Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[SilverWolf]

VOTE: SilverWolf because dinosaurs eat wolves.

If anything, wouldn't that fact make you

not

vote for SilverWolf, since you aren't afraid of him?

On the contrary good sir, I'm polite enough to wait until Silver's dead in order to eat him.

Hi everyone. I see I'm being threatened before I even get my first post in.

VOTE: Mathdino

[SilverWolf]

Not voting until there's more info.

Voting, and the reactions to voting, actually provide a lot more info. then just saying you aren't going to vote. Is there some reason you want to hold back?

[SilverWolf]

I find it weird that wgeurts unlynched wisdom when he started to receive a bit of heat for it.

I agree, this seems odd. There should be no problem explaining your vote, even if others don't agree with it. It appeared to be a pressure vote due to Wisdom's liking wagons. So why not stick with it? It seems wgeurts got a little nervous there under pressure. Is it newb town or newb scum? I can't tell at this point. I'm also a newbie at this game. It seems worth taking a note of however.

I liked his explanation that he was pulling kind of a Slayer's gambit to see if he could get scum to jump on him for it so that kind of seems like he's trying to scum hunt so because of that, I'm willing to hold off on a vote for him until I see more from him. FoS Wgeurts

[SilverWolf]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

I'm not sure what the problem is. I would think getting meta would be sharing useful information. I intend to look at meta of the players here. So even though you said you wanted to know why mathdino wanted that particular info. I guess I fail to see the problem with this and your explanation really didn't help me much. You are making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone. It's possible you just want to question Mathdino like you said, but this seems an odd thing to question him about. This is something else I am taking note of. FoS VictorDeAngelo

[SilverWolf]

I'm getting a slight town feel on Mathdino due to the detail of his posts and willingness to discuss and share info. I also like his line of questioning of the other players. Not getting much from anyone else yet except the 3 I have mentioned.

UNVOTE: Mathdino

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

Better vote.

[SilverWolf]

I'm getting a slight town feel on Mathdino due to the detail of his posts and willingness to discuss and share info. I also like his line of questioning of the other players. Not getting much from anyone else yet except the 3 I have mentioned.

UNVOTE: Mathdino

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

Better vote.

Why?

It looks like a lot of this playerlist will probably be scrutinized by me from me. The many scum games that I have either modded/played with by VDA it doesn't seem to mirror them, but it doesn't mirror VDA's town play either. Something feels off about him, but I'm not exactly sure of what yet.

I explained it some in 85 but the fact that he jumped on mathdino due to him asking Newbie for games she's played in seemed off. It seemed like a good question to me so I don't understand why VDA made such an issue of it. If you see his line of questioning, he seemed to take issue with the fact that mathdino was only asking Newbie but I still don't see the problem here so it seemed like he was forcing an issue and making a problem out of something that isn't a problem at all. Asking for games/meta is a protown thing IMO. So he seemed to be looking for a reason to cast suspicion on mathdino. Perhaps fabricating a scumread.

[SilverWolf]

I don't like Acyron injecting here.

Here's the thing. I have seen this type of thing happen many times IRL and several times in my few games on here, and it almost always comes from scum. I always try to call it out when I see it, because it tends to be the beginnings of scum controlling the flow of conversation, something I'm not interested in seeing happen. There is a difference between questioning someone for the sake of getting information with which to base reads and questioning someone about how they are playing the game. The former is more often town and the latter is more often scum.

If you think that comment from VDA could of come from scum, do you think it would of been better to see how Mathdino responded to it and where VDA was going with it?

You say you are worried about scum controlling the flow of conversations, but don't you think you are doing the same thing by injecting yourself into the conversation and trying to control it?

[SilverWolf]

Well, wgeurts reaction to the pressure and Newbie's vote seem newb-town to me.

Newbie could of made a newb-town or newb-scum move there by making an opportunistic vote like that.

So far, I'm just going to watch this interaction and make a note of it. Dropping FoS on wgeurts. FoS on Newbie

[SilverWolf]

OK, I have not yet played a game with masons in it so excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure where the mason fishing came in. I think this 182 is terrible and doesn't make wgeurts look good at all. However, Mathdino appears to be making a bigger issue out of the Masons being in the game and drawing attention to it, then wgeurts did with his comment from what I can see.

[SilverWolf]

Actually I'm kinda disappointed in today's activity, so:

SilverWolf

: Whatcha think of TTH and her reads on Wisdom and NM?

Sorry for the low activity. I've been sick unfortunately.

I'm not really understanding a scum read on NM yet because he's only made 3 posts in the game and I don't see him as anything other than null at this point.

