Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[Riddleton]

Because I want to trust my gut instinct, not my paranoia. I think you are more likely scum than the other person, hence why I am focusing on you. I don't think you will flip town hence why I don't think it's relevant at the moment. I may say later though, if it's the right time. But not now.

The right time is before the end of the day, along with the basic gist of why.

Of course, GC.

[Green Crayons]

Well you made it sound like you might hold off until tomorrow.

[acryon]

@Farside
You still think I am scum? Can you break-down why WITH quotes, because in the past it has been based on feelings or interactions that didn't actually happen the way you remembered. I want to be sure this gets taken care of so I don't have to worry about convincing you later when we have a wagon on scum going.

[Baezu]

Vote Count 4.02

acryon: (2) Farside22, Titus
Curiouskarmadog : (2) Riddleton, Green Crayons

Not Voting: acryon, Curiouskarmadog , ChannelDelibird, Amy Farrah Fowler

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-11-04 19:32:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[Riddleton]

Hm. I'm reading things through.. and I'm not sure if I can see CKD as scum anymore.


UNVOTE:


I'll go back to my other suspect now. I just want to see if I'm right with this and not being completely paranoid.

[ChannelDelibird]

Back from trip. Am going through Day 1 to pick out all interactions involving flipped scum to see what we can glean. Might take longer than I have time to read&post this evening but up tomorrow if not.

[Titus]

Work taking longer than expected. VCA notes at home. Will type tonight.

Acryon still scum.

[Green Crayons]

Green Crayons

, why farside over Amy?

Briefly, because I don't have the time to make a thorough case:

- Looking over Amy's interaction with scrambles' slot, she doesn't really come across as a scum partner. I think Blonde's softball questions to her are iffy, but that doesn't necessarily reflect suspicion on Amy as it can easily be chalked up to Blonde just trying to look engaged. Amy's sudden break of communication with the slot as soon as scrambles replaced in is weird, but goes further to show that it was Blonde that was pushing for a connection with Amy, rather than the other way around. Thus, out of Amy v. farside, Amy looks good.

- I really don't like Beli's hard push against farside out of the gate. If that's all there was to the situation, then whatever, fine. But it was a hard push against someone attacking his scummate Blonde, on what farside hadn't exactly claimed was a basis to lynch Blonde, just a basis for an early D1 vote. It's just a very weird situation, and one that doesn't sit comfortably with me.

- Even recognizing the fact that farside has had IRL issues, farside has used a lot of her activity simply being "catchup" posts. These look active, but they're not necessarily big on engagement -- it's much easier to look productive without gaining much suspicion by commenting on something that has already passed out of the thread's collective consciousness. I have seen scum use this tactic in recent games that I have played.

- farside is also just difficult to read for me, which makes me inherently suspicious of her play.

I want to add the following:

My vote on scramble is for 2 reasons, 1) no one else is voting acryon (2)deadline is coming up in a few hours and a no lynch is not helpful.

This comment is suspicious for two reasons.


(1) farside, like myself, was under the misconception that a failure to get a majority at the time of the deadline would result in a no lynch. (CKD pointed out my misconception of the actual rule at the beginning of today.) Therefore, farside-scum would be under the impression that her vote would actually contribute to scrambles' lynch (it wouldn't, because scrambles already had the most votes on him, and it didn't look like CDB was going to be surpassing scrambles' vote count per Post 1625).

farside had adamently refused to vote Beli on D1 and D2 -- even though Beli had pursued farside with an unnatural conviction and self-cetainty, and with a case that farside has herself said was really bad -- and so has been lacking in town cred. One way to up her cred would be to join the wagon on the sinking ship of a scummate. Hence, the late vote on the scrambles wagon.


(2) farside had commented extensively about her suspicions of scrambles. See: Post 1065, Post 1071, Post 1262, Post 1309, Post 1345, Post 1346, Post 1353, and Post 1419.

Despite this lengthy love affair with suspecting scrambles, farside failed to put a vote down on scrambles until the deadline was hours away.

But here's what really bothers me: in Post 1640, farside justifies her late-wagon vote on scrambles because nobody else would vote acryon, and the deadline was approaching. . . . Really, that's it? Absolutely

nothing

from the 8 posts where she voiced or agreed with scrambles suspicions contributed to her scrambles vote?

I was trying to think why a farside wouldn't at least point to her previous scrambles suspicions, regardless of farside's alignment. Then it hit me: farside had completely disowned her scrambles suspicions based solely off of scrambles' response under pressure (see Post 1396 and Post 1451).

