Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[FinnLaw]

Hey everyone, I'll be reading up soon, shouldn't take too long. Post soon.

[FinnLaw]

Wgeurts un-vote, even if your frustrated don't go self voting.

While you've done a few things which I haven't liked reading over the topic, I get the feeling you just frustrated townie. This issue arose out of something in RVS and has been going 10 pages in. It seems more like you feel backed into a corner over an issue in rvs and people just aren't dropping the situation even though you feel you have nothing else to say on it.

I think its more townie feeling frustrated than scum thinking there going to be lynched so they self vote to try to show us only they wouldn't self vote if they were scum.

[FinnLaw]

Not sure about you, Finn, but I don't give a crap about what happened in RVS. Like I said, I honestly do believe what he did back then was exactly what he said he was doing: a reaction test.

My problem lies in his battle with Newbie, his hypocrisy about meta, the weak links he likes to point out, and the outright asking me to claim.

Yeah I actually agree with the reasons your suspicious of him.

First the inconsistencies pointed out in his posts are suspicious, it's double standards in relation to meta. He can't claim that meta is wrong most of the time and you should generally ignore it, but later ask people to use it when it relates to him.

Then the mason situation. His post in #182 where he was asking you to claim was very anti-town. It was just very illogical from a town point of view. To claim mason at this stage under no pressure and if you were scum you're not going to reveal it, the post was of no benefit to town. We shouldn't be asking someone to claim mason at this time, it was simply unnecessary and anti-town so this defiantly bugs me.

But then I don't like how this mason situations started. What caused this discussion was Wgeurt saying that if Newbie flips scum he would find you suspicious. To me this is just him potentially seeing you and Newbie as scum buddies he wasn't talking about masons. I actually feel you made a bigger deal out of it than needed and created the issue around the masons.

There are several good points made against him and he defiantly has done suspicious things and I'm thinking would I not normally think this is a pretty good case against him? But on the other hand I just have this gut feeling that he is simply frustrated town. 11 pages in and the majority of pressure has been on him. I feel he has been tunnelled somewhat and this has caused him to make stupid comments which aren't necessarily comments from scum breaking under pressure. It seems he feels like he is backed into a corner and can't get through to people and so is frustrated and giving up but from a town point of view. I just get more of a feeling he's frustrated so has he just said stupid things because of this.

Sorry for the quite long paragraph post. Hey again Mala .

[FinnLaw]

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

This overreaction continues being on the borders between newbtown and scum faking a newb.

From what I've read, I don't think people are tunneling him that hard that such a reaction would be warranted.

But then people new to the game often don't understand this.

Ugh. Dunno.

Wisdom you said you don't think others are tunnelling that hard to warrant the reaction he gave. On the topic of tunnelling, would you say you have been tunnelling Wgeurt?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

Wisdom you didn't like Wgeurt's quick recovery, saying he acted like nothing happened. He un-vote because people (myself included) asked him to un-vote. The self vote was anti-town. You said he acted like nothing happened, to you how was he should he have acted?

[FinnLaw]

No? I was thinking there is a chance he's just a newbie so I refrained from scumreading him right away, but it just doesn't seem that likely after his recent posts. How am I tunneling?

I wasn't saying you were tunnelling, I just wanted to know your opinion. You don't think you are. I feel while you have been focussed on him I'm not necessarily sure it's tunnelling. I'm thinking if you were tunnelling him then you would have put your vote on him earlier.

(Although when I was looking for a definition of what tunnelling is actually classified as, your wiki page was amongst the results where it mentioned you have a history of tunnelling. Just thought that was a funny coincidence)

Usually newbtowns who throw a tantrum and self-vote like he did refuse to listen to reason and just stubbornly insist that they should be lynched because they're a liability etc. wgeurts on the other hand completely recovered and started throwing suspicions towards the most suspected people, as if his "frustration" and the whole ordeal never happened. It just looks like the whole thing was just an act to gain the town's sympathy, and when he did so, he dropped it and went back to trying to push mislynches.

