Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)


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Post Post #1625 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:45 pm

Post by blindmewithscience »

In post 1531, Wisdom wrote:
In post 1528, Mathdino wrote:You know what, I'm really really sorry for this Mala, but I think this is necessary. If you want to lynch me tomorrow for pointing this out, go ahead.
In post 913, Malakittens wrote:Nah even If he flips town you'd never get a lynch on me

Either you didn't ISO Mala when I told you to, or you're scum dragging this out.


Yes, I saw this. Especially given this happened in twilight; why can't this be a VT drawing the NK? Why can't it be scum faking said vt (or faking a mason)?

Whoops, found him saying that he did see it, along with a response to my question...
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Post Post #1626 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:27 pm

Post by reinoe »

MOD STUFF

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Here's some expensive wine for saulres. Thanks for doing those VC's. Things were hectic while I was away.
VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom- malakittens, Not_Mafia, borkjerfkin, Newbie
borkjerkfin-
wgeurts-
St. Constantine The Hermit- Riddleton
Newbie-
Malakittens- wgeurts
Riddleton- St. Constantine
Not_Mafia-Wisdom
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting- blindmewithscience, acryon, Mathdino

Riddleton is V/LA until 11/5/2014
malakittens is V/LA until 11/11/2014
Looking for a replacement for Not_Mafia


With 11 Alive it's 6 to lynch.
(expired on 2014-11-14 21:00:00)

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Wow it really did take everyone forever to get ready for Brunch!!! It took so long to get ready that Brunch is no longer being served!!! Wow what chaos, what disarray! You know what? It was probably due to the enemies. Now, the big question is...should you guys just have lunch or move on to Dance Dance Revolution...

Scum typically need to fabricate reasons for scumreads...

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Post Post #1627 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 1587, Riddleton wrote:V/LA maybe? Read my other games... I've said it there. So fuck off.
See the post directly after. I apologised because I didn't notice you were on V/LA (I was bored and phone posting).
In post 1592, Riddleton wrote:[quote="In post 1590, borkjerfkin"
The mason team is Mala, N_M, and myself.

.

Why the fuck did you ouit the mason team like that?[/quote]Brother, Wisdom is scum and we literally just talked for 5 pages about why Mala and NM are masons. If you ISO them, it was INCREDIBLY obvious that Finn/bork was the other one. They never displayed suspicion on each other once.
In post 1595, Riddleton wrote:You do realise, bork, that they're going to be the next 3 NKs, and the game's going to be mountainous from herein, which favours scum?
Doesn't matter. We kill 2 scum in a row, damn well favours town.
In post 1599, Riddleton wrote:I don't agree with this. If this was true, then a mason would have been killed yesterday. I know, NKA sucks, but this would be optimal play for scum.
Optimal play was to kill TTH because she was one of the least manipulatible townies when it comes to Wisdom. I don't think they knew who the mason team was, or like I said, maybe thought TTH/acryon were masons.
In post 1605, Newbie wrote:^
Yeah. That's why I'm completely confused. Nobody counterclaimed Wisdom when he showed that he understood what TTH was talking about, so I figured TTH was probably right about Wisdom as a mason. If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it...

vote: Wisdom


Also, that hint Malakittens left during twilight completely went over my head.
Newbie confirmed town.
In post 1609, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:We know the mason team. I'll wait for the confirmation.
I completely agree with Bork's decision to out the masons.

I didn't actually think wisdom was a mason, but I did want to protect him from being mislynched. I think this confirms my suspicion on newbie and acyron.
Don't respond, Math, don't respond, Math, you can do this...
In post 1624, blindmewithscience wrote:And what specifically makes Wisdom town? Now don't say gut; Mafia's not a feeling game. It's about making evidence and cases, and gut isn't a valid reason to decide who or who not to lynch.

Hmm... speaking of wisdom... I'm remembering him saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight. What made his malapush valid then? (I'm going to make sure that Wisdom did actually say that, just to make sure I'm not messing poeple up.
Mafia actually is a feeling game... jussayin. Gut is a very valid reason if you know someone well. It's actually why I know you're town.
He already WIFOM'd the hell out of Mala's softclaim. I think he thought she was a VT and as I said, went for TTH/acryon or figured it'd be make a whack case on Mala and tunnel her the entire day (like he usually does) to get a claim out of her or lynch someone who's good at reading him.