I'm not really seeing the scum case on Wisdom right now because he's actively trying to engage the players to figure out alignments and knocked us out of RVS pretty quickly. I also like and agree with some of the points he is making. Particularly the way he is questioning wgeurts decision to unvote him and I agree'd with these posts:

Yeah, I also feel Victor's question was kind of useless and maybe even a little loaded. There are not many reasons one wants to get meta.

@TTH
I don't appreciate how you talk about me and N_M in the third person instead of trying to engage either of us. Do you care about hearing a defense to your accusations, or would you just like to get others to vote with you?

@wguerts
Can you stop talking about links and masons and everything related to this? You may not realize it, but it does help scum and nobody else.

[SilverWolf]

Welcome FinnLaw!!

[SilverWolf]

Also, I am liking Mathdino for town right now. I will try to do some better reads later when I'm feeling a little better.

[SilverWolf]

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

If you are town like you say you are, you should unvote yourself. The best way to help town if for you to give us your reads on the other players, and continue to scumhunt regardless of whether or not you are going to be lynched. Your self vote does not benefit town at all. Right now I'm having trouble deciding if you are scum or frustrated town because you have shown actions that could come from either.

Please take a deep breath, unvote yourself, and calmly and rationally lay out a defense of yourself and tell us what you think about the other players in the game. If you are VT, don't worry about the lynch, but instead worry about what we are going to be able to use from your posts after you are gone.

[SilverWolf]

Also, wegeurts, there is only 4 votes out of 7 on you without your self-vote. So help me figure out who the scum is on your wagon if you are town?

wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience (L-3)

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure mathdino is town. Newbie leans town to me so far. So, is it VDA or blindmewithscience do you think and why?

Or is wagon analysis bad right now in the game without a flip?

[SilverWolf]

It slightly troubled me when Silver defended me in 238 but I didn't give it much thought. You might actually have a point about her.

Actually my 238 was in response to a question from mathdino and wasn't so much a defense of you but rather some reasons I didn't agree with TTH's scumread of you. However, with the above comment, I've changed my mind. You appear to be pushing wgeurts who is obviously newbtown VT as scum and you continue to do so regardless of how many times he answers for himself, and you are especially pushy about it whenever the pressure seems to come off him. You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch.

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

VOTE: Wisdom

[SilverWolf]

You know, the funny thing about this is by post 279 I started to rethink my read on wgeurts and saw this as frustrated town again.

BUT THEN HE PUSHES MASON CLAIM AGAIN.

wgeurts, if you're town, and I don't think you are, think about this: a mason is basically an innocent child. Now some setups let inno childs wait and PM the mod when they want to be confirmed town, instead of confirmed on D0.
Which innocent child do you think is more powerful?

That is why we don't ask masons to claim until they can actually use this info for their benefit.

Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.

@wgeurts, if Mason's claim now, they would be picked off by scum because scum don't want conftowns around who would not be lynched, because as the number of people in the game narrows, they have a harder time hiding among the crowd and would be easier to find.

[SilverWolf]

I can recall times I self voted in frustration as town, but to be honest this doesn't feel the same. Particularly considering how early it is (in fact one slot still hasn't posted yet) so it's pretty anti-town to be pushing towards the end of the day with your own lynch. Still happy with my vote on Wgeurts.

Also, wegeurts, there is only 4 votes out of 7 on you without your self-vote. So help me figure out who the scum is on your wagon if you are town?

wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience (L-3)

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure mathdino is town. Newbie leans town to me so far. So, is it VDA or blindmewithscience do you think and why?

Or is wagon analysis bad right now in the game without a flip?

Yeah, wagon analyse is generally useless preflip. And if your interested in wagon analysis why not wait for more people to join the wagon? Wouldn't this have been the point where opportunistic scum would have been jumping on?

Scum could of been on the wagon at any point due the easy mislynch that Wgeurts has made himself out to be. But opportunistic scum jumping on the wagon when pressure seems to be easing on Wgeurts some or keeping the pressure on Wgeurts to make sure it goes through, yep I can see that and I noticed it actually happened with Wisdom's vote.

[SilverWolf]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

[SilverWolf]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.

[SilverWolf]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

Actually, I've had breakdowns like this in other games when I've been so damn frustrated with being tunnelled as scum when I am town that I have voted myself and threatened to replace out and been talked out of it and changed my mind and gone back to playing. This is something I can relate to as coming from a town mindset based on my own experiences with it which is probably why I see it as a newbtown action.

[SilverWolf]

I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.

This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.

