Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not perfect. Is that what you want? Who would you have preferred I vote back then?

I have no idea what to say to this

[borkjerfkin]

geurts has rolefished under the guise of a newbtown persona before?

I'll humor this I suppose: show me.

[borkjerfkin]

What are your thoughts on the Newbie case other than just thinking I'm scum?

That I hate posts that are made with the explicit purpose of itemizing a person's manifest of contributions and applying scum motivation to most of them because they are generally mired in confbias and as such hard to distinguish the alignment of the person writing them?

Like I've said to pretty much every other person in the game who has attempted to make one

[borkjerfkin]

No, I want you to answer me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[borkjerfkin]

So you mean
kinda like
your post on me?

Nope. That one kinda grew organically. I hadn't expected to post much.

[borkjerfkin]

So not only is that wgeurts like actually unambiguously blatantly rolefishing (which he did not do here, at least at the point you voted him and even after that it was 'you're either masons or scum' and he had masons on the brain because you brought it up)

But all the stuff with wguerts happened early D1 of this game (Mid Oct.) and all the stack the deck stuff happened Nov. +, much less even getting into how you'd have known that wgeurts was scum in that game yet

As such, anything that happened in stack the deck could not have informed anything you did in this game.

So I kinda feel like you're just lying to me now

Gotta go, back tonight.

[borkjerfkin]

And I townread [wgeurts] that game because I assumed he was being newbtown going by his meta.

Still feel like this is a scumslip and I wish other people would take their blinders off.

If

1) you townread him that game because you assumed he was newbtown going by his meta
and
2) that game happened

after

this one for all intents and purposes with you reading wgeurts

Then why didn't you treat this game like you

later

treated that one if you were willing to trust his meta there? You had no instance of him flipping scum in the latter game to inform this game. Conversely, you had no reason NOT to be just as suspicious of him in that game as you were in this game if you're just naturally suspicious like that, because he hadn't flipped here. Your retroactive justification doesn't even make any sense for you to believe to be true (even if it weren't already utterly ridiculous).

Your actions suggest that what is actually different between the two games is your alignment and the amount of information available to you. If you

knew

he was town in this game the whole time, and, just as germane, the other game was actually your first attempt to legitimately read him (as your reference to the second game without any hint of being wary about your read in this game would indicate), then your actions in the other game

do

make sense.

They also suggest you're lying about what actually happened in this game. You seriously using the other game as retroactive justification because he happened to flip scum there, a fact you had no idea about at the time since you were town there, in a situation that is markedly different from this one even just going by my 30 second smell test, is

insane

, and I think you screwed up, forgot the timing, and are trying to cover for yourself.

[borkjerfkin]

You're the one that voted Wisdom for trying to draw associatives.

I can't emphasize how different this situation is than the wgeurts one and it's so obvious.

Wisdom was straight up saying "I am aware that these two players have an odd relationship and I do not think they are scumbuddies". I got Wisdom for this because in this setup, thinking this should make town clam up and wonder about their being masons.

wgeurts wasn't saying anything like that at all. He was saying pretty much the opposite of that. If he thought whoever he was calling scumbuddies were actually masons together he showed no evidence of it in that post - that is entirely an inference that Mathdino made about Wguerts straight up lying about what he was getting at, rather than the subtle cognitive dissonance I pointed out with Wisdom.

[borkjerfkin]

It's because he's talking about claiming and information in a "I'm scum and I want moar info" type way.

That's just wgeurts.

He needs to work on not being so claimhappy but that's not a scumtell for him.

Unless you saw something else. ISO him and see what you find?

This was your attitude toward Wgeurts in the other game and it is entirely reasonable; I'd expect no less here.

[borkjerfkin]

You've never answered me on this question and I really do want to know this: Who would you have had me vote back then? A lurker? Someone on V/LA? Wisdom, one of the most active players before he'd done anything off?

I don't think answering this question is going to advance the gamestate because the answer is only relevant if you're town and as such I am ignoring it.

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't want to make the same mistake I did here

And you knew you were making a mistake here how exactly?
Why not meta him in this game (you even bring up the dichotomy between newb-town and scum faking that, seems like a good time to meta)

[borkjerfkin]

It's a rhetorical question that you choose to not answer in favour of tunneling, essentially.

It's a rhetorical question with the answer being "vote the person that makes it obvious to me what your alignment is" and as such isn't very useful as an after the fact exercise.

