Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over

[VictorDeAngelo]

That didn't work. Attempt #2.

Hmm-hmmm... VDA has no reads on Alchemist and me... might it be a WIFOM from him? If so, something may be true I posted earlier Today.

Ugh, I probably shouldn't have rushed the t/s list. You can both null, since I forgot about you.

then why did about 8 players have every single comment about them as scum

he's either confbiasing a few players hard or is scum setting up bad suspicions

try tracking his reads on various players if you'd like, specifically me, droog, and every lurker

go on

Except I didn't do that. For example:

"337 - MathDino - I find myself agreeing with a lot of what MathDino is saying here."

and to be honest I thought there was something positive about Droog but now I look back I can't see anything so I guess you right. Meh.

VDA was at L–1 after my vote and before Alchemist's unvote.
Does that tell us anything? Do VDA's posts during this interval tell us anything?

I find it telling you didn't annouce it as L-1. Hoping for a derp hammer perhaps?

In that case I demand a claim from the slot

Also did not notice

/phoneposting

So I should be claiming without intent to hammer because...fuck conventions?

Don't you find it strange that noone even noted (nor noticed?) it?
I hadn't announced it because I wanted to know what would happen... and this fact will be a very valuable piece of information later on, according to the forthcoming flip.

I noticed it. I waited too.

And you also didn't mention anything?

There goes the Farside townread.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm too tired for all this.

[farside22]

I have two different scum groups vda.
With day talk in this game is assume scum would think about a hammer if noted.
If no hammer I wonder why. Even if someone said player is l-1 intent to hammer I'd wonder why depending who said it.
Those are the reasons why I waited.
None of that happened, which is why my vote stays.

[Flubbernugget]

I can hammer vic but I have an adrian/alchemist/dino scumteam

[Ollie]

Hey Victor what's wrong with Mathdino trying to inject a bit of urgency? Do you want a no lynch?

Wgeurts is a non-native English speaker (nor do I), that mistake is very common amongst ESL people. And not an alignment-tell at all.

Hahah I know it's not a scum tell. It's common amongst everyone which is why it bugs me so I point it out wherever I see it as I know it's not just a typo. It's actually very common in England lol.

Victor still hasn't questioned me about anything once. Not even once. If I had a scum read on someone & they were replaced, the first thing I would do is be all over their replacement. I'd want to see if it was a case of the previous incumbent of the slot just happening to fulfill my own personal idea of what scum look like. He voted for my slot AFTER I parachuted into the game remember. It's like he already knows I'm town. What are you doing Victor?

Has anyone who is voting you questioned you - even once - personally? Why focus on Victor?

There are outstanding observations about your slot, made by a least two players off the top of my head, that are critical of your slot's play. What is it about Victor that he must direct your attention to these problems in order for you to address them?

I just explained that in my previous post. He voted for me without seeing if those 'outstanding' observations' were as a result of the other guys shitty town play or not & jumped on the biggest wagon that happened to have a new guy in the slot! & to add to that now his answer is that he thought asking me anything would be pointless.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I have two different scum groups vda.
With day talk in this game is assume scum would think about a hammer if noted.
If no hammer I wonder why. Even if someone said player is l-1 intent to hammer I'd wonder why depending who said it.
Those are the reasons why I waited.
None of that happened, which is why my vote stays.

I don't get this. Surely scumteams would be looking to get a hammer anyway (and if Ollie is scum, then the scumteam would clearly be looking to drop a hammer on me). If no one mentions it's L-1 then scum can simply hammer and then claim they thought it was L-2 or something. If I had been hammered would you have been scumreading whoever hammered automatically?

I can hammer vic but I have an adrian/alchemist/dino scumteam

So you think Dino is scum, but your happy to hammer the wagon he's been pushing.

Flubber, is yet another example of the kind of thing I would scumread any other player for.

Hey Victor what's wrong with Mathdino trying to inject a bit of urgency? Do you want a no lynch?

Funny I thought there was an alternative to either lynching me or no lynch. Now who was it? Damn, it's on the tip of my tongue... O-something.

Sigh, it'll come to me.

[farside22]

Vda: I know your not stupid here. I even remember your scum game and you know scum is way more aware of vote counts and where they stand. Unless ika or some vi is in this game I'm about 90% certain players in general are aware enough to look at votes, especially scum before voting.
What happens is telling. Do I think your town. Nope.
Do I think the lack of hammer is telling. Yup.

[Ollie]

I have two different scum groups vda.
With day talk in this game is assume scum would think about a hammer if noted.
If no hammer I wonder why. Even if someone said player is l-1 intent to hammer I'd wonder why depending who said it.
Those are the reasons why I waited.
None of that happened, which is why my vote stays.

