Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:41 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 149, Newbie wrote:To further elaborate on my point, if you had just said that you don't like randomly voting, then fine. It's the fact that you replied to Wisdom asking why he keeps voting and unvoting. It seemed unnecessary. Haven't you played/lurked mafia games on here before and saw that people here usually do stuff like that right when the game begins?

I'm sorry but somebody needs to ask something however small to start discussion.
If everybody just voted nothing would ever be discussed. As said before, MY BLOODY VOTE ON WISDOM WASN'T BASED OFF ANY GOOD REASONING AND WAS TO START DISCUSSION. Rant over.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:41 am

Post by wgeurts »

@Mod
Ha I got your pagetop.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:46 am

Post by Newbie »

Okay. Well it seemed a bit odd to me, so that, coupled with some other things, is why I'm voting you. No hard feelings :)
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:47 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 152, Newbie wrote:Okay. Well it seemed a bit odd to me, so that, coupled with some other things, is why I'm voting you. No hard feelings :)

What other things?
Please explain, what these things are.
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:55 am

Post by Newbie »

I pretty much already did. I don't think your vote on Wisdom was just to start discussion but because you thought that not acting on your stance after Wisdom called you out would look bad. You'll disagree of course and we'll just continue the back and forth forever, so how about we just leave it here?
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:57 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 154, Newbie wrote:I pretty much already did. I don't think your vote on Wisdom was just to start discussion but because you thought that not acting on your stance after Wisdom called you out would look bad. You'll disagree of course and we'll just continue the back and forth forever, so how about we just leave it here?

Yeah, I know those reasons the "other reasons" you had.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:57 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 152, Newbie wrote:Okay. Well it seemed a bit odd to me, so that, coupled with some other things, is why I'm voting you. No hard feelings :)

"The other things"
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:03 am

Post by Newbie »

They were the other things I meant.
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:47 am

Post by Malakittens »

@Acyron:

The problem I had with you answering a question that was for someone else is you could influence their answer. if I'm looking for a certain reaction or someone else is looking for a certain answer and you injecting explaining how you feel automatically removes any intent to do so which isn't something that town should do. In fact you doing that is something scum does in order to protect a scum partner. So yes I hated you doing it because it influenced an answer while giving the feeling you are trying to protect someone.

Also the Wquerts' vote on Newbie reads a huge case of OMGUS.
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


Get to know a Mala~Grey<3 4.7.2015
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:28 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 130, TellTaleHeart wrote:What, you think you're going to hurt my feelings if you FoS me? You're not.

All the reasons you just said are easily faked by scum players worth their weight in salt, especially with join dates like Wisdom's and NM's. I guessing that by now, Wisdom and NM aren't complete scrubs as scum. I haven't been around long myself, but I've played a newbie game and the SE's were both scum and dropped plenty of fake "towntells." I'm not as impressed as you are.

As for philosophy, I approach the game differently than most people here do. I use much the same strategy in forum mafia as I do in RL mafia: I observe how the individual fits in (or doesn't fit in) with group dynamics and build reads on that. In RL mafia, I find that scum tend to play conservatively especially at the beginning of the day before they know what kind of town dynamics they should conform to. I certainly do as scum; it's the optimal play and they win most of the time by doing so. I'm not very good at the whole "question and answer" thing that seems to be popular on this site because 1) I don't think I ask the right questions and 2) I'm not competent enough to do anything with the answers I get. So, I watch other people's modes of logic and try to fill in blanks.
[...]
Also, if others voted with me at this stage, I would be kind of suspicious since all the stuff I explained makes sense in my head, but I don't necessarily expect it to make sense to other people. Because it probably doesn't.

First of all, take a look at the beginning and the end of this post. You criticise me for making a point to not FoS you, but you preemptively cast suspicion on anyone who'd be willing to vote you for your reasoning? Regardless, my reads and commentary are for other people. My questions and arguments are for the people I'm talking to. And since I wasn't too confident about FoSing you, I wanted to make that clear.

