Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[reinoe]

I've reported for trolling, this is his first game.

PRE-EMPTIVE MOD NOTE...

I'M NOT TAKING ANY ACTION ON THIS

ALSO PAGE TOP

[FinnLaw]

I don't care for a few things this post. The mason fishing argument is bunk and Malakittens has wgeurts as a townread anyway so I'm not sure where these hypothetical associative tells come into play or why it's worth mentioning. Also, I've notice that multiple people (not just Malakittens) say the phrase "I could see X as scum." This is a completely meaningless buzz-phrase, in my opinion. If I thought long enough I could imagine

anyone

being scum but that doesn't make the line of thought any more valid or worth pursuing.

This paragraph makes TTH my biggest town-read.

Why, care to elaborate?

Oh wow, is this dude serious? He is currently the newest member to join the site, do you actually think he might be a troll? He doesn't seem to willing to read up.

[FinnLaw]

@St Constantine - Do you have any prior experience with mafia?

[St Constantine the Hermit]

@St Constantine - Do you have any prior experience with mafia?

Indeed, I only said that four posts up, la la la

[FinnLaw]

@St Constantine - Do you have any prior experience with mafia?

Indeed, I only said that four posts up, la la la

Oh yes you did. I was just wondering coz you've already applied to join in a few games was hoping you weren't just a troll. We just spoiling your fun with your language style.

[FinnLaw]

Thy has pledged to the gods that all posts will be kept productive henceforth.
If you are willing, please share your reads.

Read up the thread as expected when replacing in and you will work out people's reads. A couple of players have summarised people's reads at different stages which should help you.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

After delving deeper into the scripture, I've been enlightened with intriguing news.
Wguert's has the devil's gleam, when he tells us he's a freemason. I'm leaning to believe him, but on the off chance he is possessed by the devil, wouldn't it be in our best interests to have one freemason claim?
Therefore you confirm wguert's as either being truly a mason, or with a scum buddy.

Scrap that, there's no way Lucifer's fallen angels would be foolish enough to claim to be Freemasons. Otherwise there would be three actual freemason's pushing his lynch.
The lord is simply encouraging me to share my ideas. Just make sure apostles, if wguert's is not a member of the freemasonry, you should speak up so he may receive Scaphism.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Considering no children have CC'd Wguert's, we should treat him as confirmed town. I haven't made it past the tenth page of the holy advent yet, so bear with me.

[TellTaleHeart]

Considering no children have CC'd Wguert's, we should treat him as confirmed town. I haven't made it past the tenth page of the holy advent yet, so bear with me.

I see you haven't gotten to page 12 yet...

I'm a little curious about how where you think you saw a mason claim.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Considering no children have CC'd Wguert's, we should treat him as confirmed town. I haven't made it past the tenth page of the holy advent yet, so bear with me.

I see you haven't gotten to page 12 yet...

I'm a little curious about how where you think you saw a mason claim.

I'll admit to some skimming of the holy advent. What I gathered was that wguert's claimed freemason, and is now asking the others to reveal their identities.
I just skimmed page 12. TBH, I usually don't read much back into games I'm replacing into. I request my apostles do the bidding for me.
It becomes harder to read in my old age.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Mistakes, the lord has no time for them. ISO'd Wguert's, he didn't claim freemason, but he did freemason fish a little later on.

Mathdino was the first person to accuse him of freemason fishing. I don't think he freemason fished before the accusation, but he definitely did after.
I think it is a huge mistake to have all three freemasons claim on D1. They already know they're confirmed town, and they don't need to prove it to others.
If they did, then they could claim freemason when the time is actually justified. Besides that, it is pretty much taking whatever advantage the freemason's have, and throwing them in the NP as scum cannon fodder.

The lord has one requisite for this game,

DO NOT MENTION MASONS

This is one of the rare game set-up's where town has a huge advantage over a 2-3 man scum team. Don't waste it.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Third Holy Commandment of Open 575: Friends & Enemies Mafia

Thou Shalt Not Mention Masons, or burneth in the dead thread

[blindmewithscience]

If you want really, really basic information about what's happened so far, check out my 163 and 325, and mathdinos summary of reads in 386. But this just gives a REALLY general overview. Please formulate your own opinions on everything and read everything.
Welcome to the game

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Wow, I missed a ton...

Alright, so just to make sure that I'm understanding this all:
The arguments that I'm seeing ATM:
Wgeurts voted Wisdom supposedly to get us out of RVS. Now, he unvoted after receiving some pressure, but his weird behavior sparked lots of debate. Is suspected by Mathdino and Newbie (anyone I missed?)
Also, VictorDeAngelo appeared to question Mathdino's desire for a meta.
Is there anything else that I'm missing with everything that's been going on?

