Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Mathdino]

No, but just because you see Malakittens and Wisdom as TvS doesn't mean it's 100% certain, and enough townies disagree on this for it to be up in the air. This is the same thing we talked about earlier; tunneling like that doesn't really help further discussion.

Still waiting on your answer to my Riddleton question.

Anyway, the funny thing is, Mala's openly admitted that the scumread on Wisdom was gut combined with Victor's posts partially pointing to him, and Mala's probably most adequately explained her scumread on him. I mean if you want to use Mala's logic (as opposed to gut), IMO, it leads straight to Riddleton rather than Wisdom. So you very much do need to explain what Wisdom's done that's scummy.

[Newbie]

What are the highly scummy things I've done? Pushing a wagon I felt was terrible? Pushing my scumreads?

Like I've outlined in this post, you skirted through most of the first half of the dayphase, coupled with the fact that you pushed lynches

other

than the VD one, which happened to be the scum lynch, for the second half of the dayphase.

(Only reason I unvoted you day one was because of a misunderstanding that I'm not willing to talk about right now)

But one that is apparently no longer in play since you're willing to vote him again?

Only it was no longer in play since the last bit of last day phase. Again, I'm not willing to talk about because it would probably be anti town.

[borkjerfkin]

leaning newbie town now.

[Newbie]

No, but just because you see Malakittens and Wisdom as TvS doesn't mean it's 100% certain, and enough townies disagree on this for it to be up in the air. This is the same thing we talked about earlier; tunneling like that doesn't really help further discussion.

Still waiting on your answer to my Riddleton question.

Anyway, the funny thing is, Mala's openly admitted that the scumread on Wisdom was gut combined with Victor's posts partially pointing to him, and Mala's probably most adequately explained her scumread on him. I mean if you want to use Mala's logic (as opposed to gut), IMO, it leads straight to Riddleton rather than Wisdom. So you very much do need to explain what Wisdom's done that's scummy.

I'm still waiting for his Mala case.

I can already tell you probably won't even agree with my scumread on Wisdom, and in your eyes, since you don't agree with it, I shouldn't have him as a scum suspect.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I pushed people who I thought were scum. VD wasn't one of them. And?

The case you're linking has to do with my wgeurts push - I've explained my thoughts entirely in regards to why I was thinking he is scum.

[Mathdino]

What are the highly scummy things I've done? Pushing a wagon I felt was terrible? Pushing my scumreads?

Like I've outlined in this post, you skirted through most of the first half of the dayphase, coupled with the fact that you pushed lynches

other

than the VD one, which happened to be the scum lynch, for the second half of the dayphase.

Wait a second, the 2nd half of that post is about how he's trying to 'inch by inch put suspicion on Victor'. So now that was distancing I'm guessing?

I don't like how that post and the posts it links to basically make Wisdom scum in your eyes no matter what Victor's flip is.

[Mathdino]

I can already tell you probably won't even agree with my scumread on Wisdom, and in your eyes, since you don't agree with it, I shouldn't have him as a scum suspect.

On the contrary Newbie, I may no longer be asking you to sell me on Wisdom, but rather to convince me your scumread is even genuine.
Usually best to just answer the question

[Wisdom]

Speaking of that case

I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

Why is that hard to believe? Do you think that everyone sees everything the same way? What you're saying here is that because I didn't see something the way you saw it, I'm scum. And it makes no sense how you go from that to "his questions are fluff" either. What makes my questions fluff as opposed to actual questions to figure out things?

[Newbie]

What are the highly scummy things I've done? Pushing a wagon I felt was terrible? Pushing my scumreads?

Like I've outlined in this post, you skirted through most of the first half of the dayphase, coupled with the fact that you pushed lynches

other

than the VD one, which happened to be the scum lynch, for the second half of the dayphase.

Wait a second, the 2nd half of that post is about how he's trying to 'inch by inch put suspicion on Victor'. So now that was distancing I'm guessing?

I don't like how that post and the posts it links to basically make Wisdom scum in your eyes

no matter what Victor's flip is

.

Rofl. Isn't that what you're basically doing to riddleton?

