Capcom Crossover Chaos - GAME OVER~

[The Will of Heaven]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

[The Will of Heaven]

1. a huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup spec, weak lines of questioning that don't actually lead anywhere, or anything else;
2. consistent attempts to appeal to other players;
3. the way he's handling the shos/Skitty push;
4. a large amount of general specious argumentation;
5. the fact he's demonstrated a tendency to play differently than this as town.

Here's the tl;dr of your argument.

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5. There are players who focus on setup spec and don't have the deepest scum hunting early (god knows I basically can only use associative tells on almost all players). There are players who focus more on working with others than driving their own agenda (you sure as hell would never call NS scum for appealing to Nacho/mollie/etc). There are players who make pedantic arguments (lol Wisdom). Not sure if pedantic is the right word, but specious sure as fuck isn't (and your spamming of it reminds me again of mastin-scum "say this thing over and over again until people believe it").

So your arguments about why I'm scum are all ultimately contingent on #5. That makes it a meta case. It also makes it a meta case that doesn't make sense when the points you bring up are all points that periodically occur in my town game based on the gamestate.

A huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup speculation has scum motivation because it allows scum to post without giving away alignment-relevant information. Scumhunting is something that scum are less likely to do well as opposed to town because a town's motivation to post is to catch and kill scum, and scumhunting is the primary method of moving towards this purpose. This is a general tell. This tell does not need meta in order to make it valid.

Consistent attempts to appeal to other players is scummy because it gains you friends, and friends are less likely to lynch you. This has more scum motivation than town motivation again because scum's primary motivation is to survive while town's primary motivation is to hunt and kill scum. Still doesn't need meta to make it valid.

Shallow arguments show scum motivation because scum are, in general, expected to produce something. The shallower an argument is, the easier it is to fake while the deeper an argument is, the harder it is to fake. Because a town's every moment should be guided by finding and killing scum, their strongest moments should be in their arguments and in their searching as opposed to everything else: weak searching implies primary motivation being centered around something else.

All of those things can stand on their own. Adding meta to these points is important since they are all general scum trends and tailoring them specifically to a player can make these things stronger or weaker: that doesn't mean that making a case based on these points is meta and it sure as hell doesn't mean they need meta to stand.

[The Will of Heaven]

you called my case "meta" (1091) ever since I first posted my case (936). there is nothing in the case that relates to meta, save for the end where I point out you can do a _lot_ better than this as town - and that was in no way the "crux" of my case. everything else was based on motivation and is valid even without comparing it to anything.

It actually is.

Because what you posted about me could have been said for literally anyone else sans like 5 players.

Don't think this matters at all? If two players do something scummy, you can choose one over the other for things other than meta.
There are also things in those three points (a large lack of scumhunting, a large amount of specious argumentation) that suggest different magnitudes and differentiate you from other players.

[adorkable]

seriously though, it's getting really annoying.

Someone of unconfirmed alignment using meta arguments to say why someone else of unconfirmed alignment is scum/is town/is a meat-popsicle-jester-vig-cop means essentially nothing to me. I'm not going to read a huge backlog of games to independently verify the claimed meta and

even if I did

I don't think meta is a very strong scumhunting tool anyway because it can be changed and manipulated the second the person is aware of it.

I would have just let this be and chalked it up to differences in playstyle but now this is twoh, bro, piegami, mollie, and probably other people who I'm forgetting doing this, all of whom are pretty loud voices in the game and it's getting way out of hand.

Other than this I don't really have anything new to say. Nothing new has happened, really. I've given up on trying to sort out piegami/bro clusterfuck for now, I want to take another look at TWOH and mental isos but the length of them is daunting me, my hydra partner hasn't done pretty much anything to contribute in 3-4 days, and I'm still here more out of stubbornness not to replace out of another game than an actual desire to play alone. Sooo yeah.