I don't appreciate what I interpret as buddying from blindme.

Hah, wouldn't call it "buddying", man. Note that I did call your argument weak in my last main post, and was criticizing Silver's response.


@Wisdom: You seem wholeheartedly convinced in wgeurts' scumminess. I'd say wait until he posts again with content that can help us make a decision. I don't want to "jump on your wagon" until I'm sure that it's not going to break underneath me and have me fall to my death .

So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.

Alright, so like blindme said, this town's incredibly divided and at this rate if everyone votes their top suspects, no one's getting lynched. Halfway into the day, I think we're ready to look at our options:
Guys, correct me if I'm wrong on these.

acryon

wants to lynch Silver and is willing to lynch wgeurts.

blindmewithscience

wants to lynch wgeurts and seems unsure on Wisdom and Silver (

blindme

, I'd appreciate your thoughts on those 2 wagons and anyone else you feel is worthy of suspicion).

FinnLaw

seems willing to lynch Wisdom and is unsure on wgeurts.

Malakittens

wants to lynch acryon and is unsure on a whole bunch of people (

Mala

, I don't think we're getting a lynch on acryon. I only speak for me but I'm pretty sure he's town atm. If you want, build a case, but I'd prefer your thoughts on the other suspects)

Mathdino

wants to lynch Silver and is willing to lynch wgeurts.

Newbie

wants to lynch Wisdom (

Newbie

, I'd really appreciate if you expanded on your other suspicions just in case the Wisdom wagon doesn't pull through)

Not_Mafia

is unwilling to lynch wgeurts and is on V/LA.

SilverWolf

wants to lynch Wisdom and seems willing to lynch acryon and Mathdino.

TellTaleHeart

wants to lynch Wisdom.

VictorDeAngelo

wants to lynch wgeurts, and based on wgeurts being scum is willing to lynch SilverWolf and blindmewithscience.

wgeurts

wants to lynch Wisdom and is willing to lynch Victor. (Hasn't posted since the Silver suspicions started popping up.

wgeurts

, thoughts on that?)

Wisdom

wants to lynch wgeurts and is willing to lynch SilverWolf or Newbie, seems unsure on Mala.

That's 6 on Wisdom, 5 on wgeurts, 4 on Silver, 2 on acryon, 1 on blindme, 1 on Newbie, 1 on myself, 1 on Victor.
However, we should note that the majority of the town that's talked is unwilling to lynch wgeurts right now, so unless that's our only option other than a NL, that wagon doesn't seem like it's going to pull through.
For the Wisdom wagon, people who aren't already voting him seem fairly unsure on him.

Which is why I think we need more discussion on Silver. Paging

blindmewithscience

,

FinnLaw

,

Malakittens

, and

TTH

. Finn and TTH in particular since they've posted since my case and haven't discussed at all yet.

The lord renown's and promote's thee to layman. 325 and 386 are incredibly detailed. So we know who wants to lynch who. Now let's just figure out the why for everyone.

Everyone who wants to lynch Wguerts, re-elaborate

briefly

why?
Everyone who wants to lynch Wisdom, re-elaborate

briefly

why?
Everyone who wants to lynch Silver, re-elaborate

briefly

why?

Finally, Malakittens, explain your read on acyron, because I may be sharing just a tad bit in your suspicions.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

^Seriously, none of this dodging the question bullshit? Everyone needs to confess their reads to the lord. Everyone.
Jesus and I are only interested in the read of the person you want to lynch.

[Newbie]

I've read up and really don't have anything new to say except that TTH comes off as extremely town and that wgeurts' town/mafia reads are interesting. Looking forward to his case on me.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I've read up and really don't have anything new to say except that TTH comes off as extremely town and that wgeurts' town/mafia reads are interesting. Looking forward to his case on me.

I asked every player to elaborate their reads on the person they want lynched.
Why is Wisdom scummy to you?

[Newbie]

I asked every player to elaborate their reads on the person they want lynched.
Why is Wisdom scummy to you?

It's pretty much laid out straightforwardly here. Plus the the really good point that wgeurts' makes right here.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm currently working from townreads on Victor, Newbie, mathdino, Silver Wolf, wgeurts, and Malakittens for varying reasons. Everyone else, I'm still in the process of sorting.

After reviewing the game, I'm still confident enough in my Victor, Newbie, Mathdino, Silver Wolf, and wgeurts town reads. I will add acryon to the list. I had some questions about Victor going into the review, but I saw things I liked that gave me confidence in my first impression town read.