I just don't think it was natural, dunno how else to explain it.

I think looking at your view it's like you expected him to just continue to complain about it and not move on. To me his reaction was fine and how he should of reacted. Once he un-votes he should then be trying to put some arguments across as an alternative lynch, he shouldn't just continue to complain about the same issue.

You mentioned he 'started throwing suspicions towards the most suspected people.' Those people were you and VDA. I would say the people Wgeurt has been at odds with are you, VDA, Mathdino and also Newbie. So for him to suspect you two is kind of expected.

[FinnLaw]

Wgeurts your not seriously talking about masons claimaing again are you?

[FinnLaw]

@wisdom, i get where Wgeurt is coming from about being locked in a situation where he looks scummy either way. It's like TTH pointed out its come across a catch 22 situation.

His reaction after un-vote was suspicious to you. You thought that it would be more natural to not un-vote right. But then not un-voting is also anti- town so its like a lose lose situation.

[FinnLaw]

FinnLaw

, you probably didn't notice because I put it in the middle of a line, but I asked what your other reads were, if any.

Wgeurt

- First with Wgeurt I don't know what to think. As I have mentioned before he has done a few suspicious things, which when looking at it as if it was another game I question myself would I be saying that looks like a good read? But I had a gut feeling that he was just frustrated town and this is the explanation for some of his comments. But then he goes for a second time with the mason claim. Once ok, it seemed like he was led into that situation the first time anyway but a second time, really!! So right now I don't know where I stand on him.

I think it's likely that there was scum on the Wgeurt wagon. The wagon consisted of VDA, Newbie, Mathdino, Blindmewithscience and Wisdom.

Blindmewithscience

- Looking at Blindmewithscience he hasn't posted too much. His first two posts provide nothing in the way of arguments or opinions but I do like his other two posts. Is he simply busy or lurking?

In regards to his posts, it was Blind that pointed out the incontinences in Wgeurt's posts about meta which I liked. It was a good catch and seems like he's scum hunting here with him analysing Wgeurt's posts and catching him out. I also liked his last post, he wanted a defence from Wgeurt so it would help him in deciding whether Wgeurt is the right lynch or not. I like this, he's not jumping to conclusions, he wants to be certain he's right before lynching which to me seems town. So while he's posted little, I like his posts which actually count. So I'm leaning town on him.

Wisdom

- With Wisdom, I'm probably leaning slightly scum. I just disagree with some of the arguments he is making about Wgeurt and I do feel Wgeurt can't win in Wisdoms eyes over the self-vote situation. I do feel it's a catch 22, and I just don't think this is helpfully for town. (I understand Wisdom disagrees with the catch 22 but I do feel it's a catch 22.)

What is bugging me is that I have Wisdom leaning slightly town and just confused with Wgeurt he could be scum but then I don't think the two of them would be arguing like this if they were scum buddies. So if any which one is it? Probably vote soon but not just yet, want to be more comfortable with my decision.

Mathdino

- Leaning town with Mathdino, I think he has been the main talker of the group providing arguments and discussion. He has been scum hunting and trying to gain information. I generally agree with most of the reasons about why he finds Wgeurt scummy but it was my gut feeling that Wgeurt is frustrated town then has kept me torn. One thing I didn't agree with was the initial mason discussion. Math thought Wgeurt was mason fishing, I disagreed with this as I simply saw it as Wgeurt seeing Math and Newbie as scum buddies not masons. I felt Math made a bigger deal of the mason stuff and led Wgeurt into the situation. But then Wgeurt goes and makes a second comment about masons claiming. So was Math right all along?

VDA

- I didn't see anything wrong with someone asking Newbie for meta even if they weren't asking other people. So I thought it was a little odd from VDA but I don't know if it was really anything to look into. But honestly I was a little confused as to who was saying what over the meta stuff. Null right now, generally get a good feel from VDA but will see more when he's done on VLA.