/frustrationpost

[BROseidon]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

I'm saying that Bulba may have thought the neighbors thing was bullshit b/c the characters don't have a connection, despite that being a bad heuristic to go off of in a bastard game.

[The Will of Heaven]

Also, last thing to BRO:

What do you think of Bulbazak saying that he demonstrated time and time again why what AA9 was saying was blatantly false when he'd done literally nothing of that sort before that point in his ISO?

[The Will of Heaven]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

I'm saying that Bulba may have thought the neighbors thing was bullshit b/c the characters don't have a connection, despite that being a bad heuristic to go off of in a bastard game.

It was the Sonic/Pacman claim that made Bulba believe they were more likely to be neighbors, not less.

[The Will of Heaven]

Nothing new has happened, really.

What do you think of the Bulbazak case? It is fantastically devoid of meta!

[adorkable]

I should be the one asking you why you never responded to this

I know it wasn't worded in a particularly serious manner but that doesn't mean that I was entirely un-serious about it.

(granted I kind of doubt

all

of aa9-dn-bulba could be scum together, but 2 out of 3 isn't implausible. I still need to look at dn and bulba interactions but dn <-> aa9 and aa9 <-> bulba make sense to me as of right now)

anyway, to respond more directly, I think the case is plausible and has a lot of really good logic behind it

[The Will of Heaven]

I should be the one asking you why you never responded to this

Having a strong townread on AA9 independently of any Bulbazak stuff + Bulbazak's case on AA9 being absolutely horrible (I would expect it to be better if she was actually scum and he knew it) makes me doubt this scenario very heavily.

What do you think of the DN town case? I know there are some meta aspects of it, but I find the softclaim but especially the #1887 and #1895 combo town as shit regardless of who is actually posting them.

[shos]

I should be the one asking you why you never responded to this

I know it wasn't worded in a particularly serious manner but that doesn't mean that I was entirely un-serious about it.

(granted I kind of doubt

all

of aa9-dn-bulba could be scum together, but 2 out of 3 isn't implausible. I still need to look at dn and bulba interactions but dn <-> aa9 and aa9 <-> bulba make sense to me as of right now)

anyway, to respond more directly, I think the case is plausible and has a lot of really good logic behind it

DN and Bulba fit. AA9 has done absolutely nothing bad and so far does not even resemble a scumread on my end.

[shos]

either way, looking for interactions before you have a flip is useless.

[The Will of Heaven]

Same question about DN towncase to you as well, shos.

[adorkable]

I wish you had used [ post ] [/ post] instead of making me dig those up, twoh

They're ... part of why I think DN is scum, actually. Softclaim is null, anyone and their brother can softclaim and get away with it, especially in a large bastard-mod game. To me it reads like he is freaking out before he even has a significant amount of pressure on him.

[The Will of Heaven]

Deathnote is scum as well

Can I include that in your list of reads?

look at deathnote trying to encourage my 1v1 with ms further

No I just don't like your attitude and would love to see you lose.

This pair of posts need to be more front and center in the DN discussion because they are incredibly incredibly incredibly town. It also meshes very well with DN's stated attitude earlier of liking town more because he has to worry about defending himself less "so you guys either believe me or push a wasteful lynch", which tells me he enjoys using his town flip/his status as town as a middle finger to others. This is the epitome of that attitude and I seriously can't see DN faking something like this ever, which knocks him up to one of my strongest townreads.

These two posts? It doesn't seem like "freaking out", considering Wisdom adding DN to list of suspects was an afterthought and I think the tone lines up much more strongly with defiant and annoyed as opposed to panicking.

[adorkable]

"freaking out" was in reference to 2207, not those. Sorry if I was unclear.

[The Will of Heaven]

Ah. What do you think of those?

[The Will of Heaven]

seriously though, it's getting really annoying.

Someone of unconfirmed alignment using meta arguments to say why someone else of unconfirmed alignment is scum/is town/is a meat-popsicle-jester-vig-cop means essentially nothing to me. I'm not going to read a huge backlog of games to independently verify the claimed meta and

even if I did

I don't think meta is a very strong scumhunting tool anyway because it can be changed and manipulated the second the person is aware of it.