[borkjerfkin]

Brother, you're slamming me for having suspicions that were shared by a whole lot of people that were built on very legitimate reasons. If you were there, would you really have defended what wgeurts was doing?

I remember silverwolf and TTH both denouncing it
BMWS reason for voting him had nothing to do with that
Newbie only supported it after 182 happened which was way after you voted and is a response I feel you goaded him into.

[borkjerfkin]

Edit: A question that you're throwing out as a result of tunneling. Who would town-me, reasonable-me, me-that-uses-perfect-logic vote?

Dude I don't care. It's not pertinent. TTH and Silverwolf thought what you said was bollocks and they were town so who cares.

[borkjerfkin]

Edit2: Right. I goaded him into asking me if I was a mason. Makes sense.

Actually, your 'you're mason fishing aren't you?' question is ironically more rolefishy than what you were accusing him of doing, because his answer (or tone of answer) may have varied depending on if he was one or not

[borkjerfkin]

Who I choose to meta is pretty much determined by the surety of my reads

"Capable of pretending to be town" sounds like a real slam dunk read in either direction, yeah.

[borkjerfkin]

Why do you find it so odd that I didn't meta wgeurts

Cause you did in the later game?

[borkjerfkin]

Have you actually considered my Newbie case?

I don't see anything that you'd mentioned that you're able to quantify how more likely it is coming from scum than town. Just "here is X, and here is a narrative that describes why scum might have done X". That isn't enough. Why wouldn't / is it not likely that town would have done X?

The whole thing about "Newbie voted Wisdom because she knew Wisdom was scum since Wisdom wasn't actually scummy D1" made me throw up in my mouth a little. That is a burden of proof that you haven't even come close to meeting.

[borkjerfkin]

k. so.
Case 1: I'm town and tunneling wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question (it was rhetorical) because I think he's scum and lying.
Case 2: I'm scum and jumping on wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question because why would town try to do that?
It was a rhetorical question that he was going to answer 'no' to either way.

Well duh, but I don't expect a one word response. They'll say 'no', but it's how they say no (flippant?/alarmed?/guarded?) that can give a tell. Kinda like how mafia works in general.

Need to sleep. This is clogging the thread anyway.

[borkjerfkin]

That is a burden of proof that you haven't even come close to meeting.

Maybe more pertinent is that it relies on your subjective interpretation of Wisdom's scumminess that you're basically saying is objectively correct.
Or was TTH tunneling the shit out of Wisdom D1 also scum motivated? Oh it wasn't? Yeah.

Anyway sleep for realizes now.

[borkjerfkin]

Newbie was the first person to write a case and provide a ton of reasons on why Wisdom was scum. TTH's vote was explicitly a gutread. Her later tunneling didn't come until after Newbie.

So this isn't TTH saying that Newbie is giving the exact same argument she was?

Well, this sounds familiar. I wonder where I heard it before...
Just in case anyone's interested, this general trend of posting continues right up to the last few Wisdom posts, especially the one categorizing wgeurt's self-vote as some kind of grey-area "overreaction." There's a lot of wishy-washy-ness (I know that's not a word, but it's too late at night for me to care) on wgeurts when he's the clear favorite wagon today. I think he's not wanting to close off the possibility of joining the wagon but at the same time he doesn't want to look overeager.

Your "Wisdom wasn't scummy and Newbie is scummy for suspecting him" point is scummy by itself, but with this it's both scummy AND factually inaccurate.

(inb4 you change the argument to "Newbie is scum for parroting TTH")

[borkjerfkin]

Uh, not sure if you caught this, but I think about 4 people asked him to give his reads and explain who he thought was scum... What, did you expect him to FoS you and Victor with a tr-tr-trembling...voice?

I don't like this. I see nothing between your last post 256and the above that would tip your read on wgeurts from suspicious to lynchworthy.

The pressure getting to you, Wisdom? 2 people suspect you for wishiwashiness and you cave in and hop on the wagon?
I still think wgeurts is scum. But regardless of his alignment, I'm seeing some merit in

FoSing: Wisdom

.

mod edit: fixed link.

So for what values of D1 is this post ok but newbie is scummy for suspecting Wisdom?

or did the 30 posts in between 237 and 267 just totes flip the gamestate on its head?

[borkjerfkin]

Guys i don't know what else to do here.
Mathdino's scum. there are inconsistencies all over his iso.