For newbie, haven't really looked at her enough yet need to read up.

As for players outside the wagon null on Not_Mafia, Mala and Acryon and need to look at Silverwolf.

With Acryon there was a issue for some players with Acryon answering a question for someone else. Personally I don't find this suspicious generally. I think I do that sometimes, I just see it as him offering his opinion on the matter which he is entitled to but I did understand Mala's explanation of why she didn't like it in #158.

Long post sorry and don't think I forget to mention anyone but sorry if I did.

[FinnLaw]

Wisdom

- With Wisdom,

I'm probably leaning slightly scum.

I just disagree with some of the arguments he is making about Wgeurt and I do feel Wgeurt can't win in Wisdoms eyes over the self-vote situation. I do feel it's a catch 22, and I just don't think this is helpfully for town. (I understand Wisdom disagrees with the catch 22 but I do feel it's a catch 22.)

What is bugging me is that

I have Wisdom leaning slightly town

and just confused with Wgeurt he could be scum but then I don't think the two of them would be arguing like this if they were scum buddies. So if any which one is it? Probably vote soon but not just yet, want to be more comfortable with my decision.

What? Which is it?

Thanks for pointing out the mistake, just a typo, the second paragraph should be leaning slightly scum not town.

What I was saying is I have Wisdom as leaning slightly scum and I didn’t know what to think with Wgeurt, he could swing either way. But what I was trying to say is that I’m suspicious of both but I don’t think they both will be scum so which one is it.

[FinnLaw]

Just a quick thought I wanted to put out there. While Mathdino seems to be the biggest scum hunter so far, his posts are very detailed and analytical. I am finding Mathdino's voting suspicious. It's very wishy washy. His vote has changed 3 times in one real time day (yesterday).

What do people think about Mathdino's posting?

@Mathdino, I see you've asked for my views on the Silver discussion. I'll get back to you later tonight with where I stand on it. Need to check whether something Silver claimed is true or not.

[FinnLaw]

@FinnLaw: So I'm assuming you don't like detailed/analytical?

I would attribute the apparent wishiwashiness to the fact that if I were in charge, we'd lynch wgeurts and Silver in succession. My vote is just indicative of which one I find scummier at that particular point in time, but I'd gladly vote for either, hence my willingness to switch so much. Watch me.
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf
And thanks, I look forward to it.

I just looked at my post again and it does read like I don't like detailed/analytical posts ha.

They might be harder and longer to read sometimes but no I actually do like them. They provide a deeper insight and I feel there beneficial to the town. It shows your willingness to scum hunt and that your actually invested in the game.

[FinnLaw]

Which is why I think we need more discussion on Silver. Paging

blindmewithscience

,

FinnLaw

,

Malakittens

, and

TTH

. Finn and TTH in particular since they've posted since my case and haven't discussed at all yet.

One of the reasons Silver is being attacked is due to people claiming she hasn't provided anything original. The issue for Silver is that she is being attacked for this but the several people attacking her are attacking her with similar views so she feels that one thing applies to her but not to others.

I kind of get why she feels like this but I think it depends on how far you look back into the game. People might share similar views every now and again, and it is ok for Silver to share similar views with people but it becomes an issue when a player provides nothing substantial which is original. So I understand it that Mathdino and Wisdom etc feel that with Silver she has sheeped other people's views too far and hasn't provided anything substantial. Right now I agree she has been sharing other peoples views. But is it sheeping? I don't know if Silver has posted anything substantial which is original, honestly I haven't looked back far enough, it seems like such a hard job.

Right now, I'm not necessarily sold on the sheeping argument (that could change if I read up more and decide she hasn't provided enough original content.)

But I haven't liked Silver's defence/response. I found at times it was just unhelpful. I get she thought she was having to repeat herself and no one was listening but I didn't like posts where she won't answer a question instead just saying I've already answered ... At least say "I answered that question previously here ..."

Guys, I'd like to hear more thoughts on Silver's behaviour since getting attacked.

