Open 573: C9++

[Heartless]

Oh wow, my editing of that last post is dreadful. Apologies.

One thing I'd like to do is completely strip meta out of the case. I can tell there's history and all between: you, nacho, Anti, and sthar. Anti told me some stuff about it, but I wasn't really paying attention. I don't think it's that important though, because I think any case should be able to stand on its own without meta (Anti told me that during Chosen). From what I'm reading in your ISO, I'm getting that you think sthar isn't posting enough or isn't enough of a presence in this game. I don't know how you're getting that from sthar's activity itself, though. I see things I like in his recent posting, especially the efforts to examine what went wrong yesterday that landed us in a situation where we couldn't get a lynch. Also, I'm wondering where you, Nero Cain, and Anti are getting this bus theory. If massive really is scum, I think that actually lessens the chances of sthar being scum pretty substantially. With where he left his read yesterday, sthar could have easily pursued alternative wagons to start Day 2, but he didn't.

-TTH

[Heartless]

All I see are words and not really a legit response. So lets try again, Massive didn't die yesterday, how does that mean he "has" to die today.

If massive is town, we handed the scum a mislynch yesterday and THEY DIDN"T TAKE IT. I'm 100% sure of 2/5 of the wagon, and like 80% sure of another 2/5. So the explanation isn't that all the scum were already on the wagon. Which means there's a good chance that Massive is scum, I was the counterwagon, and the scum chose to no lynch instead of bussing.

It's not 100% but it's strong enough to warrant action.

Why do you think there are 4 scum in the game?

I think sthar is saying he's 100% on 2/5 of the wagon and 80% sure on another 2/5 of the wagon being

town

. I'm assuming his point is that the wagon yesterday was mostly town, thus affording scum an opportunity for an easy, low accountability Day 1 lynch. We ended up with no lynch, so that implies there are people with incentive to not vote massive and instead passively let a no lynch occur. This implies that massive is scum.

Clear as mud?

I see that you want someone to talk to, MonkeyMan. I'll take you up on that. What's your opinion on this recent argument between sthar and mollie?

-TTH

[MonkeyMan]

Well I don't like people answering for other people but I will let that go.

I think NachoMollie is town and I have my doubts about sthar but I wouldn't put sthar in scum territory just yet. I feel like Mollie is actually trying to do stuff and sthar is just not replying how Mollie wants. Mollie expects something and gets something else but it isn't actually a scum tell.

[sthar8]

I think sthar is saying he's 100% on 2/5 of the wagon and 80% sure on another 2/5 of the wagon being town. I'm assuming his point is that the wagon yesterday was mostly town, thus affording scum an opportunity for an easy, low accountability Day 1 lynch. We ended up with no lynch, so that implies there are people with incentive to not vote massive and instead passively let a no lynch occur. This implies that massive is scum.

Oh my god she speaks the same language as me.

I'm in a mood, so I'm not doing any of this tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

[Jingle]

Replacing Grayfoxxxx. (If anyone wants to ask their friends to replace in they are welcome to, just CC me in the message. Also don't give away game information. Otherwise, I'll do the legwork on getting the replacement tomorrow.)

[Aneninen]

It's my fault that I've left out an important thing: it's aligment-indicative for me because I think (1) they are town and (2) they kept trying to maintain the conversation with you. It's not a major tell but it's still a tell. Why do you think they can't read you anyway?

Did they? It didn't feel like they were "conversing" with me.

It felt like they refused to understand my points and just told me I was wrong.

My positive-EV action should have been to ignore them, but we are where we are.

Eg. 1012 was about maintaining a conversation, in my opinion. (Especially since you was the one who wanted TTH to post.) As I said before, 1166 is a question which needs answering. That answer hasn't arrived yet. Why?
Yes, they are having talks with many players at the same time but that's =/= they can't read you. Where did the underlined part happen?

Trying to get a free card?

I don't understand this phraseology. Can you explain? What is a "free card" and how is it scummy?

You claimed so as to avoid getting lynched Today. Originally, that's what I meant by "getting a free card".
On a second thought, it may be much useful later because you not only claimed in a strange moment (being not even close to L–1) but also you claimed VT. If you manage to avoid the lynch, you'll be able to use your claim as an explanation for not getting Nightkilled. Something like "yes, everyone knows that I'm VT but, it's obvious that the scums won't kill me because they're hunting PRs". Nero explained in 1167 why your claim wasn't useful for town. Right now I've explained why it's useful for scum!

