Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This I don't like.

You think Shinobi is active?

[goodmorning]

No, but I think you've missed the point of Josh's post. Whether that's deliberate I don't know, but if it is it's disappointing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, can you elaborate?

[davesaz]

Repeating an earlier question as it may have been overlooked.

Case on NPAU

Jumpy vote hopping (All of his votes so far have apparently been serious, as per (105)): (33) (105) (224) (320) (439)

Finds MS unlikely to be scum, (224) but, despite MS's playstyle not changing, he considers him scum by (521). Yet, he barely pushes at MS, which is a marked change from his other accusations. I also did not notice him voting MS. Considering how much his votes have jumped around, this is inconsistent, especially when he jumps onto GM in (634). After all, if he was changing his playstyle because it made him look scummy, he should have stopped vote-hopping by that time. (If he was town, stopping scummy behavior would have made sense. Even if it cast suspicion on him, it would ultimately make the game clearer for the town. Scum thrive in confusion.)

There's some scummy wording and opportunistic attacks in those posts, too.

I also find it interesting just how fast the NPAU wagon broke up and how fast the GM wagon grew at the same time. I'll go back and see where votes changed from one wagon to the other and check if my thoughts match up.

This is a good enough post to make Scripten town if NPAU was lynched and flipped scum today.

The way you say this indicates you'd have a different read if things turned out differently?
Does the post itself have any alignment indicator for you? I see things but would be interested to see if others agree.

[davesaz]

I hate how everyone is drawing associative reads from everything.

I'm looking at them and they all look dumb. Maybe it's just me.

I hate how everyone is drawing associative reads from everything.

I'm looking at them and they all look dumb. Maybe it's just me.

I agree. Associative reads without flips/relevant information are indeed dumb.

Yeah I have never fully understood why people do it, but I'm guilty of doing it myself accidentally sometimes

You can get associative reads from the pattern of voting even before a lynch is reached, if you notice that 2 or more people are together when wagons swing, or counteract each other. And also from who people support or lock in on. But I would agree in part, you might have reason to say they're the same or opposite alignment, but not know which is which until there is a flip.

It is also possible to use associations in a PoE manner. It's much easier to find the negative "probably not associated with" than the positive. Someone who looks like they can't possibly be associated with anyone may be more likely to be not scum.

[uctriton00]

Your 729 answers it. I think if we are right on NPAU being scum it sets up some people to be town.

GM for same reasons why I've said I don't think they're on the same team.
Scripten for that well thought out case on NPAU (I would doubt its worth it to bus on Day 1 with 13 players, and I doubt a bus would have that much effort Scripten put. In my personal cases of bussing, usually it's some half assed sentence or idea, not a thought out case like that)

[uctriton00]

I.e. we are at plenty of liberty to be associative on Day 1. If any reads are wrong, then you adjust and move on

[Shinobi]

I hate how everyone is drawing associative reads from everything.

I'm looking at them and they all look dumb. Maybe it's just me.

I hate how everyone is drawing associative reads from everything.

I'm looking at them and they all look dumb. Maybe it's just me.

I agree. Associative reads without flips/relevant information are indeed dumb.

Yeah I have never fully understood why people do it, but I'm guilty of doing it myself accidentally sometimes

You can get associative reads from the pattern of voting even before a lynch is reached, if you notice that 2 or more people are together when wagons swing, or counteract each other. And also from who people support or lock in on. But I would agree in part, you might have reason to say they're the same or opposite alignment, but not know which is which until there is a flip.

It is also possible to use associations in a PoE manner. It's much easier to find the negative "probably not associated with" than the positive. Someone who looks like they can't possibly be associated with anyone may be more likely to be not scum.

Yeah. After flips.

Before flips, it's irrelevant. It's an awfully convenient way of having reads that can be changed without engaging someone or trying to understand their motivations.

[Shinobi]

Your 729 answers it. I think if we are right on NPAU being scum it sets up some people to be town.

GM for same reasons why I've said I don't think they're on the same team.
Scripten for that well thought out case on NPAU (I would doubt its worth it to bus on Day 1 with 13 players, and I doubt a bus would have that much effort Scripten put. In my personal cases of bussing, usually it's some half assed sentence or idea, not a thought out case like that)

Stuff like this doesn't make sense. If NPAU is scum, then sure, I guess. Maybe. It depends on who was pushing him and why.

If he's not, then we've basically enticed a shitload of people into believing they'll be more town by voting off a townie. <-------------------------An inherently mafia mindset oriented push.

[uctriton00]

Then you find the BS in the wagon and attack it, your odds of no scum on a wagon is rather dim

[goodmorning]

Hmm, can you elaborate?