Actually, I've had breakdowns like this in other games when I've been so damn frustrated with being tunnelled as scum when I am town that I have voted myself and threatened to replace out and been talked out of it and changed my mind and gone back to playing. This is something I can relate to as coming from a town mindset based on my own experiences with it which is probably why I see it as a newbtown action.

How easily did you change your mind? I am not arguing it can't be done, I am arguing it can't be done in a heartbeat.

In my case, it happened pretty quickly because I had some good people telling me not to let scum or paranoid town rile me up and to stay calm and all that other good advice. Getting emotional like that is something I am working very hard to control. Wgeurts could be the same personality type.

[SilverWolf]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

[SilverWolf]

I like how Silver is engaging in conversation with her top suspect who she thinks is scum
but is completely ignoring me.

Thanks for that one.

What do you want to talk about?

I told you my opinion on your case on me. I'll admit it was too harsh so sorry about that. However, most of your responses to what I have to say here is telling me I'm sheeping and not providing original content. I don't feel it is best to engage you right now if you are going to be so close-minded to everything I say. If you are convinced enough that I'm scum that your are going to remove your vote from your top scumread and place it on me, there isn't much more I can do about it.

However, if you have any questions for me or anything you want to discuss, feel free. I'm not ignoring you outright. I'll respond to you.

[SilverWolf]

So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.

There may be a split here, but if it comes down to it, I would switch to wgeurts to avoid a NL situation on D1. I just don't feel the need to vote for him right now.

And I like this post. It seems town trying to figure things out.

[SilverWolf]

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

I don't see where this comes from, do you feel like you'll be lynched? You have like one vote on you.

Also I don't get the "new players cannot be scum". Last I checked everyone has the same odds of drawing scum.

Sure new players can be scum and no I don't feel like I'm going to be lynched yet. I'm not understanding the scum case you and mathdino are working up to on me tbh. I feel like it is very superficial. I am giving my opinions and you two are jumping on me for it and again, for reasons that are not clear to me. It feels like a set-up.

[SilverWolf]

And no, your reasoning is not solid at all, it's a rehash of everything that has been said already: "omg wgeurts unvoting is so normal, he was asked to do it" when it's not and I have said why already.

Just because you feel the reasons have already been rehashed does not mean they are not accurate. I'll recap it for you.

Here's where I laid out my case. 301, 304, 305, 308.

Just because more than one person has pointed it out, does not mean it is false or bad reasoning.

[SilverWolf]

Then why'd you say that we should leave the new players alone and "focus on the real scum"? That implies that you believe the new players can't be scum.

Your opinions constantly feel as if you're echoing the consensus there is around, there is little if any original reasoning. That's why you're being attacked for them.

Because I'm new and know I'm town, I have a town-lean on Newbie and wgeurts who are new. I could be wrong about them but that's just the way I feel atm.

There's not much I can do about the fact that someone else has already given a similar opinion to me on something. I've already explained this. It doesn't make if false or wrong.

[SilverWolf]

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself. You are accusing me of not having much of a case on Wisdom but your case on me was much weaker. I feel like both yourself and Wisdom are picking at anyone you think is going to be an easy target which makes me look at both of you as scum looking for the easy mislynch.

Do you think I'm scum?

I had a town-lean on you until your case on me and your somewhat aggressive attitude towards the "low-hanging fruit" of both myself and wgeurts. I'm not even understanding why you would scumread both of us but townread newbie when she's also been accused of going with the flow or however you want to word it. It is like the two of you (Wisdom and yourself) are sharks smelling blood in the water because I'm not defending myself to your liking or don't post in a way you approve of or would do yourself and you won't let up. It gets tiring and I'm about ready to be done with it after this post.

I'd like you to flesh out your case on Wisdom, because as it is, it completely relies on wgeurts being town and Wisdom's votepost. Contrary to your belief, I can be swayed on this issue.

I'm not sure what you expect outside of all the posts I gave to Wisdom above. The only scumhunting I see from him is being convinced wgeurts is scum and now getting suspicious of me. He's asked questions that could come from either alignment. And is somewhat aggressively tunneling wgeurts and to a lesser extent myself. I'm not seeing a lot of town motivation behind very many of his posts. The vote he placed came immediately after wgeurts accused him of pushing his wagon from the sidelines and appeared opportunistic as there was several already on the wgeurts wagon and he jumped on. It looks to me like scum going for the easy mislynch like I've said. Frankly, I don't see the point either one of you is making on me as scum. It simply makes no sense. Sheeping? Like I've said over and over, I can not help the fact that other people have similar opinions to me. It seems completely unreasonable to hold that against me. It makes you both look pretty aggressive because I'm not as experienced at the game and frankly, it's irritating. I've already told Wisdom how I feel about being tunnelled when I am town. I don't like it.

