Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Not_Mafia]

Busy until deadline, will try my hardest to catch up in the night, It sucks to push someone on V/LA but at the same time we can't not lynch someone because of V/LA and if the wagon dismantles it might become non-viable as we approach deadline.

[Riddleton]

MathDino, have you had time to analysise my Victor case in more detail yet? If so, thoughts?

[Riddleton]

The fence sitters should vote Victor already and not make excuses about V/LA.

[Malakittens]

I'm not liking the fact he's not here to defend himself and those who are pushing his lynch feel like overeager scumbags and should stop. I want reactions.

[Malakittens]

I mean we still have two days and his VLA ends today so good god calm the hell down

[Riddleton]

Right, but what if he's not here before DL? Would you rather a no lynch than a lynch of someone who's obvious scum?

[Riddleton]

so good god calm the hell down

Hm? How was my post vitriolic in any way?

[Riddleton]

his VLA ends today

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA

[Malakittens]

Look at activity overview.

I'd lynch him before a no lynch, but I still want him to respond. So again I'm asking you nicely to back off and see if he responds.

[Riddleton]

You sound very hesitant to lynch someone you scumread

[Riddleton]

Alright, fair point about the V/LA. The mod has it down as 'unspecified' which is why I didn't want to hang around forever waiting, and then he never turns up.

[Malakittens]

Will you stop misrepping me.

Do you enjoy kicking people when they are down? That's the equivalent of lynching someone before they have a chance to speak.

Why are you in such a rush to lynch him before he can give out thoughts or EVEN CLAIM FOR THAT MATTER.

Go be scummy elsewhere.

[wgeurts]

Prod accepted.

[Wisdom]

Here are actual scum tells
- Saying what "Scum" would do a lot
- When tunneled, responding back with questions and not statements
- Voting one way but reading another
- Compensating with Large Blocks of Text (This is called domination)
- Lurking

None of these are scumtells
There are actually no definite scumtells. It depends on the players and the circumstances.

[Wisdom]

@TTH I think she's town, I'm satisfied with her responses and other recent posts. I also feel better about you.

[Wisdom]

Victor feels like lynchbait right now, so I'm not voting him until I've heard from him.

[Mathdino]

Sorry for putting you on hold Riddleton but I wanted to address some of Newbie's analysis first.

On the other hand, the way that he went after Silverwolf did feel just a bit opportunistic. Point #2 of that entire post seems like reaching if acryon was referring to SW trying to get the wagon off of herself. Also, I don't like how he shares that he heavily thinks wgeurts is town but would still be alright with him getting lynched, even though that's not something he would prefer. Looking at it from a scum perspective, it would allow acryon to be okay with a townie getting lynched while being able to fall back on "well, I did say I didn't like the idea of voting him in the first place."

Understand that even a D1 random lynch is better than a no lynch because it gains information, and a policy lynch is certainly better than NL. The lynch is the only power town has. Better use it.

SilverWolf: I can see people's points about her earlier posts mostly agreeing with other people's reasonings, but she did add a bit more her insight into things. ex. (I think she was even actually the first one to specifically mention a slayer's gambit), ex., ex., ex., ex..

On the other hand, her defense against mathdino, acryon, and Wisdom didn't come off too well. Who knows, maybe SW is just an emotional person, but it did not look good for her.

This pinged me; I can't say I'm comfortable with this part of the post. This read seems much more IIOA and summary than any sort of analysis, and really comes across to me as fencesitting. At any point you can make a stance on SilverWolf and it'd still be consistent with this post. Do you

have

a read on her, Newbie?

Here's my other issue with your post, Newbie. You're on the fence with literally almost everyone in this game, it's mostly just "this is a good point, this is a not-so-good point" but I got nothing out of reading that, not even where you stand, which defeats the purpose of reads list. Furthermore I'm not even convinced by anything you've said since you don't have a stance to really argue for. There's MORE than enough information in this game to come up with something but I'm not even sure who you'd be for or against lynching, and we're nearing deadline fast.

Here's another question, since you apparently liked the post where I asked something like this. Who are your top 2 candidates for lynching (outside of policy)? What other suspicions were you talking about here?