[Aneninen]

If massive is town, we handed the scum a mislynch yesterday and THEY DIDN"T TAKE IT. I'm 100% sure of 2/5 of the wagon, and like 80% sure of another 2/5. So the explanation isn't that all the scum were already on the wagon. Which means there's a good chance that Massive is scum, I was the counterwagon, and the scum chose to no lynch instead of bussing.
It's not 100% but it's strong enough to warrant action.

And THIS post is very interesting.
I used it as a starting point to think a lot about the possible explanations. I hope I'll have some time to post about it this evening, because I have to go to work now. I must admit that I wanted to write a long post this morning, but yet again, I chose the swimming pool instead of Mafiascum. ^_^

[massive]

Eg. 1012 was about maintaining a conversation, in my opinion. (Especially since you was the one who wanted TTH to post.) As I said before, 1166 is a question which needs answering. That answer hasn't arrived yet. Why?
Yes, they are having talks with many players at the same time but that's =/= they can't read you. Where did the underlined part happen?

It doesn't help you to push for this answer.

You claimed so as to avoid getting lynched Today. Originally, that's what I meant by "getting a free card".

Doesn't EVERY player who claims do so in the hopes of avoiding a lynch? How is this alignment indicative?

On a second thought, it may be much useful later because you not only claimed in a strange moment (being not even close to L–1) but also you claimed VT. If you manage to avoid the lynch, you'll be able to use your claim as an explanation for not getting Nightkilled. Something like "yes, everyone knows that I'm VT but, it's obvious that the scums won't kill me because they're hunting PRs". Nero explained in 1167 why your claim wasn't useful for town. Right now I've explained why it's useful for scum!

How is this different than claiming at L-1? How is it explicitly scummy for me to have claimed VT at L-2 rather than at L-1?

[Nero Cain]

How is this different than claiming at L-1? How is it explicitly scummy for me to have claimed VT at L-2 rather than at L-1?

You claimed at l-5. Like me and Anti were the first two to vote him and he claimed right after my post. Not sure why he's trying to distort facts here though.

but also you claimed VT.

tbf he actully claimed vanilla wich I think is a scum goon claiming truthfully.

[massive]

All right. Claim was with 2 votes, L-4 technically, with two more likely coming since they had voted me at deadline. Would you like to answer the question rather than play semantics? How is claiming at L-4 different than claiming at L-1? How is claiming at L-2 different than claiming at L-1? How do I as scum benefit in either case over waiting until L-1?

Evidently we are just going to tunnel the crap out of each other to the detriment of doing anything else, so let's do it.

[Jingle]

Brian Skies replaces Grayfoxxxx. WELCOME HIM!

[Nero Cain]

Its 7 to lynch, not six....

but still, there was like no indication that you were 100% going to be the days lynch so I felt like you claimed for no legit reason.

[Aneninen]

Hi, Brain Skies!

I'll post tomorrow. Including the thing I mentioned.

[50 Shades of Purple]

Because frankly it's embarrassing, town or scum.

oh well then fuck you star, there is an easy solution to this it called, "don't sign up for games that I am in if you think I am that shitty of a player".

I would like to think that too, but it's clearly not true.

you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. on 1 hand you are saying "you would like to think that too" but otoh, calling me scum for not doing do so. I think you know that I am toen and this looks like a scftwr case.

By the way, OC was Organic Chemistry, where you were scum and did the same skimming bullshit. We were scum together briefly in Street Racers, where you did the same skimming bullshit. And you beat me as scum in Bowser 3, where you...

You've seen me as scum in Faith, Antihero, and Street Racers. And you want me to believe that you're this bad at reading me? No.

pretty sure I have not been skimming! so that argument is full of bullshit right there.

TSO was misapplying meta because he thought I was lurking rather than just V/LA. Then TSO was paranoid because he thought I might be buddying him. Then TSO put aside his paranoia to help me try for a lynch at day's end. Then TSO died and flipped town, which makes this point and the one you tried in 1127 patent nonsense.

Please at least pretend you're reading the game.

YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND STAR, DON'T PRETEND LIKE YOU HAVEN'T. STAHP TRYING TO DODGE SHIT AND MAN UP

See, this idiom cannot be effectively applied like that. Of course I couldn't respond

in the middle of your post

, implying anything else is pretty silly. And when I have a response, like I do now, this shit gets thrown back in your face.

