back in 3-5 hours and hopefully have done some thinking.

[Belisarius]

Vote Count 1.01

Originalchris: (1) Breshke
Thor665: (1) Brian Skies

(L-2)

wgeurts: (3) Thor665, copper223, BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting: Originalchris, WaffleGhost, serrapaladin, wgeurts

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-10-11 23:30:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[/area]

[wgeurts]

One questin what does (L-2) mean?

[copper223]

2 more votes are needed to lynch

[wgeurts]

2 more votes are needed to lynch

Ok, thanks.
Also could someone sum up why I look scummy?
The only one who I can give a little credit is copper, who I read as null at the moment as he answered my question without any flaws.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Wgeurts

Serious vote.

I'm going to vote you until you give reasons why it's serious. This seems scummy, hopping on to a wagon with 2 people on it and not explainig yet calling it serious.
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Thor665]

For that vote without a reason.

Like, how can you pick on the newbies without giving them something to defend against?

How can you complain that the very first post of the game lacks reasoning?
I could have given a joke/derp reason, sure, but what reason did you expect me to give that would be helpful? Please be specific about your thoughts at the time.

- Thor: fence scummy cause your post seemed kind of miffed, maybe you rolled mafia with a newer player?

How did I seem miffed?
I am really curious because my opening post is a copy/paste I use in all Newbie games I IC so I'm really interested by this thought of yours - especially since it fuels not only a scum read on me, but a vote on someone else for me 'bussing' them.

Also, your pronoun plus your avatar is annoying.

I definetly didn't hammer someone in my first post some micro game.

You missed this the first time someone noted it, and then went a step further later.
There is a *very explicit rule of this forum*.

If a game is ONGOING (meaning not finished) you cannot and should not specifically discuss it. You should stop doing so now. You can mention that we've been in a game before (and frankly with some of the derp modding I've seen even that gets raised eyebrows) but you assuredly should say nothing else.

Indeed pressure is an amazing tool, I fully agree with this post here however I prefer to not randomly lynch for now and observe the results of others doing so. That's just how I play, the second a scum or someone makes a mistake I will pounce and attack until I'm sure they are town or scum.

"That's how you play"?
Describe to me when you developed this playstyle as best you are able considering my prior note to you.

this is false, as scum every time you vote someone you increase your chances of getting caught, also as scum you know every players alignment so you tend to be reticent to vote, you can either chose to vote your team mate and risk exposing him, or to vote town knowing that that person is town and you might have to convince us you did that for valid reasons, knowing those reasons will be fabricated. Voting is giving information and scum are always against doing so. Another reason why mafia doesn't like to vote ppl, especially not being the first to do so, is that they may need friends later on to avoid getting lynched, that's also why giving early reads and updating them is good, you get profiled and have much less wiggle room as mafia so you don't want to do that, as town it's fine cause it should lead to everyone else correctly reading your alignment.

Unvote: wgeurts
Vote: BBT

[wgeurts]

Wait so the rule forbids all forms of discussion on ongoing games, I'll stop speaking on it now then. I thought info was fine as long as it was not of any important content.

[wgeurts]

I develloped that stule since yesterday and I'm now applying it to all games I'm in.

[Thor665]

Do you agree your "that's how I play" is a totally new thing though?
Because the way you phrased it makes it sound like something eternal and obvious.

[wgeurts]

I'll explain, I'm trying different styles of play in different games; finding what to do and what not. I now know, don't quick hammer for instance and no lynch isn't a popular option for D1.

[Thor665]

I develloped that stule since yesterday and

I'm now applying it to all games I'm in.

I'll explain,

I'm trying different styles of play in different games;

finding what to do and what not. I now know, don't quick hammer for instance and no lynch isn't a popular option for D1.

The two comments in bold appear to contradict each other.
Clarify?

[wgeurts]

Most games I'm in are now past D1 and are in D2. This game and another are just beginning and I'm applying it to them, changing tatics in a game looks suspicous so I'm not changing play style in game which already further in-game. I made a mistake, it should have been; I'm using it in all games

from of then

.

[copper223]

@wgeurts:

Spoiler: You don't look so scummy to me anymore:

- I get your point about wanting to tell us it was not a fully random vote, could be a valid reason for speaking up.
- I like your push back and unvote on me, it looks more like something a town would do, at least I can't think of why mafia would behave in the same way other than trying to mimic town.
- I like you making a list of your reads, please continue doing so.
- I think we have pretty big disagreements on how to play the game in certain scenarios, but although I don't often agree with what you said, it does seem geniuine, hence towny.
- I don't like Toffee for jumping on your wagon without giving reasons.
- I like what you just did with the Toffee vote, while I was writing this
- I like your reaction after understanding you are at L-2.

