Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[Shinobi]

Why do you think Wisdom is scum?

[Wisdom]

Sorry you're Scum and I have to get you lynched Wisdom

Interesting, I'd expect you to try and read me to confirm your read since you know me and I recall you saying you can read me pretty well.

You don't seem interested in that.

[Wisdom]

Up to page 27.

Liking Huntress more after reading more of her.

Liked Shinobi's attempt to act as a peacemaker between BBT and Mala in 583. This sort of thing shows town most of the time.

Changed my mind about the Zebulin slot. Liking davesaz a lot.

Not quite sure about uctriton, but he slighly leans towards town.

hephaestus is most likely scum.

My other reads remain the same.

goodmorning/Peabody/hephaestus is my first guess at a scumteam.

--

Pausing for a while as I have to go, will continue reading soon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Obviously, I was concerned that NPAU might have been mason. At least one of you figured out what I was trying to say -- don't remember who it was though. So I pulled back and tried to find the association. If I had been able to find one, I would have been convinced, and went on to attack the person attacking the associate. But in all the combinations of interactions with NPAU I couldn't find a plausible attacker and defender.

So the upshot is, if you have reservations about a lynch say nothing? Or stay off, vote a meaningless target, and let it go no-lynch?

I think that from {BBT, Mala, Josh} we'll find our scum. Don't know which 2. Uctritron comes in a distant 4th.

What I don't get is why nobody has bothered to look at who Scripten would be dangerous to. Or if you're looking, nobody is saying anything about it.

VOTE: Josh

I'm going to assume that this is your response to my case.

VOTE: NPAU

I already said I wasn't sure, and the posts since I revoted have made me less sure. But hopping to GM feels like hopping to town. I think I'll watch the thread and clock.

Those quotes don't look like your town-read was based on him being a Mason. You became less sure of him after his recent posting, if you thought there was the slightest chance he was Mason, I am sure (as town) you would have gotten off that wagon. You're also assuming his associate would have been under attack from somebody, that first paragraph is very strangely worded.

Him being a 'Mason' had nothing to do with you read and I go back to you faking a conscious and trying to look like concerned town.

I like how you and Josh are using other people's cases to soft-defend each other. I feel pretty confident one of you is scum now, the fact you've decided to vote Josh is extremely opportunistic given you have shown no inclination of a Josh scum-read this entire game. Trying to start a counter-wagon?

You did nothing to stop a wagon on someone you thought could have been Mason at one point. You became less sure of his lynch as his wagon grew, yet, you did

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT IT

. Instead, you decided to 'Watch the clock and thread', which does not come from a town perspective.

Can you explain your scum-reads on Mala, Josh and myself, because they have all literally come from nowhere. You attempted to sheep me late D1 on Mala, Mala provided a reads-list and content, and then would I be incorrect as to say you were town-reading her? What's changed?

Can we start voting Dave please.

[hephaestus]

After

Hmmmmmm Sonic might be Scum.

Vote:Goodmorning

Why?

Any assertion of a GoodMorning/NPAU scum team might as well be a scum claim. Or you need to come up with a sure fire explanation of bussing which even with all of the WIFOM at my disposal, I can't do.

I'm not sure I'm following. Why is it absolutely 100% impossible for that specific vote to be a bus?

Personally I didn't think a gm/npau scumteam was likely because of their wagons though so I'm not sure where you think I made this case

I wanted to lynch gm yesterday

[hephaestus]

Toffee, what is your read on Mala at this point? Actually, could I ask you for a full read list like 600? Reasoning not necessary, just to get an idea of where exactly everyone stands with you right now

[Josh_B]

Of course you can't. You didn't even try. You made one post at the last second because you were commenting on how townie I looked and

1. voted yourself for whatever reason.

Why is it that you insist on wasting time while a wagon is building up on your townread?

2. And it's not even like I blame you for the lynch.

I'm accusing you of trying to avoid responsibility of lynching town

3. while being useless in other areas.

I refuse to believe that you had a legitimate townread on NPAU and that you basically let him get run up until the last 24 hours,

4. when you're not going to convince shit

.

1. indicates you obviously haven't read the game.

2. So we're good then?

3. this from a guy who lurked most of D1.

4. I bet if I had a scum team, they wouldn't have left me out to dry like that.

I seriously tried to get mala to vote Hepheastus. Seriously. She wouldn't go for it.
It was obvious that Scripten was going to vote for NPAU.
Heck I think like three people claimed intent to hammer. (maybe 2)

-I feel like you are trying to say that I did something scummy, but you haven't figured out what you are trying to say that I did, or how you plan to spin it as scummy.

[goodmorning]

On a more serious note, what would Josh have gained from trying to divert a wagon at deadline? (@Shinobi)

He doesn't have to be a part of a bad wagon.

Hence nobody can call him out for lynching town.