What else do you guys want?
Newbie why are you utterly ignoring this exchange?

[borkjerfkin]

Bork, I know you said that he is scum, but how confident would you say you are on it at this point, if you had to pick a percentage?

I don't know that I want to play that game. Decide for yourself if my arguments have merit, or discuss why you think he's town if you're able to do a hard reset first.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm fairly confident. We get 2 shots at this and he's my #1.

Relook at Silverwolf's ISO actually - she was quite suspicious of him too.

[borkjerfkin]

and you're sure it's not bmws?

gun to my head i'd pick newbie right now but i have the capacity to vote any of them if i am left alive tomorrow and not having to deal with the third will be a huge boon to my trajectory.

[borkjerfkin]

then it's kinda out of my hands anyway? I don't want to be blindly sheeped tomorrow if I'm dead, I want town to reevaluate.

If it isn't you, the fact that acryon voted BMWS first and newbie second suggests acryon is town - it's somewhat less likely that scum-acryon knew that newbie was favoring bmws at that point.

[borkjerfkin]

I've shouldered a lot of personal responsibility from town losses in the past (even getting demoralized enough to almost quit the site) when I've been the (sometimes de-facto) town leader and let town down the wrong path.

I'm not letting myself go down that road anymore. I'm doing the best I can with what I have available, but people left alive ahead of me need to use their brains too if I turn out to be wrong. That's just how it is.

[borkjerfkin]

bork, can you unvote like now? I am not going to lose this game because someone PoE'd a newbie out of the realm of possibility of being scum.

No.

[borkjerfkin]

I am reasonably certain it's Newbie if it's not you.

[borkjerfkin]

acryon has been really town today.

[borkjerfkin]

newbie has not so much

[borkjerfkin]

Also, I think you're wrong about both me and mathdino.

That's nice; articulate it.

[borkjerfkin]

For mathdino, I just have a strong gut feeling that he's town. Everything from him seems genuine. Yeah, he did end up contradicting himself, but that's because he pulled a confirmation bias.

Seems we're at a standstill then.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm an awkwardly emotional guy. And I'd prefer my first loss to be a game I played poorly.

Perspective slip

You know how getting lynched today is a definite loss?

It's if you're scum

[borkjerfkin]

mathdino, what I don't understand is why you're not trying to get a vote started on who you think is scummy.

This is the stuff that is kinda irking me from Newbie. Her read on you seems a bit sticky in contrast to all the things she's pointing out as objectionable from you

[borkjerfkin]

I actually agree in that regard. I don't have anything else to say right now.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not giving out an order.

[borkjerfkin]

also 162 doesn't naturally lend itself to an accusation of rolefishing, a fact that keeps constantly getting overlooked here - he was making a pre-flip associative connection by his own admission. There's no basis to even wonder "is he trying to fake being newbtown by hunting masons" because there's no fucking reason to think he's hunting masons; he's just scumhunting. Wgeurts was even confused by this. He never brought up masons at that point.

Mathdino

did.

Then Mathdino linked me to stack the deck which was basically Wgeurts going 'which one y'all motherfuckers is the vig' like 60 times and pretending like that's the same shit

[borkjerfkin]

"Riddleton's case elaborated on it further and his other points were good as well. After that, I noticed that it seemed some people were throwing out other names (riddleton and Constantine for example) to get away from the VD lynch. That further cemented my suspicion."

what is intrinsically weird about this?

It's essentially the same thing constantine was saying: people were trying to build counterwagons to vic.

[borkjerfkin]

I think that's a pretty commonly held belief - a counterwagon rising rapidly to combat an existing wagon suggests that the initial wagon was on scum and the counterwagon is on town.

I think it's a bit pseudosciency (certainly nothing to be used to blind someone) in that it isn't backed up with hard data but I don't think newbie is scummy for thinking this (and you can see both constantine and tth I believe spoke to the same point)

[borkjerfkin]

Wisdom sowing the seeds of discord; this whole suggestion to lynch Riddleton is a ridiculous ruse to cause confusion and force the town into making a hasty, bad decision.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm good with my Victor vote.

I still feel more comfortable lynching victor, and I agree with newbie about their being resistance.
While I'm more than happy to deadline lynch riddleton, there's just this off feeling that it's a counter wagon.

[borkjerfkin]

Md: gun to your head, who ya got?