I would have just let this be and chalked it up to differences in playstyle but now this is twoh, bro, piegami, mollie, and probably other people who I'm forgetting doing this, all of whom are pretty loud voices in the game and it's getting way out of hand.

Other than this I don't really have anything new to say. Nothing new has happened, really. I've given up on trying to sort out piegami/bro clusterfuck for now, I want to take another look at TWOH and mental isos but the length of them is daunting me, my hydra partner hasn't done pretty much anything to contribute in 3-4 days, and I'm still here more out of stubbornness not to replace out of another game than an actual desire to play alone. Sooo yeah.

/frustrationpost

Also, just out of curiosity, whose post is this?

[adorkable]

I was gonna yell at you for not reading my posts, but huh... I thought I'd written more than one line on the subject. Also I am esurio, Pie is AWOL since 1412. For another day or two past that I was giving him tl;drs of the game state and asking what he thought of posts before I made them but yesterday and today I haven't even bothered with that much

I am going to keep posting in hydra though in the hope that he'll regain interest at some point later (and hopefully before I die/also give up).

1.) What misrep? I re-isoed and saw DN-TWOH interactions, but nothing I'd call a misrep on DN.

In fact DN came out of recent posts looking really really bad; showing up just to make pot shots is not town-motivated behavior any way you slice it.

2.) Do you have a source on this? Because I don't agree. I think stubbornness is a slight town tell and that ten pages of BS was, while annoying, a

textbook

town-on-town dick waving contest.
3.) We have 2 weeks, but I get what you mean. We don't want to sit here stagnating that whole time.

AA and DN look like possible buddies based on recent posts; calling each other scum and sniping at each other but keeping their votes on other people. We would obv be willing to move our vote to DN but we don't have a problem with TWOH. If you have more reasons for suspecting TWOH than what you listed, feel free to share and we will take a look at isos.

[The Will of Heaven]

also give up

I glanced over your interactions point and still disagree but see why you think the way you do and feel better about you as a result. I'm also sorry for missing your post: I also skimmed the fuck out of the Wisdom/Metal Om dickwaving contest and missed your post completely

[Southern Belles]

I really don't care esurio my love whther or you like meta or not cos that is how I play! this is our first forum game together, now you will understand why I drive some people nuts . you got to know me first IRL so you will have a different perspective but still.

waiting on tammy to get back. I might switch to bulba I just think td is scummier but i am going to talk to tammy. I think right now td is trying to lurk out his lynch.

[adorkable]

I can't hear if you're giggling over the forum, though

Maybe all the meta-ing would mean more to me if I'd actually been around for any of these games or had my own meta knowledge to use on anyone, but I just don't play enough for that and even if I did I still think there are better ways to scumhunt. If it was really as easy as reading people by meta, this game would be won already.

Do you have your own reasons for possibly hopping on bulba or are you sheeping twoh?

[adorkable]

ok scratch that I'm perfectly capable of isoing, just lazy. I see now

[BROseidon]

Also, last thing to BRO:

What do you think of Bulbazak saying that he demonstrated time and time again why what AA9 was saying was blatantly false when he'd done literally nothing of that sort before that point in his ISO?

I'm gonna fact-check this when I have more time, since I don't remember this at all. Would do it now, but AP's on his way to go hang out.

[BROseidon]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

I'm saying that Bulba may have thought the neighbors thing was bullshit b/c the characters don't have a connection, despite that being a bad heuristic to go off of in a bastard game.

It was the Sonic/Pacman claim that made Bulba believe they were more likely to be neighbors, not less.

Too ridiculous to be made up theory?

It's sort of like the scum are on/off the survivor wagon logic. Someone could get to either conclusion with reasonable assumptions (meaning scum can fake whatever their town self would do their easily), so trying to get actionable conclusions from it is pointless.