I meant that you said "if you really thought he was Town then why didn't you try to make his wagon go away?"
I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

Sorry you're Scum and I have to get you lynched Wisdom

Interesting, I'd expect you to try and read me to confirm your read since you know me and I recall you saying you can read me pretty well.

You don't seem interested in that.

Look, Sonic was Scum. I'm pretty sure of that. I can read you once you post a little more but I think I know what it's going to be.

You did nothing to stop a wagon on someone you thought could have been Mason at one point. You became less sure of his lynch as his wagon grew, yet, you did

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT IT

. Instead, you decided to 'Watch the clock and thread', which does not come from a town perspective.

Same question I asked Shinobi, now to you:
I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Toffee, what is your read on Mala at this point? Actually, could I ask you for a full read list like 600? Reasoning not necessary, just to get an idea of where exactly everyone stands with you right now

Reads;

Town

Huntress
---------
Mala
Josh
---------
Heph
MS
Shinobi
Uct
---------
GM
Pea
---------
Dave

Scum

The reads between Heph and Uct are reads I need to have another look at and reads that could go either way right now. Heph and MS are leaning towards town to me, Uct and Shinobi are leaning towards scum (though, I doubt both are scum, it's one or the other)

I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

He wasn't trying to make the wagon go away.

Did you read my case?

[davesaz]

What scum in their right mind would leave a NPAU wagon and then go back on, especially posting what I did? Did you read my explanation at all? There is plenty of town reasoning to do what I did, which is not a big surprise given I'm town. Town don't want to lynch masons, where scum would like nothing better. If I were scum and thought NPAU a mason, I'd try even harder to get him lynched. I can't imagine anyone playing badly enoiugh as scum to leave and go back. It's way too risky to try a gambit like that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What scum in their right mind would leave a NPAU wagon and then go back on, especially posting what I did? Did you read my explanation at all? There is plenty of town reasoning to do what I did, which is not a big surprise given I'm town. Town don't want to lynch masons, where scum would like nothing better. If I were scum and thought NPAU a mason, I'd try even harder to get him lynched. I can't imagine anyone playing badly enoiugh as scum to leave and go back. It's way too risky to try a gambit like that.

You're right, it's

way

too risky. I mean look at all the attention you have got because of it...oh wait, no, that doesn't actually seem to be what's happened.

I said you were trying to fake town conscious. I also said if you had the slightest inkling that NPAU was Mason, you would have got off that wagon altogether.

[Wisdom]

Look, Sonic was Scum. I'm pretty sure of that. I can read you once you post a little more but I think I know what it's going to be.

Well, you're wrong. So the only thing setting up a tunnel on me does is making me think I've been right in scumreading you.

[goodmorning]

I'm asking: what would he have gained, as each alignment, from trying to make the npiau wagon go away at that point in time?

He wasn't trying to make the wagon go away.

Did you read my case?

Let me rephrase the question:
If he had tried to make the wagon go away, what would he have gained, as each alignment?

Look, Sonic was Scum. I'm pretty sure of that. I can read you once you post a little more but I think I know what it's going to be.

Well, you're wrong. So the only thing setting up a tunnel on me does is making me think I've been right in scumreading you.

If you think I'm setting up a tunnel on you you might want to go check the D1 VCs.

[Wisdom]

I don't think the VCs explain why you are not interested in reading me. No matter how sure you might be about MS, I am not MS. And you are able to read me, according to you. So why declare I'm scum instead of trying to do that?

[Wisdom]

Up to the end of D1.

I've been feeling somewhat better about both goodmorning and hephaestus. goodmorning had some posts that reminded me of town-her, while hephaestus's tone in his posts near the end of the day sounded more like town who's been apathetic than lurking scum.

Peabody's behavior around the deadline, on the other hand, makes me more sure he's scum. Robotically talking about what a no-lynch does, calling both wagons town when it was inevitable one of them is getting lynched, setting up future targets to push.

I felt uctriton vs Shinobi came somewhat out of nowhere. Anyhow, I thought Shinobi is definitely town from it, while uctriton felt more like he was interested in making Shinobi look bad than figuring him out. I haven't liked any of uctriton's posts since that point.

Josh has lost some of the towncred he had in my eyes. Early game he felt like a town leader, correcting incorrect reads that seemed out of place or town on town, trying to have the town work together. Or that's how I saw it anyway. But as time passed I felt he completely stopped doing any of that and only came back sometimes to argue with Mala about petty things. I'm not as sure about him being town as I was earlier.

I feel even better about BBT after seeing his attempts to get the lynches he'd like as deadline approaches. He reminds me a lot of myself.

Mala trying to protect goodmorning because she thinks she got a read on her looks like town-Mala.

dave and Huntress still look town enough.

[goodmorning]

You, for the purposes of this game, are Sonic. You replaced into his slot. The slot's role has not changed. I said I'd be happy to read you. I said I wouldn't find a Scum result unexpected.

That's it.

[Wisdom]

I said I wouldn't find a Scum result unexpected.