I don't get this. Surely scumteams would be looking to get a hammer anyway (and if Ollie is scum, then the scumteam would clearly be looking to drop a hammer on me). If no one mentions it's L-1 then scum can simply hammer and then claim they thought it was L-2 or something. If I had been hammered would you have been scumreading whoever hammered automatically?

Hey Victor what's wrong with Mathdino trying to inject a bit of urgency? Do you want a no lynch?

Funny I thought there was an alternative to either lynching me or no lynch. Now who was it? Damn, it's on the tip of my tongue... O-something.

Sigh, it'll come to me.

I think what farside is saying Victor is that nobody hammered you despite there being a pretty sizeable wagon on me. When I parachuted in I was the vote leader so the confidence would surely not be very high that I'd survive if I was scum. Makes it a bit less likely I'm scum & you're not.

If he's pushing people to vote for his scum read then it forces the choice one way or the other. We see who votes for you, me or not at all.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Vda: I know your not stupid here. I even remember your scum game and you know scum is way more aware of vote counts and where they stand. Unless ika or some vi is in this game I'm about 90% certain players in general are aware enough to look at votes, especially scum before voting.
What happens is telling. Do I think your town. Nope.
Do I think the lack of hammer is telling. Yup.

That doesn't really matter here. The point is, without anyone mentioning it's L-1 someone could hammer. Could be town, could be opportunistic scum. The question is how would you know.

Furthermore, what would my townflip coupled with the lack of hammer tell you, if anything?

[Mathdino]

farside, are you speculating Victor has a buddy in {Flubbernugget, Alchemist, Adrien}?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hey Ollie, remember how I asked for you reads and why you were voting me and stuff?

Any reason you've not answered yet?

[VictorDeAngelo]

In fact Farside asked you the same question and I don't think you responded to her either.

[Ollie]

Why was there no hammer on you from the opportunistic scum though Victor? A list of my scum reads coming up soon...

[Mathdino]

I don't really find this discussion relevant, I find discussion of outside circumstances or what the scumteam as a whole's plan is to be largely irrelevant to the case.

Don't get me wrong, I think Victor's scum, but it's a very easy notion that scum is discussing staying off the wagon so they don't get the scumcred for mislynching someone.

Alternatively, both Ollie and Victor are town and scum doesn't particularly care either way but wants to stick to one to be consistent.

This is all pseudosciencey though. On an individual basis, Victor is scum. I can look at interactions after the flip but he's not inconsistent as a scumteam with the entire playerlist (I've seen this before, very good sign someone's town), so talking about everyone else and using it as an argument for his alignment isn't really useful IMO.

[Alchemist21]

Your last paragraph sounds like you've seen an associative town tell for Victor.

[farside22]

farside, are you speculating Victor has a buddy in {Flubbernugget, Alchemist, Adrien}?

Adrien is on my scum list. Flubber is in the background of null.
I am back to feeling alchemist is town. His unvote and push back feels natural.

Vda: I know your not stupid here. I even remember your scum game and you know scum is way more aware of vote counts and where they stand. Unless ika or some vi is in this game I'm about 90% certain players in general are aware enough to look at votes, especially scum before voting.
What happens is telling. Do I think your town. Nope.
Do I think the lack of hammer is telling. Yup.

That doesn't really matter here. The point is, without anyone mentioning it's L-1 someone could hammer. Could be town, could be opportunistic scum. The question is how would you know.

Furthermore, what would my townflip coupled with the lack of hammer tell you, if anything?

I hate to give any stragety away I expect at times.
I expect scum to ask if they should vote/lynch aware of the vote count.
A vote without looking can be either alignment. But frankly scum tend to act more town then town does
Yes I know that sounds bad but the number of times I see hammers without claims and town hammering is more often then I care to say.
Now that I've said this I will trust no one in this game either way

[Green Crayons]

Hey Victor what's wrong with Mathdino trying to inject a bit of urgency? Do you want a no lynch?

Wgeurts is a non-native English speaker (nor do I), that mistake is very common amongst ESL people. And not an alignment-tell at all.

Hahah I know it's not a scum tell. It's common amongst everyone which is why it bugs me so I point it out wherever I see it as I know it's not just a typo. It's actually very common in England lol.

Victor still hasn't questioned me about anything once. Not even once. If I had a scum read on someone & they were replaced, the first thing I would do is be all over their replacement. I'd want to see if it was a case of the previous incumbent of the slot just happening to fulfill my own personal idea of what scum look like. He voted for my slot AFTER I parachuted into the game remember. It's like he already knows I'm town. What are you doing Victor?

Has anyone who is voting you questioned you - even once - personally? Why focus on Victor?

There are outstanding observations about your slot, made by a least two players off the top of my head, that are critical of your slot's play. What is it about Victor that he must direct your attention to these problems in order for you to address them?

