Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[wgeurts]

I'll make a big post covering everything tommorow, I've got no access to a pc sadly.

Is this coming anytime soon, wgeurts?

Yes, however still no PC, I'm going to use meh ipod.

[Mathdino]

Really liked acryon's catchup post, enough to make me go back to townreads on Wisdom and Mala. Also enough to make me think acryon/Constantine are not a pair; I already pointed out that if acryon's scum, it's likely Constantine bussed him and Victor. If Constantine gets lynched (very real possibility) and flips scum, acryon would be pretty much fucked for the game. Bussing would not be the correct move here.

Was a bit disappointed that the below was completely missed though, as I still think it's fairly important. Since paging people directly apparently works,

BMWS, acryon, borkjerfkin, wgeurts

, would like discussion on this.

BMWS and anyone else

: I know I kinda got drowned out by Wisdom directly afterwards, but any thoughts on my series of posts on Riddleton? How about my meta case on Victor?

Also wtf NM. Hate to go with the 'too scummy to be scum' argument but this is a

bit

too ridiculous to pull after D1 scumflip. I mean he's joining a wagon that could possibly lead to a townflip;

who do you suppose would be the scummiest person on that wagon?

borkjerfkin, please explain Constantine vote.

Still pretty convinced on Riddleton being scum and Constantine/Riddleton not being a pair.

[borkjerfkin]

borkjerfkin, please explain Constantine vote. Still pretty convinced on Riddleton being scum and Constantine/Riddleton not being a pair.

He's:

1) provided pretty much no defensible arguments on anything he's done the entire game
2) is pushing vanity wagons today and is refusing to explain anything besides 'HUR SCUM DON'T BUS DUR'
3) in fact, has pretty much directly ignored multiple requests by me to explain himself

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Riddleton. He's not on my 'do not lynch' list.

BMWS, acryon, borkjerfkin, wgeurts, would like discussion on this.

I'll get up to speed on it

[borkjerfkin]

Also, I just realised: His 'scumslip' that I pointed out earlier? Well, it ONLY works if Victor is town. Since Victor flipped scum, it confirms that Riddleton just made a normal mistake there.
So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

So yes, I literally brought up this exact point (1018) and it does point to a heightened sense of how he appears in everyone's eyes, but is otherwise just plain illogical and therefore I am having a hard time saying that it isn't just null. Savvy town or scum would realize that this 'slip' was bunk after Vic's flip and would have ignored it - I think non-savvy players from either faction might do what Riddleton did.

[Wisdom]

it's insane to think the hammer is scummy.

Why is it insane? Why can't it be bussing?

[borkjerfkin]

Here is one of his scumgames he replaced into. His partners are Anatole and chaoslord. He starts off distancing his partner but then voting another 'scumread'. His first signature case was on acryon, but a lot of that is because of Riddleton's (also signature) hatred for NKA. His first post with both his scumpartners referenced. Scumreads one of them, sorta townreads the other. Then he outright makes a case against both his scumpartners and proceeds to powerbus the 2 of them, saying they're scumpartners, and flipping back and forth between voting them but being adamant that one of them gets lynched.

Possibly what I found weirdest about Riddleton's entrance is that he professed scumreads on both Vic and Mala, then proceeded to make a huge case on Vic and utterly ignore Mala.

[Mathdino]

I agree on the 'savviness' part (not to say Riddleton isn't savvy, but he did slip up before). However, it's perfectly logical; advocacy for one's own PL can be a good underhanded AtE to make people think he's town, along with the fact that he already preempted the scum not NKing him in the future.

I don't think you've commented on SilverWolf's play D1. Thoughts on that?

Edit: Good catch.

[borkjerfkin]

I read Silverwolf but honestly have kinda forgotten anything I read in it since Friday night. I'll look again.

[Wisdom]

Eh. More likely non-savvy town than non-savvy scum imo. You have to be dumb to continue talking about it as scum when the scumflip gives you the perfect excuse to bury it in the ground.

[acryon]

any thoughts on my series of posts on Riddleton

I'm not using your meta to prove you're scum. I'm using it to prove that you haven't done anything that shows you're town.

I think this quote from you pretty much sums up my thoughts on it as well. Yesterday, I thought SW/Riddleton was scum due to the reasons I presented then. While I think those reasons still stand, I am much less convinced that he is scum because of Riddleton's posts. While not looking town and being town are often on opposite sides, they are certainly not mutually exclusive. SW did a lot to make me think the slot was scummy, but Riddleton is making me a little less sure. Additionally, I would much rather revisit this after a Constantine lynch, because almost everything he says is just pinging so hard.

How about my meta case on Victor?

I was in the newbie game where Victor was scum with TSO who became Mala. I didn't have the same feeling this game that I did with him that game, where I ultimately concluded he was town, but he obviously turned out to be scum. That game certainly played a part in my resistance to the Victor wagon, because it just didn't feel similar at all to me.

[borkjerfkin]

non-savvy

You have to be dumb

Or to be nicer, it's just sloppy play from either alignment. I don't think town have a monopoly on being sloppy.

I don't get how talking about it makes him town.