The remaining playerlist stands at: Wisdom, FinnLaw, Constantine, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, Malakittens

I'm left with the problem of Malakittens and this read is my top priority right now because of its importance. I'd like to be able to just trust my first impression, but if I'm wrong about Mala being town, that pollutes my reads of those left in my "could be scum" pool. Mala being scum would be pretty exculpatory evidence for Wisdom and Wisdom is effecting my reads of a few others in the remaining suspects (most importantly blindmewithscience). These are all associative tells that aren't really worth talking about because I'd be getting too far ahead of myself, but the domino effect is still there and Wisdom is a key player for me since I'm voting him right now and he's the current leading wagon.

I have a few minor things from Mala's ISO that aren't really worth going over and will reduce the discussion to quibbles about theory, so I'll just leave them alone because there's something else that has priority. What has me

most

concerned is the dynamic with Wisdom. I see that Malakittens voted Wisdom in her first post with a friendly "herro," but other than maybe, I wouldn't know they knew each other at all. The trouble is that when I review both their activities (I figured out that you can do more than one person's ISO side-by-side today) it looks like neither of them are engaged with the other for the majority of the game, so I don't think Mala can necessarily be faulted for it.
(^I'm not really sure what the point of that paragraph was. I guess just me ranting.)

One thing that's kind of bizarre to me is how people are trying to tie together wgeurts and Mala. I think acryon and Wisdom mentioned this and someone else repeated it, if I'm recalling correctly. I think the accusations of "coaching" are just out-and-out wrong considering that Mala's characterization of wgeurt's "townflail" came

after

wgeurt's meltdown. It comes off to me as an angle to keep shoving the wgeurt's lynch and putting Mala on the defensive.

[TellTaleHeart]

Well that last post probably added more to the confusion than it helped and it wasn't very well written.

I guess what I want from Malakittens

:
Wisdom is saying that you've been avoiding him this game. What's

your

side of the story? I don't know your history, so is it that you two commonly look for certain tells from one another or what is it?

(By the way, would you be alright with me abbreviating your name to "Mala" or is that overfamiliar?)

[blindmewithscience]

Still on mobile, still can't link easily.
Main summary of wgeurts points is in my 445.
Summary of Silver points are 360.

BTW, silver: Please respond DIRECTLY to the arguments pointed out by math in 384. Not satisfied with your 447, as it didn't directly respond to the bolder posts. Also note that acryon says that 247 should instead have been 257.

Summary of wisdom points: to me the case is mainly because of his criticism of wgeurts. Please correct me if wrong.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Alright then.
I believe that wgeurts leans scum because:

Spoiler: Science Explanation

Main Points

1. Masonfishing. While I agree with your point in you previous post that he

could

be someone who believes that masonfishing was somehow good, this point doesn't work for me because wgeurts was explicitly told not to masonfish, such as in 187, before pushing a masonclaim in 288. Your argument in favor of him isn't working well one for me.
2. Contradictions. See my post 225, which there still has not been a response to.
Other, weaker points (including some made by other players)
3. His weird voting. The quite rapid unvoting of himself (which I agree he should have done), his voting near the beginning of the game.
4. Absence on this forum while continuing to participate in other games (check his post history).
I want a response to 1 and 2 (and maybe 4) when (if?) returns.


Now for my entire conclusion:
We all agree that a Wisdom/wgeurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely. While the cases against Wisdom are legitimate, the argument against wgeurts is much stronger IMO. And so I believe that Wisdom is the townie and wgeurts is scum. With Silver somewhat defending wgeurts, I could see a scumteam with her and wgeurts (but I'm still waiting for a response to my 406, as I can also see the frustrated townie in her). I'll try to add more and expand on this later: have some tests tomorrow that I'd like to study for. Probably won't check this again for another few hours.

Well that last post probably added more to the confusion than it helped and it wasn't very well written.

Aye child, and for what reasons do you have for wanting to murder Wisdom?

~mod note:what was once brokt is now fixt

[Newbie]

[/b]
Summary of wisdom points: to me the case is mainly because of his criticism of wgeurts. Please correct me if wrong.

For me, it's because it seeemed like he was trying to skirt through the phase and not take a firm stand on anything.

[Malakittens]

You two have a history (which allows you to read each other well)?

Yes, and notably she's one of the players I'm most accurate at reading.

That's not entirely true and we both know this. You have to tunnel me and see how I react to figure out whether or not I'm scum or town.

[Malakittens]

Anyway reading this guy is going to be a bloody nightmare.

Actually I find this the opposite. Of all the players in the game I find he's the easiest to understand.