Anyway, Wisdom and NM. I forgot to factcheck what you said about NM at first, but his first post points out something no one did beforehand, and he didn't even 'telegraph a scumread on Victor, so I'm not sure what you're smoking with respect to that. Wisdom ALSO was the first one to point out something, that being Victor's behaviour (which in fact was what made me notice it in the first place). Furthermore, he called Victor's questions useless, not scummy; I was the one that called him scummy. Do an ISO on the 3 of them together.

So essentially, you're scumreading them for 1. doing the exact opposite of what you're saying (you said they scumread without providing reasoning, when in fact they're providing reasoning without scumreading), and 2. playing conservatively, which is entirely a playstyle. You know how much outlandish D1 scum we have on here? RL mafia may be a little louder than MS, but over half the players I see on here play pretty conservatively early on, including me.

IMO, your reasoning sucks, but we can agree to disagree on that. But what I pointed out at the beginning only amplifies my
FoS: You (TTH)
.

But since I'm not totally sure on you, might as well ask: Whatcha think of Victor? Whatcha think of wgeurts?
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:49 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Just in case I don't get around to quoting Newbie/wgeurts's barrage of posts (seriously guys, all you have to do is link to posts. [ url = (link) ] (text) [ /url ] without the spaces. Right click posts and copy link addresses), I'm reading them as TvT, but if one of them were scum, I'd say it'd be wgeurts. Funnily enough, if Newbie flips scum, I'd be almost certain wgeurts bussed her.

Sigh, here I go...
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:32 pm

Post by Mathdino »

This post is gonna be a joyride. NO ONE QUOTE ALL OF IT.

Spoiler:
In post 124, Newbie wrote:As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.
[...]
With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."
Sorry, but that argument very much seems out of thin air. It wouldn't have looked bad at all to dislike something and not vote based on it; half the playerlist has done that. Again, I don't LIKE what he did but he's completely consistent with wanting to leave RVS.

In post 127, wgeurts wrote:Also, how was that pressure?
A quick ISO would already show that Mathdino had incorrectley read my playstyle. I had litteraly already said something along the lines of I'm going to yank us all out of RVS. This also seems really opurunistic as discussion is going on this subhect already and you're just like "Hey, guys check this new definetley not based off others case on wgeurts.". This seems really scum to me, the timing is just perfect.
VOTE: Newbie
I'll ISO in a second to see more.
I did? Show me where. My point was I wasn't sure if everything you said before the gambit was part of the gambit itself. And yes, it's not based off of others. Where's the opurunism in voting what she finds scummy?

In post 131, wgeurts wrote:You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.
I don't like these posts at all. At the very least they showcase misguided arrogance, and at the most it's scummy. It'd be a dumbass move to not read your posts whether town or scum (although given your post spamming, it wouldn't be as dumb now). Newbie did do scumhunting; her first target was you. Do you not count that as scumhunting because you were her first suspicion?

And lastly, did you just SELF-META right before saying that Newbie providing her previous games should be discounted??? Newbie giving links for us to read is helpful. You telling us why you're town because of it is suspicious.

In post 140, wgeurts wrote:I expected an OMGUS accusation to come from somewhere. Honestly I do find OMGUS rather weak, it basically allows you to attack someone as scum and if they retaliate you can shrug it off as OMGUS. I'm not voting Newbie as OMGUS, I'm voting him because her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted what so ever so far yet suddenley leaps on to me as discussion on me arises. If Newbie's actions change so will my read however if someone votes someone after they vote them it doesn't have to be OMGUS. It would have been OMGUS if I had no reasons to do so and voted him because he voted me. I did have reasons so no OMGUS. Now I can hear people saying;
"You only voted him because of his vote and push in his post though."
No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.
Is there anything Newbie could've said in her vote post that you wouldn't find suspicious? And I'm not sure how pointing out OMGUS is showing some sort of link. I have a townread on Newbie. However I could have a scumread on her and still think you're OMGUSing.

In post 142, wgeurts wrote:What the heck is wrong with random voting in the RVS?
My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.
That was not a random vote. You made up a BS reason and voted him for reactions. That's not random. You're being seriously inconsistent, man.

