Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: Mathdino

A maths loving dinosaur, that sounds very suspicious.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Mod I am not listed in the alive players

Then you're obviously dead. Stop Posting!

[VictorDeAngelo]

But I'm not in the dead players either.

Hey Wisdom did you check at the top of the list.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

I think it's fine. Especially with someone who seems to be new, it's nice to get a feel for how they play so you don't end up just writing off the things they do as "newbie".

Thanks Mathdino that's what I wanted to.....hold up a sec. Your not Mathdino.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor: So that way when I inevitably ISO Newbie I'll have a meta to compare to. I don't want to bother waiting until Newbie's got a wagon on (him? her?) to skim a meta.

Mathdino, can you give me a quick rundown of who else in this game have you played with before?

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

You missed the more obvious answer.

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.

That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon. I highly doubt that me asking a question about why someone wanted meta will have others quaking in their boots to question for meta. And this doesn't really answer why you couldn't just wait to see how Mathdino responded.

I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.

Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible?

Lots. The question was open ended and I even got a interesting reaction off Acryon to boot. I'm mostly curious as to why Newbie's meta was more valuable to you than others.

I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting?

Fun fact, I often ask question I don't know the answer to.

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.

I didn't question why he wanted information, I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference.

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Why?

It leads to a party where there's Jelly and ice cream - want some?

[VictorDeAngelo]

EBWODP: Missed a bit

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?

Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it.

But why the need to state it's a reaction test. I mean everyone went around labelling votes (reaction test) or (not reaction test) then it would be just silly.

Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?

Did I miss a question or something?

Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.

Huh, I thought there was something specific about 55. You don't really need to specifically mention just to say I saw but I don't comment.

Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?

Questioning is scumhunting, and I have my methods.

EBWODP: Missed a bit

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?

Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?

You don't think players should claim serious votes as such?

No, not really. If you want to give reasons, you give reasons.

What are you trying to achieve questioning that?

If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving.

[VictorDeAngelo]

The "Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you" was referring to the general question of "How is wgeurys scummy?"

Oh OK.

And yes, I have to label when I wrote stuff for the same reason you write the dates in citations: context is important, and info may be outdated. I found in my first game that when I polish my posts too much or rewrite them, it looks unnatural. So now I don't delete stuff I say.

Hmmm. OK. I would say you don't have to do that per say, despite what happened in Mafia with a twist. It actually looks scummy for a player to overexplain/cite particularly if they don't normally do it when their town (which you don't appear to).

And I said it wasn't a test because I just don't do tests. I wanted to make it clear that I had actual reasons for voting you so you wouldn't want to shrug it off on account of possibly being a test.

Tests are fun and sometimes valuable. But OK, if it's not a test you could just, you know, say nothing.

Here's the thing though, man: Why are you questioning me 3 or 4 times instead of your vote, wgeurys?

I'm enjoying questioning, and at this precise moment in time I don't wish to question wgeurys.

What's your read on me?

I'm still trying to figure that out. You've done a fair few odd things; asking prematurely for Newbie's meta; overexplaining your actions but something you said this post has made me wonder if I am wrong on my reasons for one of those things. I'm going to say null.

[VictorDeAngelo]

My days are a little in flux right now so I will posting when I can. Technically I could say I'm vla but really I doubt I'm going to be gone more than 24 hours.

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

I'm not sure what the problem is. I would think getting meta would be sharing useful information. I intend to look at meta of the players here. So even though you said you wanted to know why mathdino wanted that particular info. I guess I fail to see the problem with this and your explanation really didn't help me much. You are making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone. It's possible you just want to question Mathdino like you said, but this seems an odd thing to question him about. This is something else I am taking note of. FoS VictorDeAngelo

So do a lot of players, but I was wondering why he was looking to get meta off that player so early on. Often people looking for meta in the first few pages would have a particular reason, and I wanted to know his.

Mala looks pretty damn townie off her opening posts. I think I should be able to metaread you fairly well now, so I last long enough I will see if your scum.

I don't like Wguerts 105. This post doesn't fit the play at all.

Nor do I like Wisdom's 108 - particularly since he accused me of reaching and asking loaded questions earlier.

I like both the vote and point from Newbie in 124.

Awful rvs in 127.

@TTH are you really implying in 130 it's a waste time asking for reasoning because if a player is scum they will simply lie or have I misread that?

132 & 134 (this should really be one post anyhow ) Asks to meta read to help players understand his style and then tells everyone to ignore Newbie's meta because "the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it."

If Wguerts is scum I can see Silverwolf being scum with him for 135.

Is the reason this game is so many pages because wgeurts is multiposting. Actually wgeuers and Newbie. Any chance we can keep it to one post at a time folks?

Blindmewithscience is sitting back too much with this post. Especially considering it's his only one outside of rvs.

I still like my vote on Wguerts, but I really wish I had a second one for blindmewithscience. Not too sure on anyone else right now. A few players on the list need to show still so we'll see.

And like that - I am gone.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Wisdom, TTH was directly questioned about you and N_M so it's a little rich going after her for discussing you with other players and it's also unfair to accuse a player voting you of not engaging. As for your question, it was far more of a loaded question than the one I asked earlier which you accused of being loaded.

PEdit: Sorry Math, I'm a tad rushed and meant to go back and add post tags. Cheers for helping me out.

[VictorDeAngelo]

so, yeah you should ignore meta in general. Even the wiki says 9 times out of 10 it's wrong. Meta is the worst thing to use as a case.

Uh, isn't this at odds with your own argument for yourself?

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

You're basically saying that Meta is bad, after you tell others to look at your meta (which according to you, is "the worst thing to use as a case".

And if you're critical of meta, why didn't you say anything when people were asking for Newbie's meta? This isn't logical at all.