Who would you want to lynch if not Wisdom? If your answer to the 2nd question is 'yes', who if not me/Wisdom?

Any other reads? I really don't want this town to turn into the Wisdom and Wgeurts Show; it lets people pretty much cruise by with minimal effort and just pick a side.

I'll have to answer this later when I have more time to ISO players, flesh out a reads list and post it. It's getting late now. But that will be coming. I'll probably take a day or so because I'm just getting over an illness and this took a lot out of me. I'm seriously questioning even continuing with this game as I don't like spending the majority of my time on defense over accusations that make no sense and that I can't seem to defend myself from because you two aren't going to like anything I say.

That takes all the fun out of the game for me and I can relate even more to what wgeurts was feeling.

[SilverWolf]

@acryon-tell me exactly why I am such a good lynch. So far you've said AtE and vote parity because you don't like the Wisdom wagon. Is that it so far?

[SilverWolf]

@acryon-tell me exactly why I am such a good lynch. So far you've said AtE and vote parity because you don't like the Wisdom wagon. Is that it so far?

I thought I said more than that? And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat. But I will for posterity.
-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)
-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)
-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)
-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)
-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.
-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.

TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.

So far you are just disagreeing with the points I am making and using the same old argument mathdino and Wisdom are using regarding the piggy-backing without using any real original content. I've already answered to this. You just don't like it. Where's your original content in your case above?

[SilverWolf]

@acryon-tell me exactly why I am such a good lynch. So far you've said AtE and vote parity because you don't like the Wisdom wagon. Is that it so far?

I thought I said more than that?

And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat

. But I will for posterity.
-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)
-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)
-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)
-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)
-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.
-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.

TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.

So far you are just disagreeing with the points I am making and using the same old argument mathdino and Wisdom are using regarding the piggy-backing without using any real original content. I've already answered to this. You just don't like it. Where's your original content in your case above?

Which is why I only posted the original parts in my post with the vote on you, as I mentioned in the very post you just replied to...

There was nothing original in anything you said.

[SilverWolf]

@Silverwolf

- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?

That is the reason they are giving for scumreading me. Telling me I am sheeping other ideas without providing original content. I've answered to this but it continues to be used.

So why is it a problem for me and not for them?

[SilverWolf]

@Silverwolf

- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?

That is the reason they are giving for scumreading me. Telling me I am sheeping other ideas without providing original content. I've answered to this but it continues to be used.

So why is it a problem for me and not for them?

Wrong. The reason for you is

consistent

sheeping. Scum are never usually scummy for singular actions, but for patterns.

Great. Now maybe the person I asked the question to will answer it.

[SilverWolf]

@Silverwolf

- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?

That is the reason they are giving for scumreading me. Telling me I am sheeping other ideas without providing original content. I've answered to this but it continues to be used.

So why is it a problem for me and not for them?

But there's a distinction between sheeping in general and finding the same things scummy about a player. If you ask for the scum case against anyone then the cases should overlap (in fact when they don't is when you tend to have a problem). It isn't scummy for a player to be scumreading you for reasons already mentioned, especially when multiple people have presented a case. It sort of feels like your looking for an easy thing to counterattack Acryon over.

PEdit: Acryon seems to have beaten to the punch.

PPEdit: Gees, can you wait like five seconds guys.

Except this is the exact thing I am being attacked over. Having similar reasons for scumreading someone that someone else has. It makes no sense to me.

[SilverWolf]

What is there to respond to? He doesn't agree with my comments or how I'm playing and doesn't think I'm defending myself well enough. Give me something to respond to and I will.

[SilverWolf]

Do you think Acryon is scum or misguided town Silver?

I believe it is very possible he is jumping onto a case that mathdino and Wisdom already discussed with me in detail yesterday to push it again. I'm not liking this or his aggression this game or his jumping into conversations and answering questions not directed at him. I also think some of his posts come off as forced/fake regarding trying to appear town and trying to appear to be scumhunting. It seems like it could be scum motivated.

I will give more detailed reads later and elaborate on this but I have very little interest in having the exact same discussion with acryon that I had with Wisdom and mathdino and if he has some original points, he'd like me to address, I would be willing to do so.

I have a meeting to go to in about 10 minutes so it might have to wait until later.

Reads are coming.

[SilverWolf]

Ok, here are some specifics SilverWolf.

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself.

How is that bad at all? Some people like to question players directly, and others like to present some information and poll the audience.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.