Yeah, he meant, I believe, that if Shinobi were to begin posting content and being active that it would make people townread him.
It would be disappointing to me if you were misrepping Josh deliberately because it would be quite scummy, and I don't want you to be Scum.

As to associatives before flips: the worst of them is that they can get distracting and entice you into a mindset that you'll hold fervently to even if a saner person would have admitted incorrectness.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: uctriton

Okay. I have found the bullshit. I am attacking it.

[Malakittens]

@Desa:

I know that people do it. I fully witnessed players doing it in either a QT etc. I just never found it useful to myself to do it. I rather have a flip. I did it once on a game, but that was because I was in a full on tunnel and convinced myself this person was scum and to go on my own personal mission to seek out every single one of his scum buddies.

[Josh_B]

Maybe I should have said it like this.
IF you are active and make reasonable comments, even more people will town read you.

[Malakittens]

Mala, you going to respond to 696?

i did say I was going to just ignore you because I'm sick of being fired up everytime I come into this thread and see a post by you because you don't see that it's a playstyle clash that's affecting your read on me.

WE PLAY DIFFERENT, END OF STOREH.

[beastcharizard]

Prodded Hephaestus

Also, gonna put a VC here probably.

[davesaz]

Your 729 answers it. I think if we are right on NPAU being scum it sets up some people to be town.

GM for same reasons why I've said I don't think they're on the same team.
Scripten for that well thought out case on NPAU (I would doubt its worth it to bus on Day 1 with 13 players, and I doubt a bus would have that much effort Scripten put. In my personal cases of bussing, usually it's some half assed sentence or idea, not a thought out case like that)

If NPAU showed up as town, would that change things? That was what I was really asking.

[Malakittens]

Some of her posts have given me scum-gut feels (the whole Zeb thing, which I have already commented on), but then there is other posts by her that make her feel town. Such as the questioning which I have also pointed out because that does fit into her town meta. What I really don't like currently is how she hasn't made a comment on the BBT v I argument, which I expected town-Huntress to have taken a side. I have faced a few games where she has barely taken a stance on me besides knowing me for a while and probably having the vast meta to pretty much read-me-like-a-book. Although, I have also seen town her not make a read on me besides gut. My issue frankly is that she hasn't made one comment on my posting which makes me question whether or not she can't read me this game or she's trying to stay silent on it and sweep it under the rug. Either way it's been bothering me for a while so I was hoping that her current read through would give me a glimpse of her stance on BBT v I discussion.

I saw your exchanges with BBT as more about a clash of playstyles than anything else, but your reactions looked town to me so I didn't feel the need to comment, especially as I was already arguing with him about something else (Did you comment on that? If you did I think I missed it.). What about it did you expect me to take a side on? If it was the use of meta I gave BBT my opinion earlier that meta is a good tool. Although in your case a gut read seems to work better for me and it's currently saying town.

Do you think BBT is scum? You voted him briefly but I got the feeling that was more out of frustration with him than out of suspicion. I've got a null read on him at the moment.

By the way, that "vast meta" you speak of consists almost entirely of games in which you were town. There was one scum game early last year where you were lynched fairly early before I managed to get a proper read on you, but that's about it.

I'm more opening up to this is a playstyle clash. I thought maybe it was because he was scum, but I keep waffling on that read. I do have to do a run on his town meta, but I'm not really finding the time plus I think it's a waste of effort if his sig holds any truth.

I read your arguments, but I didn't respond to it at all no. I just didn't find that it needed a response, but I agreed with some of your points you made while questioning him though.

It's more he's annoying me in a little bit of a way. He reminds me a lot of Sets. (I'm not going to lie on that one.) I'm bouncing back and forth on him. Part of me wants to call him scum because he does remind me of the game he was scum in the newbie, but I do need to meta. I should probably do it now instead of trying to find time during the week which I know won't happen.

Right, but that still is more than they have access to in a way. (:P)

[Shinobi]

Your 729 answers it. I think if we are right on NPAU being scum it sets up some people to be town.

GM for same reasons why I've said I don't think they're on the same team.
Scripten for that well thought out case on NPAU (I would doubt its worth it to bus on Day 1 with 13 players, and I doubt a bus would have that much effort Scripten put. In my personal cases of bussing, usually it's some half assed sentence or idea, not a thought out case like that)

If NPAU showed up as town, would that change things? That was what I was really asking.

This is basically why we kill uct, for the record.

[Josh_B]

Anyways, I like josh's point. Josh can sit in the town pile for now.

I was town when I was pointing out that NPAU had a lot of scum reads.