And yes, it was LITERALLY based off of thin air.

Okay I decided to spoiler the above but I highly recommend y'all reading. If you're gonna quote parts of it, remove the spoiler tag.

Conclusions: wgeurts is way scummier than I thought before, but since I still don't think Victor and he are scum together, I'm going to keep my vote on Victor for now. Scumspects are in order, Victor or wgeurts, and TTH. Newbie still seems town.
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:46 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 140, wgeurts wrote:No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

I just realised, you're mason fishing, aren't you? Interactive tells are very different in a mason game.

Yeah, this is enough for me to UNVOTE: Victor

VOTE: wgeurts
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:50 pm

Post by blindmewithscience »

Wow, I missed a ton...

Alright, so just to make sure that I'm understanding this all:
The arguments that I'm seeing ATM:
Wgeurts voted Wisdom supposedly to get us out of RVS. Now, he unvoted after receiving some pressure, but his weird behavior sparked lots of debate. Is suspected by Mathdino and Newbie (anyone I missed?)
Also, VictorDeAngelo appeared to question Mathdino's desire for a meta.
Is there anything else that I'm missing with everything that's been going on?
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:28 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 142, wgeurts wrote:My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

This is not true. You said you voted me because you didn't like my wagoning. Why change your reason now?
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:34 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 163, blindmewithscience wrote:Wow, I missed a ton...

Alright, so just to make sure that I'm understanding this all:
The arguments that I'm seeing ATM:
Wgeurts voted Wisdom supposedly to get us out of RVS. Now, he unvoted after receiving some pressure, but his weird behavior sparked lots of debate. Is suspected by Mathdino and Newbie (anyone I missed?)
Also, VictorDeAngelo appeared to question Mathdino's desire for a meta.
Is there anything else that I'm missing with everything that's been going on?


Pretty much. Do you have your own opinion on all of this?
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:42 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 164, Wisdom wrote:
In post 142, wgeurts wrote:My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

This is not true. You said you voted me because you didn't like my wagoning. Why change your reason now?

Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?
Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:48 pm

Post by Mathdino »

And mate, I love how you took my conclusion as my reasons. Wasn't gonna vote you until I actually went through and responded to your ISO. Last I checked, if I didn't think you looked scummier, my vote would be a policy lynch vote
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:54 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 167, Mathdino wrote:And mate, I love how you took my conclusion as my reasons. Wasn't gonna vote you until I actually went through and responded to your ISO. Last I checked, if I didn't think you looked scummier, my vote would be a policy lynch vote

If they weren't your reasons I may be mistaken, I'm sorry if that's the case. However if they aren't the reasons then what are the "real reasons".
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:06 pm

Post by Mathdino »

You did read this post, right? At post 127, I thought you were misguided. At post 131 I thought you were being arrogant. At post 134 I thought you were hypocritical. And by the time I went over 140 and 142, I thought you were inconsistent and scummy. By the time I noticed what I interpret as mason-fishing, I thought you were scum.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:07 pm

Post by Wisdom »

wgeurts wrote:
In post 164, Wisdom wrote:
Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?

Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?
Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.

Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:07 pm

Post by Wisdom »

Fixed messed up quoting

wgeurts wrote:
Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?

Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?
Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.

Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:38 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 169, Mathdino wrote:You did read this post, right? At post 127, I thought you were misguided. At post 131 I thought you were being arrogant. At post 134 I thought you were hypocritical. And by the time I went over 140 and 142, I thought you were inconsistent and scummy. By the time I noticed what I interpret as mason-fishing, I thought you were scum.

Mason fishing?
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:39 pm

Post by Wisdom »

Looking for reactions from the masons.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:40 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 171, Wisdom wrote:Fixed messed up quoting

wgeurts wrote:
Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?

Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?
Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.

Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?

As far as I can remember it contains masons and mafia with no PR's.
I'm not changing my reasons, if we're going to face it it was really weak reasoning I even said that when I gave my reasons. What have I changed? I'm honestly confused.

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