Addendum because I don't feel like putting it above: I have a fleeting suspicion that Newbie went with this reads list because she felt compelled to in order to be active and provide thoughts, not because it really helps scumhunt. Reading through her ISO gives me a definite feel of fencesittiness on anyone that she's not currently voting on.
Since we're nearing deadline I'm not going to push a Newbie lynch (and I still have to look over Victor) but I think this stuff should be kept in mind just in case. Very much beginning to rethink my read on her in light of Silver's meta and what people are reading off her AtE stuff.
Oh, yeah,

FoS: her

.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Riddleton's case

At this stage in the game, I townread Wgeurts, Newbie, Constantine and MathDino. Leaning scum on VictorDeAngelo and MalaKittens.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

---

Victor

a) First off, we see Victor is quite persistent that people answer their own questions. The conversation between Victor and Acryon here, especially considering the sarcastic tone of the post, comes off as extremely awkward and strange to me. His defensive tone in this post this post is unwarranted, as he was under no suspicion whatsoever at the time.

b) The post on here reads as Victor trying to easily slide on the low-hanging fruit by voting wgeurts. The vote isn't pressure, but yet he doesn't provide any reasoning to back up his wgeurts vote. I don't like how he pushes a wagon by saying "All Aboard" without providing any reasoning for it. In this post, he outright refuses to provide reasoning, instead just posting fluff that the wagon will lead to 'Jelly and Ice Cream'. He later implies the vote was just a reaction test, which makes no sense whatsoever, and just looks like scum trying to back down from suspicion.

c) Post #65 also takes on a hyper-defensive tone, too. Points such as "I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference." are devoid of emotion and unlike, more sarcastic and joke-y, earlier play. The comment, 'That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon.', tries to passively shoot down Acryon's disapproval of Victor's play. Post #73 and #80 takes on a similar hyper-defensive tone, also, and continue the trend of one-line replies to humongous quotes, to give the false impression of activity whereas there's very little content in Victor's posts. In #80, as linked, he still refuses to interact with wgeurts.

d) Quite a bit of IIOA in here citing meaningless replies to genuine questions and issues. Posts such as 'I don't like #thispost', etc, are not helpful to the gamestate and are usually seen by scum trying to fit-in to the town, without participating much content. We see Victor declaring Mala, my other main scum suspect, as 'town because of opening posts'. What makes you think this? Can you explain in more detail?

e) In the same post, he still hasn't explained his initial wgeurts vote. Nice try with trying to say 'I don't like Wguerts 105. This post doesn't fit the play at all.', but you voted Wgeurts in #53. Obviously, something else has fuelled your reasoning for voting wgeurts, and I don't like you're trying to subtly imply that was your reasoning, especially since the post was made after you voted him in the first place. My theory is he made the wgeurts vote, and just bullshitted his way through it, inventing new reasoning for sticking with it in posts like this. It's a bit of cognitive dissonance. He never has, and I don't think he ever will, explain his

original

reasoning for voting him.

In a nutshell:
-Hyper-defensive play which I don't like
-Dodges his original wgeurts vote, cognitive dissonance with trying to believe it's still a viable wagon by inventing new reasoning for it 'oh this is scummy, yeah wgeurts is scum'. Spoiler alert: wgeurts isn't scum.
-Never really provides any content. His ISO is 90% bullshit.

a (Riddleton discusses Victor's early game). I can't really disagree with this since this is why I suspected Victor was scummy in the first place. I want to note though that sarcasm is not a scumtell.

b (Riddleton discusses Victor voting wgeurts). Here's the problem with this part of your post, Riddleton. Shifty actions and scummy actions are not the same thing. A LOT of people have been shifty this game about explaining some reads and votes. But where's the scum motivation? wgeurts hadn't yet done anything to even warrant voting, so the low-hanging fruit argument doesn't make sense. Why would anyone join him on the wagon unless they wanted to appear scum?
Understand that I don't claim to know Victor's town-motivation here, and I absolutely want him to come back and answer for himself, but the issue is I don't see why scum would pull a move like that in an attempt to actually get wgeurts or any townie lynched.

c (Riddleton discusses wgeurts emotionless hyper-defenciveness). Dammit man, you're running into the same issue. Why would scum go after 'low-hanging fruit' and then refuse to interact with them? If you want to go after players it's easy to get a reaction out of, wouldn't you want to confront them head-on like the entire town did earlier?
However, I can agree with the defenciveness, but just a quick skim of Victor's meta shows that his posting style is a nulltell for him. He does the annoying 'one line response to huge quotes' as scum and town. Are some of his posts useless? Yes. Are they annoying to interact with? Yes. Scum? I'm not sold on this point at all.

d (Riddleton discusses Victor's IIoA). I don't understand how you view that post as BS or not contributing. He at the very least discusses blindmewithscience with a different perspective. I won't answer for him when it comes to Mala, however, but this post comes across to me as town trying to keep up with the game and consolidating thoughts so far. Which is basically like how blindme's been playing.

e (Riddleton discusses Victor's wgeurts vote). I hate to say this Riddleton but it looks like you're pulling a potential Victor story out of your ass. You assume that because Victor posted things he didn't like about wgeurts in his catchup post, he's trying to justify a vote several pages prior. Isn't it possible that wgeurts was just the scummiest damn player in the game at that point? I mean literally the only reason I'm backing off of him is because there's no way wgeurts is faking newbtown across the entire site.

