Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[acryon]

I've just been reading along, because I think it is better for the sake of the argument to see him answer your questions 1-on-1 without my interjections, which would certainly be somewhat biased due to my long-standing Mathdino town-read. I'll be honest that this conversation has definitely made me feel worse about him. I will also say that I have been in similar situations as Mathdino before and answered questions poorly as town, which could be happening here, but with how confidently he has been playing a lot of this game, that's a little harder to believe.

Bork, I know you said that he is scum, but how confident would you say you are on it at this point, if you had to pick a percentage?

[borkjerfkin]

Bork, I know you said that he is scum, but how confident would you say you are on it at this point, if you had to pick a percentage?

I don't know that I want to play that game. Decide for yourself if my arguments have merit, or discuss why you think he's town if you're able to do a hard reset first.

[acryon]

Bork, I know you said that he is scum, but how confident would you say you are on it at this point, if you had to pick a percentage?

I don't know that I want to play that game. Decide for yourself if my arguments have merit, or discuss why you think he's town if you're able to do a hard reset first.

I think your arguments have a lot of merit, and his responses to your arguments didn't exactly help his case. But I don't think it's completely crazy to look to you since you're the only conftown. I know it's kind of a crappy position for you to be in, but with so much uncertainty, it just makes sense to put extra stock in the one certainty we have.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm fairly confident. We get 2 shots at this and he's my #1.

Relook at Silverwolf's ISO actually - she was quite suspicious of him too.

[acryon]

Yeah, I mean Silverwolf never seemed to explicitly state a suspicion of Mathdino, but 347 from him really looks like maybe he should have. I think your case is good, and this conversation between you two has done some serious work to convince me. I do want to point out that I am taking full responsibility for this vote. Bork is already in a position of sort of being stuck with the weight of the town, and I have no interest in pretending he forced me into this decision. This is making me feel really stupid for feeling like I was on the same wave-length with Mathdino most of the game, but this game has already proven how weak my gut can be I guess.

Definitely never thought I would be doing this:
VOTE: Mathdino

[Mathdino]

That's great. bork, unvote now and come up with a 2nd suspect. You WILL die tonight after I flip and I'm completely unsure as to which of acryon and Newbie is scum. Assume I'm town for 10 seconds so we can figure this out. Doesn't matter to me if I get lynched at this point.

[borkjerfkin]

and you're sure it's not bmws?

gun to my head i'd pick newbie right now but i have the capacity to vote any of them if i am left alive tomorrow and not having to deal with the third will be a huge boon to my trajectory.

[Mathdino]

You're not GOING to be left alive tomorrow.

[borkjerfkin]

then it's kinda out of my hands anyway? I don't want to be blindly sheeped tomorrow if I'm dead, I want town to reevaluate.

If it isn't you, the fact that acryon voted BMWS first and newbie second suggests acryon is town - it's somewhat less likely that scum-acryon knew that newbie was favoring bmws at that point.

[Mathdino]

I've just been reading along, because I think it is better for the sake of the argument to see him answer your questions 1-on-1 without my interjections, which would certainly be somewhat biased due to my long-standing Mathdino town-read. I'll be honest that

this conversation has definitely made me feel worse about him

. I will also say that I have been in similar situations as Mathdino before and

answered questions poorly

as town, which could be happening here, but with how confidently he has been playing a lot of this game, that's a little harder to believe.

I think your arguments have a lot of merit, and his responses to your arguments didn't exactly help his case

. But I don't think it's completely crazy to look to you since you're the only conftown. I know it's kind of a crappy position for you to be in, but with so much uncertainty, it just makes sense to put extra stock in the one certainty we have.

Yeah, I mean Silverwolf never seemed to explicitly state a suspicion of Mathdino, but 347 from him really looks like maybe he should have.

I think your case is good

, and

this conversation between you two has done some serious work to convince me

. I do want to point out that I am taking full responsibility for this vote. Bork is already in a position of sort of being stuck with the weight of the town, and I have no interest in pretending he forced me into this decision. This is making me feel really stupid for feeling like I was on the same wave-length with Mathdino most of the game, but this game has already proven how weak my gut can be I guess.