Regarding to Wisdom and Victor, I also think thiswas a way for Wisdom to distance himself a bit and also get some town cred for calling out VD's weird behavior in the beginning. Notice how he didn't directly question him about it like acryon but directly asks him about the wgeurts lynch.

[acryon]

Acyron isn't confirmed scum. Nothing in this game is confirmed, but I guarantee you town will win by lynching the two people off the wagon and the last two people on the wagon

This is completely wrong. If I had to throw out numbers I would say when scum are on a wagon it is 25% in the beginning, 50% in the middle and 25% in the end. The absolutes you are trying to put on this game are completely wrong and are severely skewing your perspective.

And why would you tell masons to claim?? We already went over why this is terrible.

I have already made my case on several occasions on why Constantine is scum, so I'm just going to do a run-down now as an appeal to the town:

First things first, he is not a village idiot. Probably the furthest thing from it. He knows exactly what he is doing which is why he speaks and acts as if this game functions in absolutes rooted in his own flavor of the game. He claims he has played many games, so should understand the late-game implications of living masons. Despite this presumed knowledge, he on multiple occasions near-outs the masons as well as straight-up asks for a claim. Since he has, again on multiple occasions, talked about how big of newbs most of the people in this game are, there is a good chance one of the masons could have claimed in response to his request, which would be bad for town. Thankfully, he is wrong about the town, and nobody bought into it, despite his multiple attempts. He has drawn multiple conclusions, most of which are based on incompatible associative tells. See 605 for a little run-down on that. This includes a claim in 597 that Mathdino, Victor, and SilverWolf have a non-mason connection, which implies a scum-team. Then in 627 changes his story and decides only one of them is scum, even though much of his initial discussion hinged on a shared alignment. In 720, he decides to enlighten the town with what makes scum. This is not being presented by someone who doesn't appear to understand the game(although he doesn't). It is presented by one of two people: grossly misinformed/newb/misunderstanding town, or pompous scum thinking they can manipulate the town into lynching his definition of scum(which he conveniently avoids being slotted into). Today, there are the obvious issues, including his

absurd

claim that you should always lynch off the wagon the day after the lynch, which may be one of the dumbest, most misinformed things I have ever seen stated as a policy.

I don't think it's possible to accept that Constantine is someone who doesn't know what he is saying and is simply misinformed. I think his statements and actions are clearly indicative of experience. The only two options are that he is a misinformed/misunderstanding player, or he is blatant, manipulative scum, and I think it is insane that you could accept the former as the truth in this case.

My vote remains on Constantine, and nothing short of a flat-out town-confirmation is getting me off of it.

[Wisdom]

Notice how he didn't directly question him about it like acryon but directly asks him about the wgeurts lynch.

I ask who about the wgeurts lynch?
Also I did directly ask him and pursue that meta-question thingy because it felt really weird. I stopped when Victor's answers were satisfying.

[Newbie]

Speaking of that case

I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

Why is that hard to believe? Do you think that everyone sees everything the same way? What you're saying here is that because I didn't see something the way you saw it, I'm scum. And it makes no sense how you go from that to "his questions are fluff" either.

What makes my questions fluff as opposed to actual questions to figure out things?

Your questions just came off as fluff to me, and it seriously looked like you were skirting through the phase without really making any commitments to anything.

[borkjerfkin]

@acryon - I'll consider what you said as now that my knee-jerk reaction has faded, but you're right in that what he's been doing is not exactly talking the talk with the amount of experience he claims to have, unless it's on some site that really does have that kind of meta and that's a dead end.

I'd prefer not to derail what's currently going on, though.

[Mathdino]

@Newbie: Good question, actually had to think about that for a bit. But it is different. Here's the thing; my thoughts on Riddleton have little to do with Victor. Victor is irrelevant to Riddleton, that's what the meta argument proved: that the fact that Riddleton pushed a scum wagon doesn't give him towncred. Now, that fact doesn't give him scumpoints. What makes him scum is SilverWolf's scummy behaviour

independent of others

, the fact that Riddleton keeps trying to PL himself, and partially due to how Victor talked about SilverWolf (which is actually fairly significant).
The thing is, coming up with possible scenarios and possible scum motivations is pretty much a confbias case, and only really proves they're not 100% town.