[Mathdino]

It'd be dumb to continue talking about it either way. No matter town or scum, he clearly missed the fact that his slip's been nullified. Are you saying town is more likely to miss that than scum, Wisdom?

I think he thinks he can nullify the scumslip by advocating for a PL on himself but he didn't realise that there's no need for that.

Edit: Hang on, haven't read acryon's last post.

[Wisdom]

Maybe.

The thing that does trouble me is that he's talking about himself way more than he is scumhunting.

[Mathdino]

Additionally, I would much rather revisit this after a Constantine lynch, because almost everything he says is just pinging so hard.

I suppose since the only thing stopping me from a Constantine scumread is Riddleton, I'd be fine with that. Understand though that if Constantine is lynched and flips town, I'm going to be very resistant to not giving Riddleton the noose he asked for.

I was in the newbie game where Victor was scum with TSO who became Mala. I didn't have the same feeling this game that I did with him that game, where I ultimately concluded he was town, but he obviously turned out to be scum. That game certainly played a part in my resistance to the Victor wagon, because it just didn't feel similar at all to me.

That wasn't my point; obviously I'm not trying to argue he's scum after the flip. My point was the associations I'm drawing from Victor's posts based on his behaviour that game. His behaviour toward people seems to point to wgeurts-town, you-town (won't ask you to comment on that, haha), Mala-town, and Silver-scum.

Edit: Exactly. He's cruising. I'd expect Riddleton to have come up with another of his cases by now.

[wgeurts]

My reads are from town to scum:

Town

MathDino
Malakittens
BMS
Constantine
Bork
Newbie
Riddleton
Wisdom
Not Mafia

Scum

Explanation is under construction as we speak.

[wgeurts]

Sorry I haven't been so active, I've been putting too much attention into my other games.

[wgeurts]

Also when was Newbies last post, she's gone to lurking it seems.

[Mathdino]

Oh I see the issue. I URL'd 4 different words.
Me analysing Victor's previous scumgame.
Analysis of Victor's first longer post.
Victor wagon analysis.
Victor's other long post.

@wgeurts: Try to shy away from ordering reads lists like that in general. Gives scum a road map of who to kill. Just state your townreads and state your scumreads.

[acryon]

Additionally, I would much rather revisit this after a Constantine lynch, because almost everything he says is just pinging so hard.

I suppose since the only thing stopping me from a Constantine scumread is Riddleton, I'd be fine with that. Understand though that if Constantine is lynched and flips town, I'm going to be very resistant to not giving Riddleton the noose he asked for.

As will I.

I was in the newbie game where Victor was scum with TSO who became Mala. I didn't have the same feeling this game that I did with him that game, where I ultimately concluded he was town, but he obviously turned out to be scum. That game certainly played a part in my resistance to the Victor wagon, because it just didn't feel similar at all to me.

That wasn't my point; obviously I'm not trying to argue he's scum after the flip. My point was the associations I'm drawing from Victor's posts based on his behaviour that game. His behaviour toward people seems to point to wgeurts-town, you-town (won't ask you to comment on that, haha), Mala-town, and Silver-scum.

Well what I was getting at with that post was that I don't think his scum-play is consistent enough to draw conclusions based on his meta. While I do actually mostly agree with those conclusions, I don't agree with them because of his interaction with them.

[wgeurts]

Ah, ok i'll do that Mathdino.
I'm making a post on my ipod on everyone however it's taking a while. I've got no PC as said and I'm ill, however that's not an excuse as I should be more active.
My main points in it are my change of constantine to town and not-mafia as scum.

[borkjerfkin]

If Wguerts is scum I can see Silverwolf being scum with him for 135.

Aha, okay. In one of his games he did exactly this. "If [townplayer] is scum, I can see [my scumbuddy] being scum with him." Not making me feel more comfortable about Riddleton.

This is a gem of a point. This has no scum trajectory if he's talking about two town players, but does if his plan was to lynch wgeurts to get to his buddy, who he could easily back off of when the flip went the wrong way.

[borkjerfkin]

I also feel considerably better about acryon than I did going into the day (was a slot I was vacillating on quite a bit in my readthrough)

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Riddleton

[borkjerfkin]

But here's the problem. I think one of {Constantine, Riddleton} is scum. Why would Wisdom distract us from a wagon on Victor, with a wagon on another scumbuddy? The move just doesn't add up. I'm only comfortable seeing him as scum if Constantine and Riddleton are both town.

Therefore, if I had to call the scumteam, it'd be one of {Constantine, Riddleton, Wisdom}, and one of {NM, Newbie, maaaaybe Finn/bork}.

Just realize that no matter what the alignment combo of Constantine/Riddleton actually is, that what Wisdom was doing was angling a wagon away from someone who is now confirmed scum.

I realize that doesn't necessarily make him scum, but you can't go and say that this in any way had definite negative repercussions for the scumteam, considering Vic's flip.

[Mathdino]

Rereading my post you quoted just made me realise I PoE'd more people than there are town. Maybe NM is scum after all. I do want to hear from Newbie, hopefully she won't get replaced. Also just checked and apparently Mala never explained her twilight read on her.

Yo Mala, even if it's no longer valid, what gave you the scumread on Newbie yesterday?