I don't actually like this argument at all. It has been abundantly clear where Wisdom's intentions were. As someone that tends to prefer questioning over voting for pressure, I can relate to this somewhat. If a wgerts lynch went through, I doubt anyone would be ignorant enough to think that Wisdom wasn't involved in getting the wagon going. Wisdom is still a null to me at this point, but I think this argument is bad.

I explained my case on Wisdom in detail last night as well as my problem with mathdino's case on me. This is not original content. What exactly do you need me to elaborate on that I have not already discussed?

Keep in mind, I may not get to this until later.

[SilverWolf]

You haven't discussed either of the posts I just quoted above with anyone.

Yes I have with both mathdino and Wisdom. If there is any further discussion on this that is not me repeating what I already said to them, let me know and I'll address it.

[SilverWolf]

*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.

For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

I answered MathDino last night when he asked me this and you'll find it in my ISO. If you have something else you want to know, ask.

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

No and Yes. I explained the problem I had with Wisdom's vote and several other posts laying out my case in detail last night. If you have a specific question, that has not been discussed already, ask.

Bottom line is, I'm not going to continue to repeat myself on issues you are bringing up that have already been discussed in detail and are not original thoughts from you. The same issue you say you are having with me.

[SilverWolf]

Sounds good to me.

[SilverWolf]

On mobile, will post as well as I can.
The wagon on Wisdom (IIRC) is mainly because he criticized wgeurts (who many think is town) and because of his weird immediate voting for wgeurts after he received from heat for not voting him. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This wagon is largely based on the argument that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. As I said before, I'm leaning towards this assumption being correct but I want more information. And so I'm basically against this wagon-the premise is wrong, and the conclusion is wrong (AKA Wisdom isn't scum). Of course, this entire thing is all based on assuming that wgeurts and Wisdom are on opposite sides. TL;DR: I think wisdom leans because I think wgeurts leans scum.

Can you please clarify this for me? You are leaning towards the assumption being correct that wgeurts is a frustrated townie but you also think he leans scum? Which one is it? I agree that wgeurts needs to get back in here and answer for himself.

You also said this in 310

But also, I like the point that Silver made about Wisdom only voted after wgeurts' argument. Again, not sure how much this affects my opinion of Silver, but the Wisdom case is getting stronger.

But now you think the wagon and reasoning behind it is wrong? What made you change your mind?

Also, I liked your 325 at first but in addition to your other posts, I can see you do a lot of recapping of events that have occurred in your posts. You are playing things safe and fencesitting on a lot of issues. Your admonishment of me for how I handled mathdino's case in 310 really was not adding anything to the conversation either. It seemed somewhat opportunistic also.

And silver is still a mystery. The arguments against her are much, much stronger than her (pretty weak) defenses. 347 was an interesting one to me. At first, it seemed like a really obvious frustrated townie post: but the recent arguments made against her (the AtE is strong with this one, and the actual defense isn't that good). I'm slowly being convinced by the arguments against her. So in order to prevent my conversion, I'd like to see a good defense by silver.

Also, my mind is pretty dead right now. Could someone explain post 385 to me? Silver wolf, are you just accepting the arguments against you or something else?

347 Was actually the way I was feeling at the time and a reaction to the tunnelling I was dealing with. I'm beyond frustrated with it for a variety of reasons. That's also why I wrote 385

What more do you need to hear from me specifically regarding a good defense that I have not already said?

[SilverWolf]

But hey, let's compromise

(this goes to everyone voting Wisdom)

. I think Wisdom is town and Silver is scummy independent of him. But I'm going to assume Wisdom is scum and try to take an objective view of this.

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

So let us come together, wgeurts-tunnelers, and Wisdom-tunnelers, lurkers and spammers, one-liner-ers and wallposters, let us come together to banish the wolf of silver hide from this town. /endrant
I'm welcome to reasonable critique of the above case, since I AM trying to put myself in a mindset that I wouldn't normally. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't discount it simply because of that.

Yes, this is exactly a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario that you've been doing to me all game. You are bound and determined to see me as scum and lynched regardless of what I say or do. There is literally nothing I can say that you aren't going to find fault with and come up with some scenario or reasoning to call it scummy. It is why I am extremely frustrated dealing with you because your sole focus has been on wguerts and when he didn't pan out, now it's on me. You are suffering from a severe case of tunnel vision and I'm tired of it.

So you changed your mind on Wisdom being town and now he's scum so you can further your multiple page continuous rant about how you are so certain I am scum? I find your dramatics here really quite amusing. Let's banish me now? You are really a piece of work.

Let's see how many more stories you can come up with. Given time, I'm sure there's a few more fantasies you can entertain us with, since you are so certain I am scum.

What are you going to do when I flip town? Who is going to be the next person you try to banish?