@acryon: Or maybe he's just a troll and we should all PM the mod about the fact that he tried to roleplay a mafia game, won't stop calling the entire thread idiotic, made up a new wincon for himself, and (I think this pretty much proves he's a troll) tried to make up out of thin air 'argumem de axiom', 'argumem de obicular', and 'argumem de astern'. Seriously, google those. Google 'obicular'. You're right in that he's not a VI or a newbie. He's just a troll.

[borkjerfkin]

'argumem de obicular', and 'argumem de astern'.

lol, i'd forgotten he did that. That was kind of funny.

[Wisdom]

Your questions just came off as fluff to me

I fail to see how my questions can be even interpreted as fluff. Can you link to questions of mine that you feel don't advance the game in any way?

But that's not even the point. You said "therefore, his questions come off as fluff" like this comes as a conclusion from the fact I didn't share your view about whether wgeurts was scummy. Can you explain?

[Not_Mafia]

@mod sorry to do this but I have to request replacement, I recently unexpectantly moved back into work and simply cannot keep up with the pace of this game. I will help you help you find a replacememt if you would like me to

Sorry guys, this is my first replace out, but it's just not possible for me to continue. I hope you follow what I said and understand it, this is a decent enough town but peoppe aren't looking past inactivity

[Newbie]

@Newbie: Good question, actually had to think about that for a bit. But it is different. Here's the thing; my thoughts on Riddleton have little to do with Victor. Victor is irrelevant to Riddleton, that's what the meta argument proved: that the fact that Riddleton pushed a scum wagon doesn't give him towncred. Now, that fact doesn't give him scumpoints. What makes him scum is SilverWolf's scummy behaviour

independent of others

, the fact that Riddleton keeps trying to PL himself, and partially due to how Victor talked about SilverWolf (which is actually fairly significant).
The thing is, coming up with possible scenarios and possible scum motivations is pretty much a confbias case, and only really proves they're not 100% town.

@acryon: Or maybe he's just a troll and we should all PM the mod about the fact that he tried to roleplay a mafia game, won't stop calling the entire thread idiotic, made up a new wincon for himself, and (I think this pretty much proves he's a troll) tried to make up out of thin air 'argumem de axiom', 'argumem de obicular', and 'argumem de astern'. Seriously, google those. Google 'obicular'. You're right in that he's not a VI or a newbie. He's just a troll.

That's the thing though, I didn't really SW as scummy.

[Wisdom]

Because she was voting me, I bet

[Newbie]

Your questions just came off as fluff to me

I fail to see how my questions can be even interpreted as fluff. Can you link to questions of mine that you feel don't advance the game in any way?

But that's not even the point. You said "therefore, his questions come off as fluff" like this comes as a conclusion from the fact I didn't share your view about whether wgeurts was scummy. Can you explain?

I just linked you two. Before that question, wgeurts unvoted you and received flack for it and then he got voted up. The biggest things are that you continued to skirt through the phase with no reads/scum hunting, and when you finally did vote, it was sort of an omgsus reaction to wgeurts. After that, you continued trying to push any wagons other than the VD one, which I find interesting that you didn't even put your vote on any of the two that you wanted to vote last day phase (Constantine and Riddleton) this day phase.

[Mathdino]

Aaaand that's game. NM's slot is town. Scum are 2 of {Riddleton, Constantine (now a total null), Wisdom, Malakittens, Newbie}. Newbie/Malakittens unlikely. Wisdom/Riddleton unlikely.
Hey bork, why are Wisdom/Newbie not an option?

[Wisdom]

I don't see the link

What is interesting about that? Victor flipping scum made me reconsider my reads on these two.

[Wisdom]

NM's slot is town.

Why?

[Mathdino]

I trust Mala not to outright lie about his meta, and then you combine that with the replace-out and the post where he suggested it. Town replace-out =/= scum replace-out. This one is pretty consistent with what I know of NM (plus his terribly limited access early on).

[Newbie]

Because she was voting me, I bet

Nope.