NY 177: Simple Complexity (GAME OVER: Scum Wins!)

[Psyche]

yeah

[PeregrineV]

yeah

You voted him and said "not a town mindset".

Sounds like you think he is scum.

[PeregrineV]

OK, I've been reviewing a lot of the thread trying to find answers for some of my questions. When I first replaced in, I commented on the mason thing. I went back and read Marquis' ISO because I wanted to see where/why he claimed. That claim came in post 3155. The interesting thing to me is Marquis didn't have any votes on him. Psyche had two votes on him at the time which was no where near enough votes for a lynch IMO. Why would Marquis claim for Psyche and himself that early? And why does Psyche state that he will let Marquis handle all the "dialog concerning masonry"? 3448

One other thing I noticed while reviewing is in post 3179 Alina/House mentioned that Marquis was sheriff cleared. The only cop I know of in the game was Titus. I've gone through her ISO twice now and don't see anything that clears Marquis.

Alina/House corrected themselves in post 3180.

[Skybird]

PV, you keep bringing up your neighborhood analysis. If we go with your assumption of one scum in each hood, then the lynch pool should be you, Marquis, and Shaddowez with Shaddow being the obvious lynch. If you feel you are right about this, why is your vote on house instead of Shaddowez?

Do not like this post. At all. It latches onto the assumption of 1 scum in each hood, which I feel is a very, very dangerous assumption to make. It sounds like exactly what the scum would want us to think.

I feel it is just as likely as anything for there to be all-town neighborhoods as anything.

This discussion has stagnated. I'm ready to move on. Does anyone have a substantial case to make that hasn't been brought up since I joined? I'm especially looking for analyses of Shaddowez and Skybird. I have a hunch of at least one scum between them, but not sure who. Links to previous cases are fine.

The thing is I don't agree with 1 scum in each hood. But that seems to be the theory that PV is pushing. And if that is what he feels is correct, why isn't he voting for shaddow?

[PeregrineV]

More horrible speculation.

Looked over early tree/psyche stuff. Tree does declaratives that psyche is town, psyche said tree is town, but usually with qualifiers ("because _______"). If they are scum together, then it was planned pre-game, because it can be seen seeded throughout early posts.

However, if this is somehow true, then that would make the scum in our hood Titus. Since I think Titus is fully capable of fakeclaiming BP macho cop as scum and running with it as far and fast as possible, then Marquis as mason would be doubly vexing. To this end, Titus shoudl be lynched in the next few days if she is still alive, if for no reason but to confirm her innocents.

Outside possibility of Marquis and Titus both town, but then we would be an all-town neighborhood. And then, if one, why not two?

Uggh.

Vote: Shadow

[PeregrineV]

PV, you keep bringing up your neighborhood analysis. If we go with your assumption of one scum in each hood, then the lynch pool should be you, Marquis, and Shaddowez with Shaddow being the obvious lynch. If you feel you are right about this, why is your vote on house instead of Shaddowez?

Do not like this post. At all. It latches onto the assumption of 1 scum in each hood, which I feel is a very, very dangerous assumption to make. It sounds like exactly what the scum would want us to think.

I feel it is just as likely as anything for there to be all-town neighborhoods as anything.

This discussion has stagnated. I'm ready to move on. Does anyone have a substantial case to make that hasn't been brought up since I joined? I'm especially looking for analyses of Shaddowez and Skybird. I have a hunch of at least one scum between them, but not sure who. Links to previous cases are fine.

The thing is I don't agree with 1 scum in each hood. But that seems to be the theory that PV is pushing. And if that is what he feels is correct, why isn't he voting for shaddow?

It's pretty much stated he's not getting lynched. And I pretty much want it to be me. I reached my maximum usefulness and now I'm just quoting myself because scum won't listen and town ain't listening.

I'd mostly prefer House to be lynched at this point. And then I'd like the SK to clear up the "Masons", then town can take the loss, or they can get lucky and maybe win.

[Psyche]

yeah

You voted him and said "not a town mindset".

Sounds like you think he is scum.

it was one of those noncommital page 4 votes you read about in the news

[PeregrineV]

Vote: House

[Psyche]

replacing out

i gotta learn to do this sooner
like infinitely sooner

[PeregrineV]

replacing out

i gotta learn to do this sooner
like infinitely sooner

[Pine]

Hmm. The all-Town wagons are far more concerning than all-Town Neighborhoods. The former doesn't really happen, the latter can be a design quirk.

I'm going to take a big deep breath and dive into the Psyche/Marquis ISOs, see if they ever listed each other as scum. Masons might not buddy up to one another, but they'll never suspect one another. Scum that later fake claim Masons will probably have some bussing at some point in 184 pages

[PeregrineV]

Hmm. The all-Town wagons are far more concerning than all-Town Neighborhoods. The former doesn't really happen, the latter can be a design quirk.