I still dislike:
- Your null-town read on Thor, a good point Breshke made which you haven't replied to.

UNVOTE: wgeurts

I have now a fence/town read on you.

@BlueBloodToffee:

Voting without reason as 3rd on a wagon, simply won't cut it. Scummy, for the moment, prone to change as soon as you flesh out your play more, after all I had the same read on wgeurts to start up with. fence/scummy.

@Brian Skies:

Spoiler: why I'm chaning my read from slightly town to mildly scummy on you

First off, the answer to your earlier question. I wanted the first wagon to end up on a relatively new player, it's the equivalent of what we do irl mafia by fake red checking the new guy, he/she is much more likely to give off a strong mafia or town vibe from that, compared to a veteran player, that's why I didn't want to start my vote by going on the IC which would most likely yield very little to start with, it felt like a missed opportunity to use the RVS stage on otherwise.

Let's now put your buddying fears to rest, I'm changing my read on you from slightly town to mildly scummy, reasons being:

Many answers you give is open to double interpretation or deliberately vague, leaving you plenty of room to make stuff up, examples:

I wasn't. Although I'm feeling a lot more attached to it now.

so you can claim it's a real read or not depending on convenience

But that's mostly because it feels like I'm looking in a mirror when I look at Wg.

What does this even mean?

It's great he's letting us know where he stands, but it just seems like he's trying a little hard to look town.

This is the kind of read that casts doubts in people's mind and can't really be rebutted, what does trying to hard to be town mean, you should try as hard as possible as far as I am concerned, if everyone tries hard and mafia has to be super town alignend to blend in you practically won the game already as town.

Slightly incorrect/misleading statements

- You don't need to declare your reads in every post.

I put reads in my posts only when I had something new to say in order to update them, not after every post for the sake of it as you seem to be implying.

And I don't like the way he's jumping at everything Wg does and trying to make him look scummy.

I pointed out

some

things wgeurts said that looked scummy to me, not

everything

as you seem to be implying.
These kind of disingenuous interpretations seem to be designed only to cast doubt on my alignment in a subtle way, hence I really don't like them.

Finally you putting a lot of weight, by mentioning it in 3 different posts, behind my "I will reply later with my reasons", to your query about my starting vote, is starting to feel like some kind of setup or role hunting you are planning / doing.

VOTE: Brian Skies

@Breshke

I have you as slightly more town than before, mainly thanks to the nice read on wgeurts about Thor you gave.

@Thor665

I found it strange you would start the game with a TL:DR and a copy paste, kind of an uninspired/depressing way to start off with, I like to say hello and let's have fun in my games for instance, I'll check to see if you do it all games and if so will change my read on that. The bussing accusation was just thrown out there to see what happened, the vote on wgeurts was random in the sense that I wanted the RVS wagon to end up on a newer player for the reasons I mentioned before to Brian, and after you voted him I checked to see if he met these requirements.

Haha about the pronoun and avatar, sorry man .

I liked your vote on BBT, I don't like you asking for a lot of information from other players but not giving much back, what is your read on Breshke? and on Brian?

Pending read on you for when I have time to check if you always start games in the same way as mentioned.

[wgeurts]

Reads now:
Scum: BBT
Lean Scum: none.
Null: Thor
Lean Town: Breshke
Town: Copper

Thor's playing as he usually does, but this doesn't say anything as he could be faking it. Tip for new guys; watch your wording.

[Thor665]

@BlueBloodToffee:

Voting without reason as 3rd on a wagon, simply won't cut it. Scummy, for the moment, prone to change as soon as you flesh out your play more, after all I had the same read on wgeurts to start up with. fence/scummy.

Aren't I the third on BBT also without stated reason? Why didn't you ask me about that?

I found it strange you would start the game with a TL:DR and a copy paste, kind of an uninspired/depressing way to start off with, I like to say hello and let's have fun in my games for instance, I'll check to see if you do it all games and if so will change my read on that. The bussing accusation was just thrown out there to see what happened, the vote on wgeurts was random in the sense that I wanted the RVS wagon to end up on a newer player for the reasons I mentioned before to Brian, and after you voted him I checked to see if he met these requirements.

I liked your vote on BBT, I don't like you asking for a lot of information from other players but not giving much back, what is your read on Breshke? and on Brian?

Leaning town and leaning scum respectively.