[borkjerfkin]

Newbie, acryon, BMWS, myself.

Or rather: is this still accurate?

[borkjerfkin]

Would not mind the three of you working through bmws read rest of today without my input (I think he is town)

[borkjerfkin]

I downgraded the hell out of constantine later but I think that got lost in the shuffle

[borkjerfkin]

As in didnt want to lynch him

[borkjerfkin]

I think all my lack of death does is point to acryon town if even that. I think any scum in my 2nd or lowest tier should have liked their chances of at least making it to lylo

[borkjerfkin]

sorry man, but we both know down this road leads wifom and is such I must discount it

See the end of open 459

[borkjerfkin]

I also don't feel comfortable just blindly agreeing to lynching someone tomorrow if MD flips town.

Good!

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah it totes couldn't be md in a million years

[borkjerfkin]

I want you to sell the hell out of bmws town.

[borkjerfkin]

I already know where you stand on everything so *shrug*

Honestly I want more involvement from other slots. Esp. Bmws

It is weird that I cannot come close to a consensus on reads with newbie.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not sure which of you is worse here. The guy who convinced himself that my play and my being wrong is scummy because he can't see anyone else being scum, or the guy who sheeps the first one.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm on mobile so you'll probably need to give me a few hours, but I'm fine indulging in this exercise

[borkjerfkin]

this day phase is so fucking weird

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah he actually pmed me that he was doing that so that I could fakeclaim with impunity

[borkjerfkin]

HEY ITS THE SHIT IVE BEEN SAYING ALL GAME DAY

WOW

[borkjerfkin]

Like why have you been ignoring the fuck out of my arguments then coming out with the same shit as if you thought of it

[borkjerfkin]

I wasn't ignoring your arguments. I just didn't know he had no scummy reads on the other two at all.

He was saying the opposite of that and you misinterpreted, so...

[borkjerfkin]

as far as I'm concerned lynch these guys in either order

jesus christ

[borkjerfkin]

If Math had not attempted to use the "Wgeurts retroactive paranoia via blatant rolefishing

from the future

=> inference for super subtle mason fishing if you squint just the right way" argument

I'd hop on newbie right now

But that was pretty indefensible to me

[borkjerfkin]

And yet this being the straw that broke the camel's back for Newbie 180ing on Math is just as bizarre

[borkjerfkin]

I think I'm sticking to my guns.

I'll let BMWS decide it.

[borkjerfkin]

zzzzzz

[borkjerfkin]

i need an adult

[borkjerfkin]

like newbie you're acting like a total dipshit and i see no trajectory

why is that

[borkjerfkin]

also inb4 we get no post from bmws ever again and we wait on replacement and get no extension cause mods can just make up whatever rules about deadlines they want without consultation

[borkjerfkin]

Since you think bmws certainly isn't scum, you can give a case on acryon.

you think math is town, why the fuck won't you even attempt to engage him on bmws?

[borkjerfkin]

@bork: Let's do this exercise again. Assume I'm town. What do you make of the convo I had with acryon followed by his unvote? Lemme know if you want me to say what I think first; I ask because I'm digging myself in a hole of WIFOM.

what did you want from me on this?

I didn't think there was anything particularly scummy about his engagement with you

[borkjerfkin]

Since you think bmws certainly isn't scum, you can give a case on acryon.

you think math is town, why the fuck won't you even attempt to engage him on bmws?

And I'm not taking "nobody agrees with me so it doesn't matter what I say" as an answer

nobody agrees with you because you're not fucking saying anything interesting

[borkjerfkin]

Like I'm so fucking sick of detached town pushing vanity cases and not attempting to appeal to anyone

It's the one thing that makes me NOT want to vote mathdino because he actually knows how to do that

but his pushes were ass and he's been what I feel is dishonest about why so here we are

meanwhile everyone else is either not posting or not making trajectory apparent and it's frustrating as fuck

if you're town, fuck off and play ball with me. engage my points. have a fucking conversation.

[borkjerfkin]

K. And I think you're being bullheaded on the mathdino lynch.

MAYBE YOU COULD FUCKING ENGAGE ME ON WHY YOU THINK THAT IS

[borkjerfkin]

like I've attempted to elicit from you the whole fucking day

[borkjerfkin]

If you've got any questions, I'm open.

If you're me: what do

you

do here?