In a nutshell:
-His play is a nulltell based on a quick skim of his meta
-Yes. He dodged. But get in his mind. What was scum-Victor's original plan, do you think? You seem to have more of a theory on how he covered up the initial vote than the vote itself.
-"His ISO is 90% bullshit" <-- This is simply not true. I know Riddleton already did but I'm asking other players to look through his ISO, and tell me if the 2nd half really looks like bullshit.

That said. I want Victor to answer, because I'm not sure myself of the town motivation of his original wgeurts vote. Victor is a nullread until he answers. However, I honestly think that and his tone in his first 4 or so posts are the only legitimate parts of Riddleton's case.

My vote stands.

[Mathdino]

Here are actual scum tells
- Saying what "Scum" would do a lot
- When tunneled, responding back with questions and not statements
- Voting one way but reading another
- Compensating with Large Blocks of Text (This is called domination)
- Lurking

- Nope, people do that all the time as newbtown, I think I almost got lynched for it once.
- Playstyle.
- Agreed.
- Playstyle. I'm just going to hope you never play with mastin.
- Nope.

I find this all VERY interesting considering this post you made earlier, Constantine. I also appreciate how you already ruled out contradictions as a scumtell right before contradicting yourself. To those too lazy to click the link, Constantine says that "many egotistical souls think they know what scum look like, and what scum do" and that that's not true, that you have to put yourself in people's shoes and psychologically analyse them. I assume by this he means analyse whether what they do has town motivation or scum motivation.

It's funny how at odds that is with even considering the notion that there ARE scumtells, and that townies don't do these things all the time.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: constantine

[Mathdino]

Not that I don't agree with it, but just for the record and because I don't want to make assumptions, can you briefly list the reasons for your vote real quick?

[Wisdom]

I didn't remember his 580, prolly because I did not care much about reading his posts while he was roleplaying. So I assumed his bullshit about scumtells was just a common newbie mistake. Yet he knows better.

[Wisdom]

Unofficial VC:

Victor (4) - Not_Mafia, Constantine, Riddleton, TTH
Constantine (4) - blindmewithscience, Mathdino, wgeurts, Wisdom
Riddleton (1) - acryon

Not voting: FinnLaw, Malakittens, Newbie

[Wisdom]

FinnLaw, how come you've never voted all day? I checked the last newbie and you voted at least 3 people in D1 there (which is still not much, but it's more than zero)

Who would you vote right now if you absolutely had to?

[Riddleton]

c (Riddleton discusses wgeurts emotionless hyper-defenciveness). Dammit man, you're running into the same issue. Why would scum go after 'low-hanging fruit' and then refuse to interact with them? If you want to go after players it's easy to get a reaction out of, wouldn't you want to confront them head-on like the entire town did earlier?
However, I can agree with the defenciveness, but just a quick skim of Victor's meta shows that his posting style is a nulltell for him. He does the annoying 'one line response to huge quotes' as scum and town. Are some of his posts useless? Yes. Are they annoying to interact with? Yes. Scum? I'm not sold on this point at all.

Does he do very defensive posts when under pressure as scum, as he does now, by his meta? I would appreciate it if you shared your meta findings in more detail with us in another post.

d (Riddleton discusses Victor's IIoA). I don't understand how you view that post as BS or not contributing. He at the very least discusses blindmewithscience with a different perspective. I won't answer for him when it comes to Mala, however, but this post comes across to me as town trying to keep up with the game and consolidating thoughts so far. Which is basically like how blindme's been playing.

Absolutely not. Every point is either "I agree with this","X is town for #post", etc which doesn't really mean anything. No actual reads in that post, which go beyond a surface analysis

e (Riddleton discusses Victor's wgeurts vote). I hate to say this Riddleton but it looks like you're pulling a potential Victor story out of your ass. You assume that because Victor posted things he didn't like about wgeurts in his catchup post, he's trying to justify a vote several pages prior. Isn't it possible that wgeurts was just the scummiest damn player in the game at that point? I mean literally the only reason I'm backing off of him is because there's no way wgeurts is faking newbtown across the entire site.

Nope:
-Victor's original vote is baseless and is never explained ever
-Later on, we get floods of posts saying "Wgeurts could be scum for X"
-Dodges his initial reason for voting

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

Wgeurts has never been scummy. The issues earlier were a big fuss over playstyle. He has, however, been a target for his newbie play, hence low-hanging fruit.