I personally experienced a similar – but not identical – reaction. I also had doubts about my scrambles vote after scrambles' response, but was talking my way through it and actually revoted scrambles after he did another scummy thing. (Yes, I also then unvoted again, based off of perpetual self-doubt, but once again, I was open about trying to work through my stance.)

farside, however, did none of this. She was flirting with a scrambles vote, and then killed her scrambles suspicions completely in one fell swoop. It would look contradictory and messy if farside were to suddenly revive those suspicions hours before the deadline – a deadline farside thought meant would spell a no lynch if she didn't join the scrambles wagon. Scum don't want to look contradictory and messy. Hence, farside's avoidance of her previous scrambles suspicions when justifying her late-wagon scrambles vote makes her vote clean and simple -- but also artifically detatched from the actual history of the game. Thus, the basis for farside's vote on scrambles appears to originate from a scum alignment.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

GC, you get a sheep, congrats.

Vote: farside

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Okay, not exactly a sheep, but I like your reasoning for farside.

[farside22]

Mod: v/la till Tuesday 10/28

[Green Crayons]

Mod: v/la till Tuesday 10/28

If I told you the number of times I have attacked a scum player just to see them lurk like a fiend while people fought or lurk in general in hopes someone else would do something scummy I think I would be physically ill to my stomach at how often it occurs.

[Riddleton]

Are you really trying to misconstrue farside's V/LA as scummy?

[curiouskarmadog]

But here's what really bothers me: in Post 1640, farside justifies her late-wagon vote on scrambles because nobody else would vote acryon, and the deadline was approaching. . . . Really, that's it? Absolutely

nothing

from the 8 posts where she voiced or agreed with scrambles suspicions contributed to her scrambles vote?

Okay, well here is my problem with this. This would make her look scummy IF scrambles flipped town. IF she was scum with scrambles and was under the impression that a no lynch occurred if the majority was not reached, wouldn’t it have just made since to stick to her acroyn vote? No one would have been none the wiser. OR if she wanted to get some town cred, would farsidescum, suddenly find something she didnt like about scrambles and vote him instead providing the excuse of "I will vote him if I have to"?

Okay, not exactly a sheep, but I like your reasoning for farside.

what in particular did you like about his farside case? Why do you feel like farside is scum?

and...it should be noted, his vote is on me, not farside. Do you agree with his case on me? Why or why not?

[curiouskarmadog]

Mod: v/la till Tuesday 10/28

If I told you the number of times I have attacked a scum player just to see them lurk like a fiend while people fought or lurk in general in hopes someone else would do something scummy I think I would be physically ill to my stomach at how often it occurs.

curious, did you bother to check to see if she posted this in all of her games before posting this?

why or why not?

[Riddleton]

She has posted that in all her games, by the way. It makes no sense for one to "strategically" V/LA from one game but be active in all others. It's easily checkable.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mod: v/la till Tuesday 10/28

If I told you the number of times I have attacked a scum player just to see them lurk like a fiend while people fought or lurk in general in hopes someone else would do something scummy I think I would be physically ill to my stomach at how often it occurs.

You're better than this, GC.

[Riddleton]

With CKD being null-ish for me at the moment, my vote lies here:

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Green Crayons]

(shrug)

I didn't check to see what farside is doing in other games. It's just another example of when I've seen her point out scum behavior that would point to her being scum.

Example:

I still think scum bel would vote his scum buddy for town credit.

I also think looking at those that beli didn't interact with would be good. I notice if not bussing, scum typically avoid interaction with scum buddy.

VOTE: farside22

That is not a random vote.

Still liking CKD, farside, and AFF for scum, in that order.

[Green Crayons]

You're better than this, GC.

This implies that I'm somehow playing quick and loose. See above for why that is incorrect.

Also, you've ignored everything else I've said about farside. You're better than this, CDB.

[Green Crayons]

Are you really trying to misconstrue farside's V/LA as scummy?

See Post 1768. See also:

- Even recognizing the fact that farside has had IRL issues, farside has used a lot of her activity simply being "catchup" posts. These look active, but they're not necessarily big on engagement -- it's much easier to look productive without gaining much suspicion by commenting on something that has already passed out of the thread's collective consciousness. I have seen scum use this tactic in recent games that I have played.

Ten bucks says she will be doing another catch up post.

I'm not saying her V/LA is fabricated. I'm saying that going absent and then coming back with a serious of catch up posts -- and this is her habitual play this game, not a one-time event -- is aligned with scum play.


Want to try to justify your vote on me?

[Green Crayons]

But here's what really bothers me: in Post 1640, farside justifies her late-wagon vote on scrambles because nobody else would vote acryon, and the deadline was approaching. . . . Really, that's it? Absolutely

nothing

from the 8 posts where she voiced or agreed with scrambles suspicions contributed to her scrambles vote?

Okay, well here is my problem with this. This would make her look scummy IF scrambles flipped town. IF she was scum with scrambles and was under the impression that a no lynch occurred if the majority was not reached, wouldn’t it have just made since to stick to her acroyn vote? No one would have been none the wiser. OR if she wanted to get some town cred, would farsidescum, suddenly find something she didnt like about scrambles and vote him instead providing the excuse of "I will vote him if I have to"?