EXCEPT THAT YOU ARE TAKING SOMETHING THAT I SAID IN A POAST AND TRYING TO INSIST THAT WHAT I SAID WAS WRONG COS YOU THINK THAT SOMEHOW.....I EXPECTED YOU TO RESPOND IN THE MIDDLE OF MY POST?

ARE YOU BEING FOR REALZ?

GTFO

Yup. Your last post before the deadline was more than 24 hours beforehand. And all it was doing was explaining why you weren't voting for MTD. You and nacho understand why no lynching is incredibly anti-town, but you made no attempt to avert it.

I misjudged the end of the day mostly cos I got distracted by other things offsite. *shrugs*

Don't use that word if you aren't going to use it properly. Also that's a horse laugh, and ceding the point.

pretty sure I used it correctly!

How can you possibly believe I'm turbobussing with plenty of viable wagons? The cognitive dissonance here is mind-blowing.

@Antihero- You hydra'd with her. Tell me this is town mollie with a straight face.

that you are pushing so hard for massive is like number 2 of the reasons as to why I have been waiting for nacho. cos I am pretty sure that you are scum. massive is NOT giving me the townflails feeling but there are some things that he has said that gives me pause. it kind of looks like he gave a reach out to me when he said, "it makes me sad that current site meta says that politeness shld be treated as a scumtell" which is ambiguous but I dunno. mebbe I have a soft spot for massive when I really shouldn't have.

anyhoo I am going to bloc vote with nero and heartless cos they are my strongest townreads and massive objectively looks scummy but...gut says he is town but nacho does not think so.

you act like hardbussing is not a thing, when you and I both know it is it is how scum win scummies is weird. I feel like you are sucking up to players you think you can manipulate.

truth: you have been around. your whole bitching about a nolynch is blatant reverse cheerleading especially when I think you could have shifted things around points to scum motivation more than a town 1 cos you are attempting to bank off of it and keystoning your whole fake outrage around it. cos it looks fake especially when you could have changed it.

you are scum starella and as thingmaker I hereby call you starella from this point onwards.

[Nero Cain]

anyhoo I am going to bloc vote with nero and heartles

*clears throat*

[50 Shades of Purple]

Hello mollie. I know I've been falling down on this game and keeping in touch with you, but it seems that sthar is a hot topic and I'd

really

like to talk about it.

One thing I'd like to do is completely strip meta out of the case. I can tell there's history and all between: you, nacho, Anti, and sthar. Anti told me some stuff about it, but I wasn't really paying attention. I don't think it's really that important though, because I think since any case should be able to stand on its own without meta (Anti told me that during Chosen). From what I'm reading in your ISO, I'm getting that you think sthar isn't posting enough or isn't enough of a presence in this game. I don't know how you're getting that from sthar's activity itself, though. I see things I like in his recent posting, especially the efforts to examine what went wrong yesterday that landed us in a situation where we couldn't get a lynch. Also, I'm wondering where you, Nero Cain, and Anti are getting this bus theory. If massive really is scum, I think that actually lessens the chances of sthar being scum pretty substantially. With where he left his read yesterday, sthar could have easily pursued alternative wagons to start Day 2, but he didn't.

starella is bitching about how there was a nolynch while simultaneously not taking responsibility for his own culpability yet damning other players he perceives to be doing the same thing.

I *get* that hypocrisy is not a scumtell but reverse cheerleading certainly is and that is what he is doing.

have you never seen scum hardbus before?

twice

I have seen scum nk their own in order to gain credibility with town by claiming a vig. there is a saying, "eveytime some1 says would never do that! some1 wins a scummy" and I have found it to be true.

I don't like how you are saying that my case rests entirely on starella not posting enough cos that isn't the case at all. he has been around. CONTEXT IS KEY

and no I am not going to stop meta-ing. nor am I going to ignore info in the game thread in order to update my reads. cos I pay attention to things like that.

starella had this whole breakdown as scum in faith, when town!guyett hard pushed him. I feel like his case against us is pretty bad and OMGUSY and it feels very familiar.

starella is grooming you btw.

[Brian Skies]

This is the worst welcoming party ever.

I dunno if I'm voting anybody.

UNVOTE: Whoever

Be back when I'm caught up.