I'm generally not very good with emotional

people

players

because I am a robot

so I'd really appreciate some input here so I don't end up assuming everything emotional is

stupid and illogical

AtE.

I didn't like the AtE stuff when reading over, I didn't know the term specifically but those comments when reading them rubbed me the wrong way. At the point when comments such as

I'm seriously questioning even continuing with this game as I don't like spending the majority of my time on defense over accusations that make no sense and that I can't seem to defend myself from because you two aren't going to like anything I say.

That takes all the fun out of the game for me and I can relate even more to what wgeurts was feeling.

.... were made I didn't think that there had been enough pressure at that point to warrant the response. I wasn't at the same level of pressure Wgeurt received in my view.

So there is stuff I don't like coming from Silver such as the AtE but right now I don't know whether Silver has posted anything substantially original. If she hasn't then the sheeping become a bigger issue. But at this moment I'm not near a vote on her.

[FinnLaw]

I don't care for a few things this post. The mason fishing argument is bunk and Malakittens has wgeurts as a townread anyway so I'm not sure where these hypothetical associative tells come into play or why it's worth mentioning. Also, I've notice that multiple people (not just Malakittens) say the phrase "I could see X as scum." This is a completely meaningless buzz-phrase, in my opinion. If I thought long enough I could imagine

anyone

being scum but that doesn't make the line of thought any more valid or worth pursuing.

This paragraph makes TTH my biggest town-read.

Why, care to elaborate?

Oh wow, is this dude serious? He is currently the newest member to join the site, do you actually think he might be a troll? He doesn't seem to willing to read up.

[FinnLaw]

@St Constantine - Do you have any prior experience with mafia?

[FinnLaw]

@St Constantine - Do you have any prior experience with mafia?

Indeed, I only said that four posts up, la la la

Oh yes you did. I was just wondering coz you've already applied to join in a few games was hoping you weren't just a troll. We just spoiling your fun with your language style.

[FinnLaw]

Thy has pledged to the gods that all posts will be kept productive henceforth.
If you are willing, please share your reads.

Read up the thread as expected when replacing in and you will work out people's reads. A couple of players have summarised people's reads at different stages which should help you.

[FinnLaw]

After delving deeper into the scripture, I've been enlightened with intriguing news.
Wguert's has the devil's gleam, when he tells us he's a freemason. I'm leaning to believe him, but on the off chance he is possessed by the devil,

wouldn't it be in our best interests to have one freemason claim?

Therefore you confirm wguert's as either being truly a mason, or with a scum buddy.

Scrap that, there's no way Lucifer's fallen angels would be foolish enough to claim to be Freemasons. Otherwise there would be three actual freemason's pushing his lynch.
The lord is simply encouraging me to share my ideas. Just make sure apostles, if wguert's is not a member of the freemasonry, you should speak up so he may receive Scaphism.

As wisdom pointed out, St Constantine has been hinting at the mason setup and Mathdino pointed out that it was St Constatine himself that said we shouldn't be talking about masons.

I remember back to the quote above. While he did turn around his view in the same post I still don't like how he originally wanted one mason to claim.

Will try to read up more later today, havent been as active the past few days.

[FinnLaw]

FinnLaw's the tricky one because even in my old set of reads, I never got happy with a townread on him and I think I now know why. I notice in general that he's very laid back and go-with-the-flow. Probably the most striking feature of FinnLaw's ISO is actually that he never votes. That bothers me because it's not like he hasn't expressed opinions; it seems he can do that perfectly fine. It might be explained by his personality, but I'm not at all sure.

I get 'I'm very laid back' a lot IRL to. I tend not to vote as much as others and I think my personality of being laid back plays into this. My voting is something I have said I want to work on as it is my only weapon. I think I don't use it as much because I prefer to have a stronger read before voting someone usually, but it's something I'm going to look to improve on.

Now I'm slightly confused as to what's just recently happened here, I maybe think I know what it is but it doesn't look like an explanation is going to be given anything soon.