Definitely never thought I would be doing this:
VOTE: Mathdino

acryon. Look at yourself. I bolded the reasoning for your vote.
Explain how this has convinced you and what about my play in the past few pages gives his argument merit. Because from my perspective, I'm being voted for defending the logic that's been shat on.
The fact that you're not even explaining what led you to this decision but you repeated that bork convinced you like 5 times is making me reconsider my Newbie read.

No one hammer anyone until bork and the hammered person come up with tomorrow's lynch candidate.

Edit: Yeah, I agree. Good.

[borkjerfkin]

I've shouldered a lot of personal responsibility from town losses in the past (even getting demoralized enough to almost quit the site) when I've been the (sometimes de-facto) town leader and let town down the wrong path.

I'm not letting myself go down that road anymore. I'm doing the best I can with what I have available, but people left alive ahead of me need to use their brains too if I turn out to be wrong. That's just how it is.

[Mathdino]

Awkward moment when if someone steps in and hammers me, that's on you...
>.>
<.<
>.>

I am not going to let myself die if acryon and Newbie are just gonna quicklynch BMWS come LyLo.

[Mathdino]

bork, can you unvote like now? I am not going to lose this game because someone PoE'd a newbie out of the realm of possibility of being scum.

[Newbie]

Don't worry. I'm not hammering you, mathdino. I just can't believe you guys are letting bmws get away with the same thing VD was doing. What's about bmws makes him absolutely town?

[borkjerfkin]

bork, can you unvote like now? I am not going to lose this game because someone PoE'd a newbie out of the realm of possibility of being scum.

No.

[Mathdino]

1. 241 is not a response to a scumpartner.
2. The ol 'two sides to this town' (ain't big enough for the both of us) post, scum would not explicitly draw a line and step on the side with both their scumpartners.
3. 387 leads everyone STRAIGHT to Wisdom if wgeurts ended up getting lynched, which was a real possibility.
4. His 'why did you do that?!?!' to Malakittens after she hammered. This is gut. His response was literally EXACTLY how I'd have expected him to respond as town.
5. "I'm remembering [Wisdom] saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight." This must have come from town because if he were scum, he would've just asked Wisdom in the scum PT. He wouldn't have used that wording.
6. Puts Constantine at L-1 but tries to get the town to slow down the lynch until Const checks in.
7. The smoking... anti... gun?

Wait, so if you 3 are the masons, could someone explain the "specific setup-related thing" that happened starting with post 666? I thought that that was mason-related but it doesn't seem to be...

This. Could not have come from scum. He would've just asked scum in the PT.

[borkjerfkin]

I am reasonably certain it's Newbie if it's not you.

[borkjerfkin]

acryon has been really town today.

[borkjerfkin]

newbie has not so much

[Mathdino]

Newbie, let's not forget his entire D3 play:

How does Bork have less information? Pls explain.

If I'm deciding between you and acryon , I'd vote aceyon for now

. I'll go through Both of you though,

trying to find scum without confbias

.

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO
I'm a bit busy ATM, but got through about 2/3 of it all. I'll just point out a few things right now, and try to make a larger post later.
556: IF he were scum, then it would be really weird for him to directly point out his two scumbuddies, especially at this point in the game.

For me, this leans him null-town.

560: Says that scum-Wisdom leading the wgeurts lynch is highly unlikely. I semi-agreed with this at the time, though it obviosuly turned out to be incorrect.

This brings him back to null.

1221: Thinks Wisdom is misguided town, Constantine is scum, but

with valid reasons

(and both ended up incorrect).
I'll try to post something more substantial later.

He comes in and after being asked who he'd lynch between me and acryon, he'd choose acryon.
Cool.
Then why would he make a case that shows acryon is null?
He went through acryon's ISO, just like I asked him to, and he's clearly having trouble finding any scum after getting rid of his confbias. Scum in his situation SHOULD be writing up a case on why acryon is scum if only in self preservation, and then latching onto bork's argument to get me lynched in LyLo, at which point he endgames Newbie.

[Mathdino]

Can everyone here please provide their lynch orders?

Mine is Newbie, acryon, BMWS, myself.

Newbie

, what do you mean by 'get away with the same thing VD was doing'?

[Newbie]

newbie has not so much

It's funny how everyone keeps saying this but no one votes me. Also, I think you're wrong about both me

and

mathdino.