All I have to say, bork, is Wisdom should've known damn right you were the mason team if he actually ISO'd you and did the work.
Constantine is just being dumb, still wanna PL him tomorrow.
Riddleton's back to casing, at least we have that.

I'll do the PoE myself. Mala, bork, NM, confirmed town. Leaves Wisdom, BMWS, acryon, Riddleton, Constantine, Newbie, wgeurts.
wgeurts is confirmed town due to interactions. If he was scum all along I'm giving him a goddamn medal.
BMWS extremely sure town.
There's scum in {Wisdom, Constantine, Riddleton}, but like I said, it doesn't make too much sense to push a lynch away from your partner and onto another partner. That said, it's still a viable play, and I'll look over interactions tomorrow to see if we can get anything out of this.
If there's not 2 scum in the above and Wisdom flips town, Newbie is scum.
If there's STILL not 2 scum found, it's acryon.
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Post Post #1628 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:58 pm

Post by Wisdom »

UNVOTE:
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Post Post #1629 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:01 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1603, borkjerfkin wrote:

he just kinda runs with it. I'd have tried a subtle 'you are on the wrong track' nudge if I were a VT, especially if I townread TTH.

In post 1605, Newbie wrote:^
Yeah. That's why I'm completely confused. Nobody counterclaimed Wisdom when he showed that he understood what TTH was talking about, so I figured TTH was probably right about Wisdom as a mason. If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it...


Are you listening to yourselves? Why would I deny it? Let scum NK me and fail if they think I'm a mason
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Post Post #1630 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:04 pm

Post by Mathdino »

You know what, it's Wisdom/Riddleton. That has to be it. Everything about D1 points to Victor/SilverWolf having been a team, especially given the meta analysis. Riddleton still decided to go barrel off after Mala anyway even with the evidence in his face.
Why doesn't this nullify the "doesn't makes sense to distract mislynch with mislynch"? By the time we switched to Riddleton, it was pretty obvious that wasn't gaining any traction at all. The only real people in danger yesterday were wgeurts, Wisdom, Constantine, and Victor; Riddle was barely on the table.

And then even after supporting the SilverWolf/Riddleton lynch D1, Wisdom's been defending his trying to lynch himself all day.

Wisdom/Constantine is impossible, as is Wisdom/wgeurts still. Riddleton's the last scum.
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Post Post #1631 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:06 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1614, St Constantine the Hermit wrote:There's also the possibility that wisdom is scum, but I highly doubt it.

dat wking
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Post Post #1632 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:07 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1624, blindmewithscience wrote:I'm remembering him saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight.

Nope, I said I saw that when Mathdino asked me to ISO her
Even so, it didn't mean much to me like I explained
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Post Post #1633 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:09 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1627, Mathdino wrote:Newbie confirmed town.

Agreed, this was one of the reasons I got a townread on Newbie, the way she thought I may be a mason felt really genuine.
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Post Post #1634 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:11 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1627, Mathdino wrote:He already WIFOM'd the hell out of Mala's softclaim. I think he thought she was a VT and as I said, went for TTH/acryon or figured it'd be make a whack case on Mala and tunnel her the entire day (like he usually does) to get a claim out of her or lynch someone who's good at reading him.

Scum don't fucking push who they think to be a mason, ffs. Start making sense.
What happened was I actually thought Mala bussed Victor.
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Post Post #1635 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:14 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1627, Mathdino wrote:Wisdom should've known damn right you were the mason team if he actually ISO'd you and did the work.

:roll:
The fact the masons this game were this bad and gave out they are masons on their own doesn't mean that's what usually happens. I've played in plenty of games with masons and usually there are not obvious behaviors to tell them from. Really, it's silly you keep believing it's this easy.
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Post Post #1636 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:15 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1627, Mathdino wrote:and Wisdom flips town, Newbie is scum.

Nah, doubt it
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Post Post #1637 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:17 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1630, Mathdino wrote:Wisdom's been defending his trying to lynch himself all day.

Well I don't think scum are this dumb, so
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Post Post #1638 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:17 pm

Post by Wisdom »

VOTE: constantine
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Post Post #1639 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:18 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Who are the masons?
What have I missed?
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Post Post #1640 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:18 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Have you ever seen a group of players who've hard defended like that for an entire game, not even pointing out scummy behaviours? Not once did they move out of the null category. One of them put the other 2 masons in nullreads. One started doting over the other 2's posting. One just defended and sheeped the others.