Which makes it SUPER hard for me to put a town label on her. And I like Mala's meta read on GM because she provided reasoning that I am thinking might have truth to it (GM avoiding the thread as scum?).


However, the fast wagon helps in knocking her toward a towner side of null than a scummier.

I like this part. Not exactly a town read.. (A convenient stance just in case a wagon forms again.)

Malakittens wrote:

She was, but I was incorrect. Along with the pace of the wagon, some of my mild scum reads jumping on it and the incorrect direction of me thinking the posts in the micro were actual posts and not mod posts. I withdrew my vote.

Which scum reads? Why aren't you voting them?

I have gotten townvibes from Josh in the beginning of the game, but that has slowly faded and I'm more leaning towards scum. I don't like how he's trying to throw the word policy lynch down. I feel like he's more using his vote as a comprised vote rather than trying to hunt for actual scum. (Idk if that makes sense) Seems like he's trying to keep out of the spotlight and go for an easier target rather than using his vote and pushing someone harder.

I'm going to stop here for now and throw a vote on Josh because my computer is about to die and I'm too lazy to plug it in before it does so.

VOTE: Josh

Oh great, now I have a vote on Heph and a good reason to find her suspicious, so I'm scum.
I still think this a contradiction and an OMGUS. I only talked about policy lynches when I signed in at the beginning of the game. Is that when she was or wasn't getting town vibes? I'm not sure what kind of compromise my vote on Huntress was, nor my vote on Zeb, nor my vote on peabody, nor my vote on Heph. I didn't vote GM, so I'm not one of the scum reads that Mala talked about jumping on the GM wagon.
Who is the harder person that she thinks I should be going for?

I'm still good with heph lynch. But this.. this is a Mala that I've never seen before.

[Malakittens]

@ BBT: I'm trying to work out whether you have a genuine reason to call MS's play scummy, or whether you just used his playstyle as an excuse to vote him. You haven't said that you have any problem with his individual votes apart from the one on you, so it looks like you just threw out a buzzword - vote hopping - and called him scummy for it.

Okay.

Thanks meta'ing because I actually find this interesting.

Can you do me a favor and read this post. It's from a recent finished newbie of his (he was town there).

I just find it interesting that Corrino actually called him out on it and he never did answer it or if he did it wasn't quoted. I find it both odd and amusing all at the same time.

<<

Either way it's prob not relevant and I'm also misreading it

[Malakittens]

No because my reads are still in the stage that I call 'waffle' stage. Which is how I do sort my reads out. Exactly how I'm doing right now. If you try to get me to put someone in anorher category I can't promise you after a few posts it will still be in that same one and then you can use the reads list you forced me to post into me being scummy.

Also I was waiting for huntress to comment on us. That's what I was waiting on because she tends to ignore me as scum and interact very little so I was waiting for a reach out from her.

If you look at my posts to Josh you can see that I was never okay with his whole policy lynching. Just ISO go ISO me on that one.

But you said that you should be able to read Huntress and GM due to how much you have played with them. We're nearly 30 pages in and you're null on both of them...how do you think that looks?

I agreed you did not like Josh's policy lynching, in fact, I outright stated it. What I asked was; why are you voting him now for it and not way back at 160 when you complained about it?

You still didn't explain how your town-read on Josh changed to a scum-read, can you do that please?

*should* doesn't mean I always can.

I used to play with GM a lot, but we haven't really crossed paths since my time on my alt. Maybe one or twice after that and she's picked up some of my tells I had on her so they are no longer able to be used very accurately.

As for huntress read. that one also takes time, but sometimes I can pretty much gut read her. For instance one of an old newbie game I think by page 4[?] I had her as a really strong town read via gut. We had also faced each other in a micro and she was scum and I just sat reading her as null-town until like after she was hammered and I realized that she was flipping scum. -__-.
I think it's I need to figure out what motivation her posts are coming from and which likely alignment she is in order to read her.

It looks bad, but I really don't care because once I do get a read on them the game will become easier. Also I'm leaning on reading GM as town and I think I like that read.

I had a sligh town vibe on Josh from the effort in his 615.
It was just one of those posts that actually felt town because it made a point that NPAU could actually be town because of the amount of people scum reading him.

in his post 669 I didn't like this line:

I'm half tempted to vote NPAU in hopes that there has been bussing.

I hated it in fact. Like I said it felt comprising even though I doubt he would have actually gone through with it, but it felt off/odd. etc

i answered your question because i was in a giving mood, enjoy~~

[Metal Sonic]

too many walls that i dont feel like reading




/moralegoingdown

[davesaz]

You'd prefer one liners?

[Metal Sonic]

yea