[SilverWolf]

But hey, let's compromise

(this goes to everyone voting Wisdom)

. I think Wisdom is town and Silver is scummy independent of him. But I'm going to assume Wisdom is scum and try to take an objective view of this.

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

This is BS. I listed the reasons I found him scummy here 301 and here 304. I indeed did mention Wisdom's vote post here 305 and responded to Newbie's post on Wisdom here after I had already made a case for him 308.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

So let us come together, wgeurts-tunnelers, and Wisdom-tunnelers, lurkers and spammers, one-liner-ers and wallposters, let us come together to banish the wolf of silver hide from this town. /endrant
I'm welcome to reasonable critique of the above case, since I AM trying to put myself in a mindset that I wouldn't normally. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't discount it simply because of that.

Really, already responded to this in my previous post and gave it all the attention it deserves.

[SilverWolf]

Also, mathdino, you might want to consider that associative tells are far more useful after a flip. Otherwise, you are just making up stories.

[SilverWolf]

Some basic reads-

Mala and N-M

-null-not enough content

Blindedmewithscience

-I would like to hear a response to my 391 before sorting him one way or the other. But that post also outlines my suspicions of him a little bit.

acryon

-despite the earlier problems I mentioned in 377, upon further review of his ISO I can see many of his posts as coming from a town mindset, so he is leaning town for now

wisdom

-explained

Newbie

-getting a newb town feel

wgeurts

-while I was pretty convinced he was newb-town, his absence from the thread for several days is making me wonder if this is correct, he needs to answer for himself

FinnLaw

-303 strike's me as very town and 253 looks town also.

mathdino

-I don't like tunnels-I can see this coming from town or scum, while his posts look detailed, effort is not indicative of alignment and he seems all too willing to give blindmewithscience a pass simply for sharing the same thought process as he does-to be determined

[SilverWolf]

Silver, you misunderstand me. I know you listed the reasons you find Wisdom scummy. But every one of those applies to me as well. So why hop on the Wisdom wagon? Is that not opportunism in itself? All 305 says is you disagree with Wisdom's vote. Well good for you. I voted wgeurts too, as did a lot of people. And then 308, as I mentioned previously, is just a repeat of what Newbie said.

Associative tells are useful after a flip, yes.
So why do you keep using them for your Wisdom case? It relies on wgeurts being town, does it not?
My point is that you being scum doesn't even rely on Wisdom's flip. It's essentially a refutation of Newbie's read on you (she thinks you're town because Wisdom is scum).

I explained why I voted for Wisdom. I'm not sure what else I can add to that. I haven't figured you out yet and that's because I hate being tunnelled and I can't be objective. So I am not going to vote for you at this time. I am wavering on wgeurts tbh due to his disappearance from the thread and if I change my read on him, I will have to revisit my Wisdom read also.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think Wisdom is scum, and I didn't change my mind. It's called a compromise. I think if Wisdom flips scum, it would very much make sense that you guys would be bussing each other, so I'm asking the Wisdom wagon to at least consider it. And no, it's not a fantasy, it's called basic logic. If A implies B, and not A implies B, then B is true. A = "Wisdom is scum". B = "SilverWolf is scum". Do the Math.

Your logic assumes we are both scum regardless of Wisdom's flip and that is a no-win situation you are putting me in like I mentioned earlier. It means any person voting for another or tunnelling another would be scum if the person they voted for flipped scum and you completely discount the fact that they could be town voting for someone they though was scum and were correct.

[SilverWolf]

Some basic reads-

Mala and N-M

-null-not enough content

Blindedmewithscience

-I would like to hear a response to my 391 before sorting him one way or the other. But that post also outlines my suspicions of him a little bit.

acryon

-despite the earlier problems I mentioned in 377, upon further review of his ISO I can see many of his posts as coming from a town mindset, so he is leaning town for now

wisdom

-explained

Newbie

-getting a newb town feel

wgeurts

-while I was pretty convinced he was newb-town, his absence from the thread for several days is making me wonder if this is correct, he needs to answer for himself

FinnLaw

-303 strike's me as very town and 253 looks town also.

mathdino

-I don't like tunnels-I can see this coming from town or scum, while his posts look detailed, effort is not indicative of alignment and he seems all too willing to give blindmewithscience a pass simply for sharing the same thought process as he does-to be determined

Oops, I was getting ready to go to bed and saw that I had VDA and TTH written down and not added to this list.

VDA-I like 213 and 356 that lean town but need to see more.

TTH-need to see more but I like 130 that looks town

OK, with that I think I've gotten everyone.