[borkjerfkin]

Because I'm trying to reevaluate constantly and whoever didn't NK me thought I was a fucking schlub who wouldn't

so be frank with me

[borkjerfkin]

I think a little rage is healthy now and then

especially when people are being opaque

but if you haven't seen me attempt that today then I don't know what to tell you

[borkjerfkin]

I guess you missed these two posts or you just didn't read them.

The thing is though, why would mathdino go after me when he was declaring me town at the very beginning after the wgeurts/Constantine mod kill? He could've kept it that way and went after an easier target. It just doesn't add up.

UNVOTE:

I know it's annoying to be back where we started, but it wouldn't make sense for mathdino to draw things out like this if he was mafia. It has to be one of acryon or bmws. I'm probably getting lynched anyway so good luck to whoever ends up in lylo.

Or that literally just happened in an internal monologue with you today and has nothing to do with why you ignored everything I said today up until now and suddenly voted him for something that was objectively not what you thought it was

[borkjerfkin]

Like if you're willing to suddenly go after him for something as tenuous as that, you are really out of place calling me bullheaded for suspecting him

so talk to me why you

weren't

before that

[borkjerfkin]

I want to believe acryon's not just coasting through this as a fencesitter knowing Newbie and I are probably gonna be lynched in succession. Reading through him D4 again.

i think this just unequivocally prove bmws is town the way pretty much everyone has shied away from him at some point without him doing a damn thing

[borkjerfkin]

I already said why a while back. His actions just came off genuine and the fact that he put in work that I don't think scum would do.

That was nebulous as hell back then and still is now and you are offering me nothing other than your own personal gut which I can do nothing useful with

but I'm bullheaded

[borkjerfkin]

Like I can believe that you legitimately believe that

It's harder for me to buy that you think that should convince me

[borkjerfkin]

especially if you've been reading the thread today

[borkjerfkin]

which, at times, i kinda doubt you have

[borkjerfkin]

I want to believe acryon's not just coasting through this as a fencesitter knowing Newbie and I are probably gonna be lynched in succession. Reading through him D4 again.

meanwhile I still feel like this is opportunism because your constant opinion switches (esp. regard to this slot) seem to have no identifiable catalyst from acryon himself

[borkjerfkin]

Edit: I stop raging and attempt diplomacy with Newbie and acryon.

and I mean really if one of them is scum how is this course of action gonna clue me into it more easily?

[borkjerfkin]

Edit: Talking to them about each other, presumably.

That quickly turns into a game of 'who is better at arguing'

if only that were indicative of alignment

[borkjerfkin]

It's kind of obnoxious that you're mad that I can't convince you to unvote mathdino.

I'm mad that you haven't really thought to try, and there are reasons aside from my Mathdino read why I might want you to attempt that

Basically, I don't think the way he came to his conclusions were scum-motivated.

Can you please at least attempt to go into detail?

[borkjerfkin]

Yet talking and arguing to me became indicative of alignment.

With the caveat that I dredged up early game stuff, sure.

Also there is a semantic argument about what 'diplomacy' means but I don't really find it interesting

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

there square fucking one because I owe it to the game to reset

come at me with your stuff

[borkjerfkin]

i dunno

anyone with anything

[borkjerfkin]

i have the open mind of a child or some shit

[borkjerfkin]

like

three out of the four of you are on my team

and i'm just not feeling it and that's sad

[borkjerfkin]

I think the point was to say that it is after all possible for wgeurts to do something like that and prove his point was totally unfounded.

Do something like what? Because that is the crux of the issue here. What exactly had Wgeurts really done rolefishing-wise by 162?

If you can give me a good reason why MD was paranoid here because of maybe-rolefishing-with-a-hefty-dose-of-inference but was not in the

later

game (especially with the lack of a townflip here at this point) with SUPER-OBVIOUS-AND-BLATANT-AND-EXPLICIT rolefishing then I am all ears

fuck did I not want to rehash this again ugh

[borkjerfkin]

and Wgeurts' 172 is a completely organic 'the fuck?' response to that and he just plods ahead with it

[borkjerfkin]

what the hell does 'link' mean in context that even hints at 'mason' and not 'scumbuddy'

i mean come on, he even elaborates in context in the same goddamn sentence

[borkjerfkin]

111 is a non-attack
116 is a hedge, but the hedge is against the fact that he's defensive. Not scummy to me but whatever.
139 is a balk at an apparent OMGUS
161 is a balk at showing inconsistency wrt self-meta

i don't care about anything that came after 162 because that obviously didn't influence 162

this is all just 'reasons for a scumread' and that's fine, but nothing about any of that sets off anything that should make 162 inherently prone to accusations of mason fishing and I think that was a terrible inference to make there regardless of what the previous read was on the slot. It was definitely a bad reason for the vote switch. Both TTH and Silverwolf reacted negatively to that point and wgeurts just seemed confused by it. I really don't know what else to say about it.