I just explained that in my previous post. He voted for me without seeing if those 'outstanding' observations' were as a result of the other guys shitty town play or not & jumped on the biggest wagon that happened to have a new guy in the slot! & to add to that now his answer is that he thought asking me anything would be pointless.

Phone postin so I'm responding to your last paragraph.

Victor has stated why he suspects you. You have this weird argument that his read is somehow flawed because he has not directly addressed you.

But I don't think any of your voters have directly addressed you.

You also seem to imply that if only Victor talked to you, you could smooth over problems with your slot. But you're not willing to take such proactive steps yourself, with respect to any I your voters?

It looks like you're artificially narrowing your problems to Victor, and then faulting him instead of making yourself look better - a "he's scummier than me" tactic.

[Green Crayons]

I also want to note that I've backed away from my Alchemist suspicions in light of his more recent posting.

[Ollie]

Let's start with a lurker...

And what was his reasoning? Oh, I suck at mafia so I'm just going to sheep someone. And now that another vanity wagon started and I posted something about his wagon hopping, he's openly supporting the Siv wagon, but not actually wanting to be on it.

So my top scum read now gets my vote.

Vote: Flubbernugget

Targeting a player who said they suck at mafia. Spotted a player he perceives to be weak & swooping in for the kill?

Unvote: Flubbernugget

Unvotes not long after, maybe because it didn't get enough traction?

Next up the player that started my wagon...

This leaves plenty of doubt as to why Ank is scumreading Siv, because it's bascially a nebulous "not good" accusation. Ank misrepresenting her own suspicions as being stronger and clearer than what they actually are is scummy.

Is this one of those outstanding reasons to vote for my slot? The strength of your read on someone can change on the basis of one post. People aren't allowed to alter their opinions slightly?

Adrien could be voting for GC to avoid voting for me or Victor, while knowing he won't be truly suspected by GC for doing that. Just a theory. All I know for sure is that GC has started a wagon on a townie.

I found nothing new on

farside

, keeping her knowledge of the status of Victor's wagon to herself was scummy though which prompted me to have a look, but full disclosure, her posts were too damn long to be bothered with. She is definitely one to watch though, it was anti town/bad town play.

If I'm still alive after this lynch & night phase I'll draw some conclusions from the wagon s on both Victor & myself & cross reference them with other info I get from looking at everyone. I don't wanna cast shade on too many people at this delicate stage though & give them reasons to vote for me as revenge or an easy out from not voting for me/making a decision on one of us. I've already noticed people setting themselves up to potentially duck out of the decision.

[TheAdrienC]

My vote there was prior to my V/LA.

Unvote

I'm close to a decision on Ollie/Victor.

[Ollie]

Phone postin so I'm responding to your last paragraph.

Victor has stated why he suspects you. You have this weird argument that his read is somehow flawed because he has not directly addressed you.

But I don't think any of your voters have directly addressed you.

You also seem to imply that if only Victor talked to you, you could smooth over problems with your slot. But you're not willing to take such proactive steps yourself, with respect to any I your voters?

It looks like you're artificially narrowing your problems to Victor, and then faulting him instead of making yourself look better - a "he's scummier than me" tactic.

He is the last one on my wagon though, under pressure himself & jumps on mine, the biggest wagon at the time, sensing weakness & taking the opportunity. I don't see why you think he isn't any different to the other players, I'm continually mentioning this. Perhaps a visual reminder is needed of the situation...

Official Vote Count

VictorDeAngelo

(5): Mathdino, Formerfish, farside22, Ollie, Aneninen

Ollie

(4): Green Crayons, droog, wgeurts, VictorDeAngelo

Alchemist21

(1): Flubbernugget

Flubbernugget

(1): Alchemist21

Green Crayons

(1): TheAdrienC

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2014-12-23 22:00:00)

Narrowing the vote guarantees the lynch, if it's me then so be it but I like him for the lynch & wouldn't have narrowed it down if his actions in the game didn't strike me as scummy.

OK, I'm pretty much behind lynching the Venrob slot, the Ank slot or the AdrienC slot (oh wait, AdrienC is still in it). I feel best about finding scum in Ankimus right now:

VOTE: Ollie

3 suspicions, chooses the one with the biggest wagon. I was clear vote leader at the time. I don't wanna read any more posts that Victor is just like everyone else GC, you're welcome to your opinion but it's not a fact. He's standing out as scummy to me.

[Aneninen]

Ollie, 1237 – This post is amongst those which will be to be remembered later when we have more flips.

Wgeurts, 1240 – I don'T think Ollie is lurking.

VDA, 1250 – How on Gods' Green Earth can Alchemist and me nulls?! Also,

"I find it telling you didn't annouce it as L-1. Hoping for a derp hammer perhaps?"