Revisiting wgeurts-181 and 182are horrible and I am wondering if scum would be so blatant about 182 but it was extremely scummy. Many of his posts in his defense of himself to mathdino I can totally relate to as are his emotional responses. 264 looks like a town post. 287 I can completely understand. 288 was scummy as hell.

Yeah, So this is a tough read. I feel he is frustrated town but some of his posts are so scummy that it's hard to ignore. Not sure here. Would like him to come back to the thread.

[SilverWolf]

I'm fencesitting because I WANT MORE INFO. I will not make a final decision until I feel that I'm informed enough to make the correct decision. And I think that I've only been fencesitting on Wisdom/wgeurts, which is dependent on more posts. And if it came down to the wire, I would vote wgeurts (for now).

About 310: I think I can see where you're coming from about being opportunistic. I think at the time, I was trying to share the information that I had recently got from you that was relevant to the discussion. But how is it not adding to the conversation? I'm pointing out how your criticism of mathdino's argument didn't respond fittingly to mathdino's post, which no one had said before.

And for a defense:

Hm, Silver, how about a full response (as in a lot more than "Sounds good to me") to acryon's arguments, as pointed out by math in 384, as you haven't responded to those yet. If you do this, I think I'll be satisfied.

I will admit I was in a bad mood when I wrote this 385 in response to 384. I'll respond to 384 in a separate post. Hold on.

[SilverWolf]

I'm fencesitting because I WANT MORE INFO. I will not make a final decision until I feel that I'm informed enough to make the correct decision. And I think that I've only been fencesitting on Wisdom/wgeurts, which is dependent on more posts. And if it came down to the wire, I would vote wgeurts (for now).

About 310: I think I can see where you're coming from about being opportunistic. I think at the time, I was trying to share the information that I had recently got from you that was relevant to the discussion. But how is it not adding to the conversation? I'm pointing out how your criticism of mathdino's argument didn't respond fittingly to mathdino's post, which no one had said before.

And for a defense:

Hm, Silver, how about a full response (as in a lot more than "Sounds good to me") to acryon's arguments, as pointed out by math in 384, as you haven't responded to those yet. If you do this, I think I'll be satisfied.

I will admit I was in a bad mood when I wrote this 385 in response to 384. I'll respond to 384 in a separate post. Hold on.

It will take too long to do this tonight and it is actually acroyn's 360. I will respond to it tomorrow. I think some of these issues have already been addressed in my recent posts but if anything hasn't, I'll do it then. It's late and I'm tired.

[SilverWolf]

Not much to say on the last bout of posts. I want to point out to Silver that I don't find voting scum scummy, and I don't find voting town scummy, it's all dependent on the context. The "Let's assume Wisdom is scum" started as a thought experiment on my part after Newbie claimed that you being town relies on Wisdom being scum.
I'm also not giving blindme a free pass because I agree with him; I have a townread on him because I find his thought process townish. You'll note that I did point out the slight buddying and IIoA, but I'm willing to discount that on account of his experience level. IIoA is fairly common for people's first few games.

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

@FinnLaw: So I'm assuming you don't like detailed/analytical?
I would attribute the apparent wishiwashiness to the fact that if I were in charge, we'd lynch wgeurts and Silver in succession. My vote is just indicative of which one I find scummier at that particular point in time, but I'd gladly vote for either, hence my willingness to switch so much. Watch me.
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf
And thanks, I look forward to it.

Of course you don't have anything to say on the last round of posts because you have decided that no matter what I say, that you are going to stick with me as scum regardless. I also find you are giving others who have contributed far less a pass for very little reasoning. And you have very little to say on the ones who have barely contributed but are expecting me to give more than I have time for right now frankly. I think there is something else going on here that is causing you to dislike me other than just looking for scum. I just haven't figured out which mindset it is coming from yet.

Your insistence that a wgeurts lynch won't happen and an insistence that mine has to now or the next day is bizarre at best. Your earlier posts linking me to Wisdom regardless of his flip means you have boxed me into a no-win situation that frankly, like I said, I don't have time to deal with.

I've already revisited wgeurts and if he continues to stay away from the thread, I am considering voting for him.

I'm not finding your entire thought process extremely difficult to figure out if it is a town or scum mindset. Your posts may be detailed but effort is not indicative of alignment as a wise person once told me.

I'm also willing to consider that scum are among those who haven't posted much or at all.

[SilverWolf]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

[SilverWolf]

Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.

I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.

I would much prefer a SilverWolf lynch, but if that can't get going then I do think wgeurts is the next best.