Yeah, that would be one way to be suspicious of her play if scrambles flipped town. But scrambles didn't flip town, he flipped scum.

So I was trying to think of a reason why farside-town

wouldn't

mention the suspicions she independently voiced or agreed with in eight other posts as a justification for her vote. Not even to say "yeah I know I had these suspicions, but even now I'm not too sure of them." Just completely absent from her justifying her scrambles vote.

I couldn't come up with anything why farside-town would do that. Can you?

[Green Crayons]

^^^ To further expound why farside-town

would

want to mention her previous suspicions of scrambles: farside thought that without a majority, there would be a no lynch. No lynches are obviously not good for the town. You would therefore want to persuade others to vote for the candidate you believe has the best chance to reach a majority vote hours before the deadline --

even if

you're simply attempting to avoid a no lynch. One way to help persuade others would be to mention all the suspicions you have previously posted about the player you think is best able to reach a majority vote.

farside didn't do that.

Even worse, CKD prompted her to mention all of her scrambles suspicions in this post, hours before the deadline:

Well my vote seems to go no where and the cbd "case" is pretty lacking.

Vote: scrambles

so why vote here?

was there a case you saw (ie didnt skim over) you thought was good?

farside posted again before the deadline (Post 1640), but ignored this opportunity to help bolster a scrambles vote.

UNVOTE: CKD
VOTE: farside

[Riddleton]

Royal Ape

1) #141 really just says absolutely nothing. Does nothing but point out the obvious by saying "I prefer real reasoning, and not arbitrary reasoning". Gives the impression of 'activity' but accomplishes nothing; so I don't like seemingly obvious/vague posts like this.

2) #144 and #145 are really on-the-fence regarding Skelda. This is the first time we see RoyalApe fence-sitting, and he does this a lot. He claims here that "Skelda's towntell on NJ wasn't valid, ergo scummy", but later says in the next post "But the rest of his ISO is good. He's null!". Following up on this, I find it strange how he talks about saying "I've no reads/no idea" is null-scum behaviour, but he does this himself in #158.

3) Speaking of the above, RoyalApe's play is very cautious, similar to that I'd expect of newbie scum. An example of this is how scarce RoyalApe is with his voting; he fence-sits a lot and says people "might be scummy", but actually only votes for Skelda (not counting RVS votes) in 32 posts from #73 to #748. Acryon's criticism of his play in this post is valid, and RoyalApe dismisses it as 'Oh, cool that's a neat term I'm not familiar with', not responding to any accusations.

4) #189 is basically "Whoooooppps, I'm still on my RVS vote, but I don't want to admit that". I don't like how, if he was scum, casually unvotes his buddy saying "I think he's town". I should point out it's common scum behaviour to vote their buddies in RVS. It doesn't get much suspicion from other townies, as the 'interactions' between them can be faked. In this post, we also see RA categorise people as either 'townie ISOs' or 'Null ISOs for lack of content'. Why did he forget to mention his buddy, Beli in this list? Beli's content was questionable and a big heap of WiFOM. Why is that not 'Null' or 'Scummy' by his definitions?

5) Attacks NJ's reasoning for voting for RA in #202 as 'Silly' and 'We're not in RVS anymore'. Gives a justification that 'XYZ reason is great, but your reason is crap, I don't accept your vote', which doesn't sit well with me at all. RoyalApe later backs down from this stance, after NJ questioned him, by saying "I didn't think it was exactly scummy, per se....", starting again with the defensive play.

6) Starts a useless line of interrogation with Amy in #204, midly suggesting that 'Counting votes yourself is scummy'. When Skelda questions this, RoyalApe responds in #214, with another very defensive post, saying that 'It's not useless until we find out', which reads as sort of desperate to me. My theory is that RoyalApe is trying to pursue Amy of Beli onto a mislynch like Skelda (which he does later). At least with CKD, it's that he thinks Beli was town, and not dragging all votes away from the slot.

7) Basically fence-sits the way through with Beli, questioning others reads with him in posts like #317, but not actually having a solid opinion on him. Never once in his ISO does he state he thinks Beli to be town or scum. Tries to divert focus away from Beli in this post saying we should be focusing on 'EVERYONE!' and not just two suspects, which reads as desperate scum trying to get attention away from his buddy.



My main issues w/ GC next.

[Riddleton]

Are you really trying to misconstrue farside's V/LA as scummy?

See Post 1768. See also:

Nope. I don't buy your case on farside. I think she's town.

- Even recognizing the fact that farside has had IRL issues, farside has used a lot of her activity simply being "catchup" posts. These look active, but they're not necessarily big on engagement -- it's much easier to look productive without gaining much suspicion by commenting on something that has already passed out of the thread's collective consciousness. I have seen scum use this tactic in recent games that I have played.

Ten bucks says she will be doing another catch up post.

Of course it's going to be a catchup post. If I'm going away for 4 days, then yes, there will be posts I miss.