I'm going to take a big deep breath and dive into the Psyche/Marquis ISOs, see if they ever listed each other as scum. Masons might not buddy up to one another, but they'll never suspect one another. Scum that later fake claim Masons will probably have some bussing at some point in 184 pages

The hints, etc. happen pretty early, imo. It would've had to have been planned way early, if not pre-game.

But, read it and let me know what you see otherwise.

[House]

If the "masons" haven't confirmed after ask this time had passed, why are they still alive?

There should have been a race between scum and town slaughtering them... scum for conf town and town for hesitance to confirm.

Yet here they are...

That's how it seems to me, anyway. Am I wrong?

[House]

ask = all

[Marquis]

On my phone but

"Scum do not have Daytalk. They may scheme in their QT thread at Night."

@mod, do you consider pregame to be "night 0"?

[Psyche]

we aren't masons
i went with it to make it easier to avoid getting mislynched and because marquis is a clear townread

[PeregrineV]

If the "masons" haven't confirmed after ask this time had passed, why are they still alive?

There should have been a race between scum and town slaughtering them... scum for conf town and town for hesitance to confirm.

Yet here they are...

That's how it seems to me, anyway. Am I wrong?

They are useless and worthless. They have more value to scum alive than dead, if they are real.

Go ISO Psyche/tree/Marquis together and give your opinions for/against their existence.

pedit: Or not.

[reinoe]

T
Flips table and walks out of the room

[reinoe]

Ok I'm back. I've taken some Advil after hanging my head against the wall and I've got some spackle and white paint to deal with what I did to my wall. Serial killer can sort the marquis+psyche situation. Otherwise I'm willing to ride their conf-town status to endgame. This game is an M. Night Shyamalan role play session. I just wish this was advertised as a Theme game when I signed up.

[gameplay506]

You are not masons? Lool

[PeregrineV]

Otherwise I'm willing to ride their conf-town status to endgame.

Ummmm, they are

not

masons......

[House]

Otherwise I'm willing to ride their conf-town status to endgame.

Ummmm, they are

not

masons......

I was wondering what I missed when I read that.

[Pine]

Preedit: NEVER FUCKING MIND

But I hate to lose all that work to just press delete, so whatever

As much as disproving the Mason claim would have made this easy mode, the evidence corroborates it. An exhaustive search of the records of tree, Psyche, and Marquis shows an unswerving confidence from both slots as to the Towniness of the other, right from the start. I've selected some representative quotes from each player:

Spoiler: Tree/Marquis

I'm not sure why people are saying Psyche and reinoe are behaving the same, or even similar at all.

Sure, Psyche's posts are short. But there's a clear sense of alignment (town) and effort in them. On the other hand, it feels like reinoe is purposely trying to obfuscate his motivations and everything, trolling for the sake of trolling rather than actually just playing the game lightheartedly like Psyche is.

tree you are up to be lynched
be careful what you call shit

By the way, can you give me your current thoughts on Aero+wagon? Believe it or not, I hold your reads in a somewhat high regard.

you really shouldn't lynch me or psyche

there are very good reasons to lynch texcat

tree doesn't exist

aero isn't getting lynched today

psyche is town

psyche and i are masons can we please lynch pv

Debut of Mason claim. Psyche doesn't refute, so after this point a detailed analysis is pretty academic, as it's either true or a committed fakeclaim, but I'll keep going.

Spoiler: Psyche

I think Tree is town - a VI. There is no conniving in his posts. A lot of players, present company included, play around too much at gamestart.
I don't quite understand why it's

this

show of excess that generates a wagon rather than my own or others, except that Majiffy has decided so and there are enough weaker players around to go with it.

I can't believe that the top wagon is tree.

tree you are up to be lynched
be careful what you call shit

Tree was making enemies here, Psyche is trying to pull him back from the edge. Shows concern for and confidence in Tree

marquis and i are a two-for-one

As you can see, the evidence of Marquis and Psyche being Masons amounts to an embarrassment of riches. It's thorough and without stumble. At this point, I am nearly willing to put my stamp on them as Confirmed Town. The only way they're scum is if they planned, from the very beginning, to fakeclaim Masons. This is unlikely, as they didn't crumb the role in case one got NKed, Psyche didn't know tree was an alt at first, and Psyche was reluctant to come right out with it when Marquis blurted it out.

There is one piece of contradicting evidence I'd like to present, though:

scum don't have daytalk

this is part of the rules, but it reflects on masons too

i'm guessing the reason neighborhoods have daytalk is because they can potentially house all factions, since daytalk topics that are guaranteed to be same-faction can get really powerful really quickly

why don't we talk about this in our mason qt marquis

These quotes seem contradictory, and I don't know why.

If the "masons" haven't confirmed after ask this time had passed, why are they still alive?

There should have been a race between scum and town slaughtering them... scum for conf town and town for hesitance to confirm.