[borkjerfkin]

Right, but it's not like wgeurts would elaborate that he was masonfishing. He probably felt that last part was fluff since I wouldn't flip scum.

Are you even listening to yourself? He was town; he had no fucking idea what you'd flip.

[borkjerfkin]

Right, but it's not like wgeurts would elaborate that he was masonfishing. He probably felt that last part was fluff since I wouldn't flip scum.

Like what does this even mean? Even if I didn't know he was town, you have to jump through hoops to even get to a 'I'm masonfishing' interpretation there at all, and I don't see how anything Wgeurts did prior to that point at all supports that premise unless you argue that it's ok cause Mathdino was confbiasing due to his scumread.

p-edit: yes I can gather that this is his argument since it is the only even remotely sane one coming from town.

My argument is, and has always been, that the amount of confbias needed to genuinely interpret Wgeurts' 140 like Mathdino did to make post 162 stretches his credibility to the point that I think it is much, much more likely that he was fabricating the read. I just don't believe he genuinely thought that's what Wguerts was doing; it's pretty obvious to me that it wasn't, and it was obvious to TTH and Silverwolf too.

The fact that he brought Stack the Deck into it to prove a point is

even more scummy

because it is situationally wrong for so many reasons that I refuse to rehash.

I'm done for tonight too - I can't hammer this point any harder.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: mathdino

[borkjerfkin]

why has your vote been sticky on newbie ever since 2155?

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: newbie

[borkjerfkin]

if not and i'm alive i'm doing another hard reset

[borkjerfkin]

it's bad site etiquette to post before the mod declares game over

[borkjerfkin]

and I'm just not feeling that we hit scum anyway

[borkjerfkin]

don't bother.

The whole thing has been about my twilight read on bmws. I think if I put my hubris aside and discount that then things become more clear.

Mathdino kill implicates no one.

Tth thought bmws was scum
Mala did too.
they're dead. Im not.

This is the reevaluate play. And hopefully the right one.

Either way please don't troll me.

VOTE: bmws

Yolo

[borkjerfkin]

dude post something

[borkjerfkin]

you played extremely well. gg.

[borkjerfkin]

time for a long break from mafia

[borkjerfkin]

I've shouldered a lot of personal responsibility from town losses in the past (even getting demoralized enough to almost quit the site) when I've been the (sometimes de-facto) town leader and let town down the wrong path.

I'm not letting myself go down that road anymore. I'm doing the best I can with what I have available, but people left alive ahead of me need to use their brains too if I turn out to be wrong. That's just how it is.

[borkjerfkin]

lessons learned:

1) fuck NKA
2) be better at reading mathdino

[borkjerfkin]

I am being kept alive because my reads are (were?) wrong.

Also this game has set a new precedent for people doing stupid shit

So thanks for that.

Is what I meant.

This actually turned out not to be true.

[borkjerfkin]

You played really well and I went down a rabbit hole that I shouldn't have gone down.

I think if you hadn't busted out stack the deck I may have righted myself. I don't know.

[borkjerfkin]

This was Schrödinger's LyLo anyway. I don't win LyLos. If I'd have picked acryon he'd have been town.

[borkjerfkin]

so is the dead thread just people yelling at me?

I'm used to that

[borkjerfkin]

I was the only one yelling at you in the dead thread.

I'm ok with that. You were like objectively obvtown for 95% of the game I'm just a dummy.

Wgeurts was really obviously not mason fishing tho.

[borkjerfkin]

you know what else this means though?

[borkjerfkin]

I hope this is an example to follow my wagons in the future. As policy, you should only start wagons on people off the wagon, the day immediately after lynching scum.
Acyron and Mathdino, one of which is confirmed scum, should be our first and foremost priorities.
VOTE: Acyon

ahhhhhhhhhhh

[borkjerfkin]

I'd agree he was right for the wrong reasons.

[borkjerfkin]

woo I'm already over this game.