Revisiting wgeurts-181 and 182are horrible and I am wondering if scum would be so blatant about 182 but it was extremely scummy. Many of his posts in his defense of himself to mathdino I can totally relate to as are his emotional responses. 264 looks like a town post. 287 I can completely understand. 288 was scummy as hell.

Yeah, So this is a tough read. I feel he is frustrated town but some of his posts are so scummy that it's hard to ignore. Not sure here. Would like him to come back to the thread.

This post to me reads like an opportunity to kill the momentum on his own wagon by adding onto the existing wgeurts wagon.

Or it's the fact that I'm willing to revisit wgeurts due to his not posting here for a few days now and when I was doing my reads last night I was re-looking at his posts to see if they could come from town or scum. Frankly, I can see either with most of them.

[SilverWolf]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

I'm not sure where you come up with that idea since we have a week or more until deadline and several haven't contributed enough yet to even determine where they stand yet.

[SilverWolf]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

I'm not sure where you come up with that idea since we have a week or more until deadline and several haven't contributed enough yet to even determine where they stand yet.

386 is a good example of where the town is at generally. I think it would be hard for wgeurts to do anything even scummier than he has done so far, so I doubt new actions by him will change much of the case. At this point, you either think wgeurts' scummy actions are probably scum, or you think they are probably town. I don't think many people are truly on the fence. Either you are willing to vote the kind of play from that kind of player, or you're not at this point. That's my thoughts at least. Reading back over this, it is kind of confusing, but I'm trying to say that basically there is a small chance someone is going to "connect the dots" with wgeurts posts and crack the case wide open. It kind of is what it is at this point.

Yeah, he's said some scummy things no doubt. Some of his posts look like frustrated newbtown also. Just because I haven't committed to a vote yet and want to hear more from him, in no way means I am never going to vote for him. I would not allow a NL to happen on D1 regardless if it came to that and there's a week left.

[SilverWolf]

Yeah, I know acryon but votes can change.

@mod

-Is The Undertaker being replaced?

[SilverWolf]

Oops, never mind. I missed the mod comment in the last post count.

@mod

-disregard, sorry

[SilverWolf]

Great, I think much of what you say to me isn't necessary and unwarranted. I am at the point where I don't want to deal with you any more. Make of it what you will. RL has become a lot busier also and I just don't have the time for this any more.

[SilverWolf]

Now for my entire conclusion:
We all agree that a Wisdom/wgeurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely. While the cases against Wisdom are legitimate, the argument against wgeurts is much stronger IMO. And so I believe that Wisdom is the townie and wgeurts is scum. With Silver somewhat defending wgeurts, I could see a scumteam with her and wgeurts (but I'm still waiting for a response to my 406, as I can also see the frustrated townie in her). I'll try to add more and expand on this later: have some tests tomorrow that I'd like to study for. Probably won't check this again for another few hours.

First, How common is it for scum to blatantly defend their partners in these games knowing it will be linked back to them because I haven't seen it.

You are referring to 360 and it is inexplicably bad. Worse than mathdino's case. The AtE that everyone is bringing up is actually the frustration I was feeling. It's been elaborated on already. Most of this is him sheeping mathdino and then pulling a few more of my quotes and saying they are bad because he disagrees with my reasoning. A lot of this is me asking a question or responding to one asked of me or elaborating on a point and his criticism of it was mostly him not liking how I answer questions or points I made and this boils down to his opinion that they didn't add anything when clearly they did. One of the posts was me answering a question and he even found fault with that. He also had a problem with a question I asked of him, like me asking questions is somehow wrong also. Basically he's finding fault with the majority of my posts for no real reason.

He is just repeating mathdino's criticism and it is unwarranted. Further proof of this is what he put at the end of that post. He is attributing 247 to me and saying it has no original content when I didn't even make that post. That was a post by Newbie. So when he's searching for anything he can find to build a case, however weak, he pulls this post from Newbie and attributes it to me but says nothing to her about it. This just proves, that he is reaching and stretching to build a case that has no merit.

[SilverWolf]

Wge would have to be really ballsy scum and be confident that his partners are good at playing scum to intentionally mason fish in thread.

Wisdom and wge will not be scum together. I could see Silver scum.

Is it really bad that I keep confusing TTH & BWMS' posts as one player.

Anyways townreads in no order {Mathdino, Finnlaw, TTH, BWMS} leaning town {N_M & Wge}

Wisdom explain why I should be townreading you?

N_M has barely posted any content so why is that a town lean?

4 posts, 2 explaining low activity and going V/LA.

The other two are these 61 and 72 which shows a question to someone and one post giving his opinion on wgeurts.

[SilverWolf]

Thank You Reinoe!! See you all again in a future game when RL has settled down!!