[50 Shades of Purple]

anyhoo I am going to bloc vote with nero and heartles

*clears throat*

FINE. I AM DONE WITH TEASING OUT THE DAY COS I DON"T REALLY GET MUCH MORE OUT OF IT EXCEPT I JUST GET MORE CONFUSED.

nacho is down with this.

VOTE: massive

eta: hi brian!

[Heartless]

that you are pushing so hard for massive is like number 2 of the reasons as to why I have been waiting for nacho. cos I am pretty sure that you are scum. massive is NOT giving me the townflails feeling but there are some things that he has said that gives me pause. it kind of looks like he gave a reach out to me when he said, "it makes me sad that current site meta says that politeness shld be treated as a scumtell" which is ambiguous but I dunno. mebbe I have a soft spot for massive when I really shouldn't have.

If you have misgivings about a massive wagon, I'd really like to hear them. I also kind of have a gut feeling that we're falling into this group think answer. Meanwhile, I'll revisit the "no lynch" issue:

I think sthar is saying he's 100% on 2/5 of the wagon and 80% sure on another 2/5 of the wagon being town. I'm assuming his point is that the wagon yesterday was mostly town, thus affording scum an opportunity for an easy, low accountability Day 1 lynch. We ended up with no lynch, so that implies there are people with incentive to not vote massive and instead passively let a no lynch occur. This implies that massive is scum.

Oh my god she speaks the same language as me.

I'm in a mood, so I'm not doing any of this tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

I thought about it and

I think your theory is flawed, sthar

.

I checked the timestamps again on all the posts yesterday. The third vote on the massive wagon was yours and it was placed about 2 hours before deadline. Before then, Nero Cain, massive, and wgeurts "wagons" all stood at 2 votes. Massive didn't become the frontrunner until it was too late to do anything about it anyway. Anti's "no one was on at the right time" theory suddenly makes sense, because everyone who

was

evidently on at the time piled onto the massive wagon and there was such a narrow window of time between your vote and the end of the day. Unless you somehow

knew

other players were on in that 2 hour window but declined to post, I don't know how the theory of "scum let a mislynch get away" stands up. At that point we devolve into hearsay and unhelpful speculation on non-game factors.

Now, where I think your argument has some merit is that

I do believe that scum contributed to the gridlock

leading up to the failure to get consensus. Following this train of thought leads me to MTD and davesaz, but I'll have to think on that more.

-TTH

[Death Stare]

Will look at massive cases.

-Ank

[50 Shades of Purple]

VOTE: Sthar,
Now this post is going to sound terrible, as it is.
This vote is a counter vote, I'm going to claim Vanilla Townie as I am one. Now I know I could just be a scum saying this as to not get caught off by other PR's. I'm probaly going to die after this anyway so I've made my claim and my vote is litteraly just that, a vote stopping a VT from dying and having a small chance at killing a scum.

This vote was absolutely horrible and I very truly and deeply hope that I wasn't the only one who saw it.

[50 Shades of Purple]

VOTE: massive

will also accept dave and 50 shades votes

all other votes are inferior and will be made fun of by me

Mmmmmmmmmm

[50 Shades of Purple]

The massive vote is okay.
The other two votes are not.

[50 Shades of Purple]

VOTE: massive

will also accept dave and 50 shades votes

all other votes are inferior and will be made fun of by me

Let's get something straight right away. Several RL days have passed, and therefore it's not acceptable to just vote without saying why.

Tough rhetoric, dave. There's not much in the way of actions this game to back it up, though. You really don't have much room to give Anti grief about anything.

The dave and 50 Shades reads are mine. I plan on talking Antihero into voting you, by the way, because I think you're scum.
The tail end of yesterday for you was spent voting MonkeyMan, who I think is probably town. Ostensibly, your reason for voting him was "pressure," but there's a lack of follow-through on this promise. In subsequent posts, you don't work to advance the wagon or interact with MonkeyMan himself in any meaningful way. You seemed to be perfectly content letting your vote fester on a failed wagon that never exceeded two votes, but that never seemed to bother you. Reads on people outside of MonkeyMan are left mostly undeveloped and there's a distinct lack of transparency in your overall view of the game. I also wasn't a fan of the earlier Nero Cain push (Nero Cain is a townread).

-TTH

I don't remember the monkeyman pressure, do you mind linking me?

[Jingle]

Bump?