All my slamdunk townslips were correct and I threw them away one by one

p-edit: lol was just saying that too

[borkjerfkin]

I'll at least interrogate wisdom tomorrow

anyway here's what I have

Town (S -> W): bmws, tth, wgeurts, mathdino, constantine
Null: acryon, newbie
Scum (S -> W): riddleton, wisdom (super weak)

I'll throw you guys in somewhere if I'm forced to give reads to the thread

Let me know if either of you strongly disagree with any of these

Was my "I just read the game" post in the mason pt

[borkjerfkin]

like 0 scum in my townreads

I fucking never do that

[borkjerfkin]

mason thread is mostly me talking to myself

[borkjerfkin]

even on N1

[borkjerfkin]

I think I kinda got lucky on Wisdom. The best point on Wisdom was his awkward interaction with Vic wagon

[borkjerfkin]

The manner in which Wisdom defended Vic is a bit troubling - he goes through a lot of trouble to get pressure off Vic without really defending Vic other than this soft 'Vic is lynchbait' shit without really going into why he thinks that is

If Wisdom had ramped up the defense as Vic got run up it might actually be indicative that he really thought that, but he instead tried to just counterwagon people instead. It's something to look at at least. I generally scumread Wisdom every game.

Yeah look at Wisdom's 740, that doesn't jibe at all with anything Wisdom previous said about Victor

everything wisdom posts gives me herpes

if wisdom dies tonight, TTH is scum. TTH thinks wisdom is a mason. [later recanted this]

actually retract that; that cat got out of the bag

but if wisdom is town he might get NKed and that would be fucking awesome

getting cold feet on wisdom right now

[borkjerfkin]

Did anyone notice the twilight interaction? That's the other thing I really want to know. You'd think Mala would've died N1 since she softclaimed pretty hard.

I did but confbias so *shrug*

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't want to townread him too hard early on but every single thing he said pinged me as town and honest him since I know his writing style. That's the other reason I was shouting at bork, because BMWS town was just so goddamn obvious but only to me

yeah I threw out the townslip as an outlier and was left with "BMWS commentator mode"

I actually read a LOT overnight as I thought scum might leave me alive, so don't think I voted in a bout of passion or anything.

[borkjerfkin]

My problem was that I was considering the newbie townflip at that point but not the mathdino townflip

[borkjerfkin]

Sorry for the wall in advance.

Splitting this up into a few sections to keep it organized/focused on things I think are notable.

Early Game/Wgeurts Questioning

-39 was basically just a re-wording of my initial questioning of Victor’s question. I didn’t really think much of it at the time, but now it seems like may have been trying to gain some town-cred by calling out Victor even though I already did that. It looks like it worked because in 46 Mathdino seems to give him some of that cred.
-64 we see Wisdom seconding a question from wgeurts about why I thought the vote on him may be justified. I thought it was painfully obvious to everyone but wgeurts why people might be suspecting him given his erratic play. This made sense coming from someone who is new, but looking at it from Wisdom now seems fabricated. I think he should have known better.
-In 103, he questions wgeurts on unvoting him. This is one of those things that I think isn’t inherently scummy, but if you are looking at it being done by potential scum, it looks really scummy.
-108 is another example of this I think. He questions TTH this time about not engaging him directly. He is very proactive in his defense.
-110 and 114 are more of the same. Now that I’m reading through it again, all of these types of posts are really rubbing me the wrong way. I’m still don’t know that they point to him being scum, but they do help prop up a scum-case on him I think.
-In 188, he calls for wgeurts to stop the mason-talk, which is pro-town, but he does so after Mathdino already calls it out, so it’s hard to give him real town-points for it.
-299 he begins to go after SW for defending him. I’m all for looking into those appearing to WK you as scum, but the way he is going about it does seem a little too aggressive to be genuine.

Push on SW

-I actually agreed with the push on SW, as I joined in as well. If Wisdom is scum, there is still a chance, I think, that this was a bus. It did feel quite genuine, but I don’t want to rule it out just because it felt good.
-346 pings as he says he will self-vote over a NL. This is not town-motivated. Lynching a random person is better than a NL, but if you are town, then lynching what is a confirmed town to you is not better than a NL.