I'm seeing a lot of inconsistency, and so I'm going to
VOTE: wgeurts

only

to add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations, as IMO, your statements responding to him previously were pretty weak. (Also, what I've posted about him is pretty small in comparison with the larger arguments).

Also, when you make posts, PLEASE make them more than one-line posts (or ones that are irrelevant). They make reading through a ton harder to do.

So blindmescience, do you think Wgeurtes is scum? Why do you care about him creating a good defence?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I can recall times I self voted in frustration as town, but to be honest this doesn't feel the same. Particularly considering how early it is (in fact one slot still hasn't posted yet) so it's pretty anti-town to be pushing towards the end of the day with your own lynch. Still happy with my vote on Wgeurts.

Also, wegeurts, there is only 4 votes out of 7 on you without your self-vote. So help me figure out who the scum is on your wagon if you are town?

wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience (L-3)

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure mathdino is town. Newbie leans town to me so far. So, is it VDA or blindmewithscience do you think and why?

Or is wagon analysis bad right now in the game without a flip?

Yeah, wagon analyse is generally useless preflip. And if your interested in wagon analysis why not wait for more people to join the wagon? Wouldn't this have been the point where opportunistic scum would have been jumping on?

VDA started the wagon and has since then done little to nothing to help it. He has done so little scum hunting I imagine he is just sitting back and enjoying the chaos I partially caused.

What exactly was I meant to do to help the wagon? Particularly since it took me putting little pressure on you for you to start to crack?

In fact after 279, I don't think I will be shifting my vote today.

There should be no masons claim at this point. I think that much was obvious.

Not sure what to make of Wisdom here, his play would be odd if he is Wguertes buddy so I want to put him on the backburner right now. I like Finn's questions to him and I like TTH's recent posting as well.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Everyone

: Who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts or Wisdom? What are your thoughts on SilverWolf? (free pass on sheeping the above case; I think I kinda exhausted everything that can be said about her)

I can see Silverwolf as scum if Wgeurtes flips scum. But I'd rather lynch Wguertes first.

301 - Furthermore if Wisdom is town, I'm can see Silverwolf being scum after reading this.

302 - Sure newbscum would do this. Particular since the scum don't have daychat so Wgeuertes has not had any opportunity to talk with his scumbuddies yet.

310 - Ok, I can totally see blindmewithscience as scum with Wgeurtes after this post. If Wgeurtes flips scum then he should be tomorrows flip. And if it is Wguetes + blindmewithscience then it's probably means it's not Silverwolf based on the second half of this post.

325 - So you now want to wait and see more from Wgeurtes before making a decsion, but you were happily on his wagon a couple of days ago. I also don't like the way he's trying to band people together.

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup.

That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.

@Reinoe

- Any news on the Undertaker's replacement yet?

[VictorDeAngelo]

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup. ?

And I obviously wasn't referring to him actually being a jester. I know the set-up of this game and I had never heard of a jester so I didn't even know that was a thing. I was more of commenting on the complete silliness of his play, because it almost seems like he wants to be lynched because of how bad some of the stuff he is saying is. It's just so hard for me to believe that someone who is actually scum could be saying things that were that scummy. That kind of player is almost always town in my experience, but at the same time, when the slot of scum it makes you feel like an idiot for not lynching them much earlier.

I don't really like the whole too scummy to be scum argument. It assumes that scum are always experienced and competent and yet townies will derp around and make bad plays.

I am pretty confident wgeurts is town, but that is purely based on my experience with players that are playing like he does. That's probably stupid play on my part, but it's kind of hard to ignore my gut, at least this early in the game when it's the main thing I have to work from. SilverWolf definitely seems like a much better lynch to me, but a wgeruts lynch could possibly give us some good information, especially if he does happen to flip scum. But I don't exactly like the idea of lynching based on that.

What's wrong with lynching for information? Day 1 lynches tend to be the least important in terms of actually catching scum and often simply lynching a scummy player is good play. If Wguertes is town then he is playing badly, he's claimed vt (so if we leave him alive then scum have one less target when hunting masons) and he will always be a question mark going forward (since there's no way of clearing players).

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Acryon

- Let me put it this way, other than silverwolf, how many players in the game right now would you say are scummier than Wgeurtes (I don't need a list of names just a rough number)?

@Silverwolf

- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Silverwolf

- Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?

That is the reason they are giving for scumreading me. Telling me I am sheeping other ideas without providing original content. I've answered to this but it continues to be used.

So why is it a problem for me and not for them?

But there's a distinction between sheeping in general and finding the same things scummy about a player. If you ask for the scum case against anyone then the cases should overlap (in fact when they don't is when you tend to have a problem). It isn't scummy for a player to be scumreading you for reasons already mentioned, especially when multiple people have presented a case. It sort of feels like your looking for an easy thing to counterattack Acryon over.

PEdit: Acryon seems to have beaten to the punch.

PPEdit: Gees, can you wait like five seconds guys.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Part of the case against you is lack of orginality, but it's not the entirety of the case. What's your response to the points in Acryon's case that don't relate to you sheeping?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Do you think Acryon is scum or misguided town Silver?

[VictorDeAngelo]

ptap - Will either post tomorrow or I won't be able to post til Monday.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Back but tired and kinda pissed. Will read up my games in due course. Sorry for the delay.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I would read up but it appears that people want to lynch me instead. Which does save me some time. Is there an intent to hammer?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Otherwise I could read up and post some reads but I could really use the time on my other games.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I should have reads by the morning, still need to look over the Riddlestone/Constantine slot and my body thinks it's later than it is (thanks daylight savings). Full reread should be no later than early morning since I don't have much on at work right now (the one solitary benefit of jury service).