This just doesn't happen. Usually there aren't obvious behaviours to tell them from, yes, but anyone who ISOs them can see it's pretty friggin obvious.

Again, you went with "too townish to be town". The fact of the matter is though, 3 VTs have no motivation to put on a mason act so the scum don't catch them.

Edit: LOL WGEURTS LOL
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Post Post #1641 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:20 pm

Post by Wisdom »

Masons. aren't. this. fucking. obvious.
Go and read some games with masons or something.
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Post Post #1642 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:23 pm

Post by Mathdino »

So the best assumption is they were A. VTs who all knew each other was pretending to be a mason, or B. 2 scum buddying a VT to oblivion and the VT doesn't care and decides to reciprocate?

No one other than masons display that behaviour. I agree that masons shouldn't be that obvious, but your "masons shouldn't be obvious" argument has been logically fallacious for a while now.
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Post Post #1643 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:29 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 1598, borkjerfkin wrote:
In post 1595, Riddleton wrote:You do realise, bork, that they're going to be the next 3 NKs, and the game's going to be mountainous from herein, which favours scum?


I am convinced that was going to happen anyway. Certainly if it's Wisdom and his 'the whole mason team is my scumlist' schtick that I don't buy at all.

But I'm also forcing day play down a specific road.

This is why we should've been avoiding pre-flip associative, jesus. Already had more than enough associative from Victor to get a lynch.
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Post Post #1644 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:30 pm

Post by Malakittens »

Mala isnt asleep but spent the last 12 hours on trains and planes
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


Get to know a Mala~Grey<3 4.7.2015
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Post Post #1645 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:32 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Mala, if Wisdom flips town and you die, who do we lynch? Unless some total pro bags NM's slot, you seem like the primary NK target.
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Post Post #1646 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:38 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 1193, Malakittens wrote:You wanna know what's really shitty.

Besides gut, VDA's meta research analysis and Wisdom being off the lynch and being abouestly hard-headed against it I wanna get him lynched.

I don't really see why MathDino is wanting is to get lynched one after another. It's lining up lynches if both Wisdom and I are town and I hate that.
(even then I'd still win over Wisdom)

For your viewing enjoyment :lol:

Anyway.
@Wisdom
: If you're town, can you write a case for last words? Lay all your cards on the table. Like I said, your thought process seems fairly similar to mine (most of the time) so I'll try to push a lynch on your case target tomorrow since it looks like I won't get NK'd anytime soon.

Honestly I still prefer Riddleton but if you want to go with Constantine I really have no business complaining, haha.
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Post Post #1647 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:57 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 1488, borkjerfkin wrote:
In post 1480, Wisdom wrote:What's the scum motivation in doing what he says I did?


There's no scum motivation in leading town on a wild goose chase / pushing lynches you know won't go through? Like what I did the last time I played this setup?

In fact

http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/KpjZBCV3DsW
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=25295

I want people to at least experience how scum mindset works in this setup. Last time I played this I had the mason team narrowed down to two possible sets on D1 of a game I had just replaced into. I whiffed on the kill N1, but after that I knew who the team was exactly. It's not that hard to find a set of three masons; they have all the associatives scum have and more because they're not afraid to hard buddy each other. Scum probably knew post TTH flip. TTH was pretty fucking town though so I can't begrudge them that kill.

That didn't stop me from pushing them on subsequent days, because it 1) wastes tons of time (I am actively trying to make sure this doesn't happen anymore today because it's getting out of hand) 2) still looks like scumhunting and 3) forcing the claim allows you to make a 0 info nightkill and 4) sometimes the game just naturally moves there (this happened a lot in my case)

If I may, I'd like everyone to read this QT, if not the thread (good read). This
perfectly
illustrates the motivation in trying to run up a potential mason; nothing is really sure.
So yes, I've read games with masons.
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Post Post #1648 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:13 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1642, Mathdino wrote:So the best assumption is they were A. VTs who all knew each other was pretending to be a mason, or B. 2 scum buddying a VT to oblivion and the VT doesn't care and decides to reciprocate?

No one other than masons display that behaviour. I agree that masons shouldn't be that obvious, but your "masons shouldn't be obvious" argument has been logically fallacious for a while now.


The best assumption was to let them do their thing and continue scumhunting normally without speculating about who is a mason and who isn't. But naaah we just had to out the masons
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Post Post #1649 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:13 pm

Post by wgeurts »

You've made 6 pages while I slept, can someone sum them up?

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