– whutkindofbullshyt was that? Anyone who considers themselves a minimally sentient organism checks the Vote Count before voting for a major wagon. Aaaand, that

"There goes the Farside townread."

was simply lololol!

Farside, 1282

"I have two different scum groups vda."

– and I bet you don't want to elaborate it right now. You're not the only one who has "pocked scumreads". I'm too thinking about two different scenarios and VDA fits both...

MathDino, 1263

"Alternatively, both Ollie and Victor are town and scum doesn't particularly care either way but wants to stick to one to be consistent."

– I too find Victor scummy. However, if and when he flips town, we all should examine those who were on both wagons and/or who were scumreading both of them.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Why was there no hammer on you from the opportunistic scum though Victor? A list of my scum reads coming up soon...

There could hundreds of reasons:

• Mafia were afk during the hammer

• All 3 scum are already on the wagon

• There 2 scum already and the other wanted to stay off

• Mafia fear that I might be vengeful and are staying off

• Both wagons are town and the mafia don't care which wagon they are on and the want to continue

etc etc

This question really doesn't help us in the scheme and is why I don't find it in any way valuable to simply defy convention and have players at L-1 without declaring as test.

Ollie, 1237

VDA, 1250 – How on Gods' Green Earth can Alchemist and me nulls?!

I don't think you've done anything town but I don't think either of you have done enough to be considered scummier than my scumreads.

Also,

"I find it telling you didn't annouce it as L-1. Hoping for a derp hammer perhaps?"

– whutkindofbullshyt was that? Anyone who considers themselves a minimally sentient organism checks the Vote Count before voting for a major wagon.

I've seen plenty of people slam down votes without checking votecounts, and frankly unless this is your first game I would think you a liar if you tried to claim you hadn't.

Aaaand, that

"There goes the Farside townread."

was simply lololol!

I'm glad I can still make people laugh.

[Green Crayons]

3 suspicions, chooses the one with the biggest wagon. I was clear vote leader at the time. I don't wanna read any more posts that Victor is just like everyone else GC, you're welcome to your opinion but it's not a fact. He's standing out as scummy to me.

1. Voting the second biggest BW when you are the biggest BW is not alignment indicative. I can think of reasons why both scum and town would do that. The mere fact that Victor already has votes on him when he voted you, whereas other players who voted you did not, does not somehow justify your focus on criticizing Victor of play that all your voters have done (having failed to engage you, the replacer, on a one-on-one basis based on preexisting suspicions of your slot). It also does not justify you ignoring the suspicions about your slot by making it about Victor rather than yourself.


2. Also, nice hypocrisy: you did your weird "1 v. 1" and Victor vote in Post 1182

immediately after

the Post 1181 vote count that listed your and Victor's BW tied at 4 votes each. You had just previously machine gunned your suspicions of Victor (Post 1172), wgeurts (Post 1173) and farside (Post 1177, Post 1178), and then chose to vote Victor. In your words: you had "3 suspicions, <and> choose<d> the one with the biggest wagon."


3. You're once again making this all about Victor, when it's not about Victor. It's about you

making it

about Victor so you can build up Victor suspicions and avoid addressing suspicions of your slot.

Here is Victor supporting his Ollie-vote:

1) Why can't I use the stuff I already said? Anyway it's a vote based on Ank's play, I constantly saw her fall into the background and subtely pushing without anything that looked like real attempts at scumhunting. She's not my only scumread but she's the one I think we're best lynching toDay and no one seems interested in lynching anyone that isn't her or me anyway.

You completely ignore this. Instead, you're complaining that he hasn't engaged you in a one-on-one basis. Despite the fact that (and here's a bit of legit criticism of Victor's Ollie-vote) Victor's suspicions look a lot like mine (Post 1104) and wgeurts (Post 1170). So even if you are correct that someone with Victor's suspicions of your slot should engage you on a one-on-one basis, you have artificially narrowed it to Victor only while ignoring my and wguerts' similar play with similar suspicions.

[Green Crayons]

It's really difficult to pin down all the bad points behind your Victor push because you're being slippery as hell, Ollie.

1. Victor is suspicious because he voted you when you were the largest BW. Post 1172.

2. Victor is vote worthy because you two have tied BW. Post 1181 (VC), Post 1182 (your vote/justification).

This in and of itself undercuts your first basis to suspect Victor.

3. Victor is scummy because he hasn't directly addressed you with his questions arising from his suspicions. Post 1237.

4. No, it's not so much that he didn't directly address you, but it goes back to the fact that he voted you because you had a large number of votes. Post 1254.

5. No, no wait. It's both! Now it's that Victor didn't directly address you about his suspicions, and that makes HIM suspicious and not any of your other voters suspicious who also engaged in the same inactivity because of this unrelated, non-alignment indicative thing: that he voted you because you had a large number of votes. Post 1270.