No, you said I'm scum and I'm getting lynched. That doesn't sound like you'd be happy to read me. That sounds like you've pre-determined what I am and don't care to explore it further.

[Wisdom]

Didn't the fast wagon clear GM?

I saw this a lot of times, and it really has to stop.

A fast wagon does not "clear" anyone. The speed of a wagon is not alignment indicative. The only way this can be argued is if most of the people joining said wagon give weak reasons and it looks like the wagon is scum-driven. But solely the speed, means zero. There have been lots of cases where town quickly piled up votes on scum and I've even seen scum getting quicklynched.

So really, stop using that argument. goodmorning does in fact look more town in later D1, but due to her posts. The wagon has nothing to do with it.

[Wisdom]

nopointinactingup: Scripten, Metal Sonic, Huntress, Malakittens, davesaz, Peabody, ucitron00

Here's how I'm reading the wagon;

Conf. Town, leaning town, leaning town, leaning town, scum, town, null.

Why town on Peabody?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My read on Pea has changed. You will see it in my latest reads-list.

[Peabody]

Pea, thoughts on my case on Dave?

I remember liking Dave's posts in general, but after skimming over his iso, I can see why you have the questions you have toward him. I'd be interested in looking at Dave a little more in depth. I'm very interested in why Dave placed his vote back on NPAU after declaring the wagon a possible mistake.

What's your read on GM as of right now?

Still likely town. I'm just not a fan of her early game emotional defensiveness. It doesn't ring right to me, but the way that wagon formed on her and then dissipated so quickly means that something fishy was going on with it. Whether it was scum hopping on and off, or scum hopping on while town abandoned ship. A GM flip will help any analysis of this wagon, but I think GM is town. No, I'm not saying to lynch her before anyone asks me that. xD

I think that from {BBT, Mala, Josh} we'll find our scum. Don't know which 2. Uctritron comes in a distant 4th.

Why do you choose Josh over BBT and Mala?

Wisdom, I'm scum reading your slot because Metal Sonic said that both GM and NPAU were scum, dispite obvious in game conflicts between the two parties.

I know you've said this a billion times in thread, but I still don't get the logic behind it. Can you please explain your thought progression from MS thinks GM and NPAU were scum together to MS is scum? Maybe I'm not reading this well enough?

BBT, what changed your read on me from town to scum in two pages?

I also said if you had the slightest inkling that NPAU was Mason, you would have got off that wagon altogether.

He did hop off the wagon... My question is why he hopped back on it.

Peabody's behavior around the deadline, on the other hand, makes me more sure he's scum. Robotically talking about what a no-lynch does, calling both wagons town when it was inevitable one of them is getting lynched, setting up future targets to push.

I can't say much to this except I was frustrated the person I wanted to be lynched didn't even have a wagon on him. There was a real threat that there was going to be a no-lynch, and after playing a horribly frustrating game not long ago, I'm a little more paranoid about this happening. I felt uneasy about BBT's request to vote GM without question, so I didn't. Yes, I was being rebellious. NPAU was also pinging me as town. So what do I do when there is 12 hours left to lynch and no one is budging? The best I could do at that time with the amount of analysis I've done so far was to just hammer one of them so we don't reach a no lynch.

[Peabody]

How'd your read change in two pages after I haven't posted, BBT?

[Peabody]

nopointinactingup: Scripten, Metal Sonic, Huntress, Malakittens, davesaz, Peabody, ucitron00

Here's how I'm reading the wagon;

Conf. Town, leaning town, leaning town, leaning town, scum, town, null.

Why town on Peabody?

Did you finish reading yet?

[Peabody]

The reason I ask has nothing to do with post 1093, sorry for quoting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, what changed your read on me from town to scum in two pages?

You didn't look as town to me on a second read of D1. I haven't gone into a whole lot of detail on it yet, but I will do when I feel it is relevant.

He did hop off the wagon... My question is why he hopped back on it.

This is what I meant when I said

altogether

, he should

never

have got back on that wagon if he was town.

I can't say much to this except I was frustrated the person I wanted to be lynched didn't even have a wagon on him. There was a real threat that there was going to be a no-lynch, and after playing a horribly frustrating game not long ago, I'm a little more paranoid about this happening. I felt uneasy about BBT's request to vote GM without question, so I didn't. Yes, I was being rebellious. NPAU was also pinging me as town. So what do I do when there is 12 hours left to lynch and no one is budging? The best I could do at that time with the amount of analysis I've done so far was to just hammer one of them so we don't reach a no lynch.

This is interesting.

Look back at D1 and look how many people were unsure of the NPAU and GM wagons. If anybody had any other reads, they

could

should have tried to push someone they were scum-reading. This is what Josh did, this is why Josh is probably town.

Dave, on the other hand, didn't. This is why Dave is prob scum.

Pea, didn't. This is why my read on Pea has changed significantly.