1. 241 is not a response to a scumpartner.
2. The ol 'two sides to this town' (ain't big enough for the both of us) post, scum would not explicitly draw a line and step on the side with both their scumpartners.
3.

387 leads everyone STRAIGHT to Wisdom if wgeurts ended up getting lynched, which was a real possibility.

4. His 'why did you do that?!?!' to Malakittens after she hammered. This is gut. His response was literally EXACTLY how I'd have expected him to respond as town.
5. "I'm remembering [Wisdom] saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight." This must have come from town because if he were scum, he would've just asked Wisdom in the scum PT. He wouldn't have used that wording.
6. Puts Constantine at L-1 but tries to get the town to slow down the lynch until Const checks in.
7. The smoking... anti... gun?

Wait, so if you 3 are the masons, could someone explain the "specific setup-related thing" that happened starting with post 666? I thought that that was mason-related but it doesn't seem to be...

This. Could not have come from scum. He would've just asked scum in the PT.

All I see in 387 is him trying to justify why he doesn't find the Wisdom wagon a good idea.

Also, did it ever occur to you that he could've been asking questions about the mason thing to blend in/get some kind of town cred?

Newbie, let's not forget his entire D3 play:

How does Bork have less information? Pls explain.

If I'm deciding between you and acryon , I'd vote aceyon for now

. I'll go through Both of you though,

trying to find scum without confbias

.

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO
I'm a bit busy ATM, but got through about 2/3 of it all. I'll just point out a few things right now, and try to make a larger post later.
556: IF he were scum, then it would be really weird for him to directly point out his two scumbuddies, especially at this point in the game.

For me, this leans him null-town.

560: Says that scum-Wisdom leading the wgeurts lynch is highly unlikely. I semi-agreed with this at the time, though it obviosuly turned out to be incorrect.

This brings him back to null.

1221: Thinks Wisdom is misguided town, Constantine is scum, but

with valid reasons

(and both ended up incorrect).
I'll try to post something more substantial later.

He comes in and after being asked who he'd lynch between me and acryon, he'd choose acryon.
Cool.
Then why would he make a case that shows acryon is null?
He went through acryon's ISO, just like I asked him to, and he's clearly having trouble finding any scum after getting rid of his confbias. Scum in his situation SHOULD be writing up a case on why acryon is scum if only in self preservation, and then latching onto bork's argument to get me lynched in LyLo, at which point he endgames Newbie.

Why would he write a case on acryon to get him lynched and end up with me, you, and him when it would be harder to discern the scum between acryon and him when it comes down to it?

[Newbie]

You're just going to have to vote me then because I'm not taking mines off of bmws.

By pulling a VD, I mean he seems to be putting things off as much as possible.

[acryon]

acryon. Look at yourself. I bolded the reasoning for your vote.
Explain how this has convinced you and what about my play in the past few pages gives his argument merit. Because from my perspective, I'm being voted for defending the logic that's been shat on.
The fact that you're not even explaining what led you to this decision but you repeated that bork convinced you like 5 times is making me reconsider my Newbie read.

Specifically:
-The wgeurts meta situation is a very weird slip, and I didn't buy your answer to it.
-Post like 1956 are awkwardly emotional compared to the way you've played a lot of this game.
-1928 in general is very on-point.

I don't feel the need to go through and put my thumbs up on everything he has said that I agree with and thumbs down on your responses, as I think the conversation speaks for itself. I have no reason to re-hash good arguments that he has already made. I won't say I'm 100% confident you are scum, but I am more confident in bork's case on you than in any case I have on anyone else. Maybe that's just a cop-out, but as the only confirmed-town, I have good reason to believe his play more than anyone else's, so putting extra weight on his input just makes sense IMO.

[Mathdino]

Provide your lynch order, Newbie.

The point on 387 is that he stated (repeatedly) D1 that Wisdom and wgeurts are not scum together. Over. And over. And over. And he knew that wgeurts was a very likely lynch that day.
He did it again here.
And again here.

Yes, it occurred to me, but this is combined with everything else. And this is COMBINED with my really strong gutread on him that's been present from the beginning.

What's the alternative to getting acryon lynched? Scum has to survive. Town doesn't.

He's putting things off because he's been really busy this week. This is a sitewide 'putting things off'. Don't misrep that.

Edit: hang on