Miscellaneous

-Looking at this vote-count, I think there is a

very

good chance that there was some bussing going on:
Wisdom (4) - TellTaleHeart, wgeurts, SilverWolf, Newbie
wgeurts (4) - VictorDeAngelo, blindmewithscience, Wisdom, Mathdino
VictorDeAngelo (1) - acryon
acryon (1) – Malakittens
I’m not going to speculate pre-flip, but I wanted to make a note for future reference if Wisdom does end up being the lynch and flips scum.
-In the VC in 400, I don’t know how likely it is that 2+ scum would be on the wgeurts wagon at that point in time. I’m certainly not saying it’s impossible, but my initial thought on it is that this gives Wisdom some town-points.

Mala/Mid-game

-In 354, I made a far-fetched (and I admitted it as such) post about a potential Mala coaching wgeurts situation. I think most people recognized this as some wild speculation (as it was), but Wisdom jumped on it in 355.
-Then in 404, he sort of begins to run with it by questioning Mala on her reads, although he hadn’t really engaged her much at all before now.
-In 590/593 he votes and pushes for more info from Mala. I actually liked this, because Mala had been pretty weak with her reasoning.
-In 610 Wisdom mentions masons maybe voting each other to muddy the waters, and this doesn’t really make any sense at all. Town don’t vote players who are confirmed town to them; they either vote scum or vote to pressure those they are unsure about. Very weird comment to make, especially from someone with a good amount of experience.
-614 he gets weirdly defensive toward TTH and says he is “starting to consider [him avoiding interaction with him] a scum tactic.” This just reads really awkwardly.
-666 he again is asking for people to explain town-reads on him. All of this focus on explanations for town-reading him seem to indicate a greater desire to clear himself to town than to actually find scum. It isn’t scummy to be concerned about what people think of you, but the degree to which he has focused on it is suspect.

Late-game

-696 and [/post]740[/post] do read like scum trying to protect their buddy. The soft-defense definitely pings a bit.
-752 and 755 do venture into hard-defending territory, but it is quickly backed off in 760 where he concedes that Victor did some weird things.
-I agreed with a lot of his pushing on Constantine, and still do.
-His post in 786 pings. He asks both myself and Mathdino, knowing that we shared similar views on SW in the past, so it seems like he could be trying to keep us strung along behind him.
-1084 is super weird. “The remaining scum is mala and most likely acryon”. What?? He had never even really mentioned me before that point and now I am most likely scum?
-1099 is just so weak. He says I am scum simply due to PoE, but could also be N_M or BMWS. This is just so confusing. His reasoning for thinking any of me/MMWS/N_M is nonexistent.

The fact that I have agreed with more than one of the wagons he was pushing makes me obviously reluctant to push him over someone I have completely disagreed with(Constantine), but it does appear that there is a very good chance he is scum. I think it is an absolute certainty that one of Wisdom/Riddleton/Constantine is scum, and very probably that 2 are scum.

VOTE: Wisdom

I'm a little worried about this post.

Dude was defending wisdom all game then as soon as I spilled it and Mathdino jumped on, it's case time

sigh

this was 'I'm panicking and bussing you" so much

[borkjerfkin]

I'm disappointed it turned out like this.

Good game, everyone.

You played extremely well

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't even read Wisdom's post lynch thoughts and wasn't going to unless he flipped town

[borkjerfkin]

acryon is trolling you, town won

wp bmws, you tried :/

I don't know why you'd pull that after micro 151 where I've shown that I'm really sensitive to this kind of thing unless you just are trying to be a jerk for no reason

[borkjerfkin]

I don't mind him claiming scum when the game was 100% over (this is an open)

But others probably should've stayed out of thread

[borkjerfkin]

thanks for the game

[borkjerfkin]

So guys, this is my first game on this site. Any advice?

Omit stuff where you summarize what happened as the majority of your posts - people will latch onto that and try to say that you're not contributing analysis.

[borkjerfkin]

I refuse to hold anyone accountable for what happens with their attempt to cope with incomplete information

(except myself, but that's a different thing)

[borkjerfkin]

don't fucking self hammer as town.

There might be a niche situation where it makes sense
this was NOT that situation.

[borkjerfkin]

not mislynching you would've amounted to a hell of a lot

[borkjerfkin]

I seriously wish people would not write cases. If you have to go back and try to find reasons to fit a conclusion that you've already decided on, which is nearly always the case when 'case-building', you are doing something wrong.

Hell I was even starting to do it unconsciously with MD and lo and behold, I was wrong

[borkjerfkin]

Cuz ima baddie