Yet here they are...

That's how it seems to me, anyway. Am I wrong?

They've both confirmed, multiple times. I quoted a few of them. It's sad that I know more about this thread than you, when I've been here for two days.[/spoiler]

[Pine]

That's an hour of my life I'm not getting back

[PeregrineV]

Me on me-

i just checked our qt and well lol

PV in QT: "We need to hunt for the scum in here and play this like a mini game of mafia"
me in QT: "Well in that case it's probably texcat. you know what, I'll go for his lynch so we can try and become a mason thread"
PV in QT: *immediate post after* "Hmmm wait, I wonder if Wake would have

2 neighborhoods and 2 scumteams? or 3 neighborhoods and 1 scumteam?

PV in thread when a member of the neighborhood is about to be lynched: "wait! no lynching texcat, I think he's town!"

*also apparently has marquis and titus as town*

me: ... ... ...

apart from the sudden 180 when lynching out of the neighborhood became an option, this:

line 3: this was posted on the 29th. pv seemed pretty damn certain there are 4 topics/hoods. when was the exact number of neighborhoods revealed in thread, if ever?

Let me fix that for you.

I think having 2 neighborhoods (4- ours, 5-the other one) made up of all town would be funny and cool, because paranoia and such.
I think the Normal Review Board would not allow that.

If there is one scumteam, there may be an all-town neighborhood, but I doubt it, because the Normal Review Board would probably not allow it.

Likely there would be one scum in each.

If there is 2 scumteams, there may be at least one scum in each, but I don't think 2 from each team in each hood. There may be an all-town hood, but I doubt it, because the Normal Review Board would probably not allow it.

Feel free to disagree, because I don't recall you doing so in the actual neighborhood.

And I also mentioned that day-1 only that scumhunting in the neighboorhood would be more effective, since we have daychat and scum does not. This also seemed to kill all discussion.
Weird, no?

so why do people think i am scum?

Because you are totally scummy. But, if you fake a PR claim real quick, we won't lynch you today.

Claim doc was we can put down Oka.

why

Marquis claimed mason with you. Reinoe believes it.

The game's 15:3:3 Fifteen Townies, three Red Scum, three Blue Scum.

Amazingly, the mod has informed us in the neighborhood that this is

NOT

the game setup, and that all given set-up information is in the OP, and yet you have continued to push this.

Any particular reason why?

Pere - Do you not believe the mason claim? I'm going to guess not since you have the largest wagon right now, and your vote is the sole vote on one of the possible masons. Could you please explain why?

Well, where to start....

Why claim it now, when there is not benefit to town?

Plus, Marquis is scum as all get-out.

Psyche has not confirmed it. The post you think about quoting Pysche where they did confirm it is about as dodgy as all get-out.

Let's see why.

Psyche scum- Marquis town-

Psyche could be wary of Marquis trying to trick him. If he says yes, does Marquis close the trap on him and get him lynched? But, Marquis hasn't been actually scumhunting, so what's Psyche afraid of? Don;t think this is the current siutaiton.

Psyche town- Marquis town

- Psyche could be wary of Marquis trying to trick him. But, it seems town Psyche would use this opportunity to determine if Marquis is scum trying to trick him, or town trying to trick scum. Pscyhe instead continues to demur to Marquis, while not interacting with him (or anyone else). Marquis in turn is either really sure on Psyche alignment (why, FGS?), or is trying to determine his alignment. Since I see no Marquis Psyche interaction, I have a hard time believing this scenario.

Psyche town- Marquis scum

- Marquis picked Pscyhe as a pliable human shield who would not counterclaim him because.....???? Psyche, unsure of Marquis alignment, would try to determine Marquis alignment through any sort of interaction, to either out the fakeclaim, or to find himself a strong townread (however incorrect it may be). However, Psyche is not doing that. And Marquis is making no pretense of interacting with Psyche.

Psyche scum- Marquis scum

- Marquis on a whim figured he'd fish the fakeclaim out there to see what sort of traction/reaction it would get. If it derailed the Psyche push (it did), then all the better. Psyche, not wanting to out 2 scummembers at once, does as much as possible to leave the confirmation open-ended and ambiguous. This gives some wriggle room for the other should one be lynched/stabbed. This requires Psyche soft-confirming it, and deferring it to Marquis, allowing plausible deniability (claiming one of the 2 scenarios above) should Marquis die. Marquis in turn is minimizing involving Psyche, and will claim reactiontest when Psyche flips scum. Based on both players current bahvoirs, I strongly suspect this one.

So, yeah, neighbor-masons?

From my Normal review thread a long time ago

I think it might not be the best idea to put the sk as neighbour. It has been meta (and no clue if that's still the case) to shoot your neighbours as mafia. Is okayish if it's town-mafia, but for the SK, who's job is hard enough anyway, it can just be way sucky. You might be directing scum onto him here.