Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[copper223]

I think Dave is still scummier, do you think Dave is town?

[Aneninen]

@Aneninen
Lol, I'm used to your posting style.

Good.
Let me give tell you something important.

Spoiler:

Oh no, this isn't important at all. It's the pigeon again. TROLOLOL!

Now I can see a world where town_Dave tries to read Aneninen because they previously had a game together and comes up with a blank, so idk, it's not such a strong scumtell anymore and I continue disliking everyone finding an angle to jump on the wagon (BBT being the latest addition).

I think the same.
I also understand that Dave's very cautious. As far as I can remember he was townreading me in our first game together. And I was

very

thankful for that read ^_^ (Oh, Dave answered it with one word later.)

Dodgy, 307

"My read on dave has been lessened by the way the wagon built up on dave"

– mm-hmm.
308 –

"However his

(BBT's)

read on Tean is slighty odd."

– I'm interested in BBT's answer too. I found it in 335 but I don't understand why those posts are that town. (Especially 198 was scummy according to my reads.)

Eyestott, 315 – Huh?

In general, Dodgy/Eyestott, the conversation around those posts: Dodgy gives me town-vibes. Eyestott gives me scum-vibes.

BBT, 329 – In that post I examined

only

the Davesaz-wagon. 334 – Why was Beast's post that scummy?

Killapenguin, 345 – please, can't you make the post numbers linkable? Anyway, this post seemed to be townish.

Copper, 352 – I must have missed something but... are you still scumreading Davesaz??? Also, do you think that Eyestott and Dodgy are scums together?

Wicked, 371 – I think it was explained before why Davesaz had wanted to get a read on me. It's unclear what your reads on BBT and Dodgy are. 372 – As for Davesaz, I think I've already told all everything.

Cooper, 390 – That's a good advice, you too, Dodgy and Eyestott. It's very tiring to follow your discussion.

BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Copper, Dave is not town by a long shot.

Anen, if there is scum in Dodgy/Eyestott, I feel it's eyestott.

[copper223]

@Aneninen
I think I alrady replied to most of your questions when BBT asked. How sure are you of Dave being town (0-100)? I am confident if Dave is town at least 1 scum was on that wagon, too tempting to pass.

[Wickedestjr]

Thoughts to 392.

I have issue with both dodgy AND eyestott from their long exchange.

Feels like dodgy’s grasping at straws just trying to find something wrong with eyestott’s delayed dave vote. Not wanting to put someone at L-1 due to self-hammer consideration seems like a perfectly ordinary decision and one that’s not particularly telling either way. These last few pages are making me grow less confident in dodgy-town.

The reason for not putting dave at L-1 is fine, if true, but I’m not convinced that was eyestott’s real reason. eyestott said he decided to not put dave at L-1 ONLY because he had expressed self-voting intent, but eyestott expressed issue with dave in post 195 BEFORE dave expressed self vote intent in post 199. eyestott, if his self vote consideration was the only thing holding you back, why didn’t you vote him prior to its mention?

just did a re-read of all his posts.

im neutral -leaning scum on him. i dont like his involvement in the killa/dave bandwagons. he hasnt expressed a couple of opinions that generally follow the trend of what has been said in thread up to that point. i dont see him doing any scumhunting of his own and it feels like he is trying to just blend in.

They were first to attack the weak reads-list presented by Dave; I'm curious why you don't see that as independent scum-hunting.

This seems weak. If this is your primary example of Tean’s independent scum hunting, then I really think you need to reconsider. At the time of Tean’s reads-list attack, I think four people were voting dave, so Tean wasn’t really taking a risk here. Also, I think any player on this site could have noticed the lack in dave’s reads list - it’s not like Tean pointed out something inconspicuous that we all would have missed otherwise. Tean just happened to be first.

[dodgy56]

I see why Mollie gets uppity about newbie players...

My advice, since you both seem to be scumreading each other (and eyes., that was not an endorsement to turn around and behave the same):

- each of you make a case (being concise would be helpful) about why you think the other is scum.

at this point if you're both town this is an OMGUS based discussion, if one of you is scum the town player's arguments are getting drowned in the back and forth.

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

[Aneninen]

How sure are you of Dave being town (0-100)? I am confident if Dave is town at least 1 scum was on that wagon, too tempting to pass.

About 90%.
It's not only because I've seen this Davesaz posting style before. But also,
(1) his wagon was emerging very fast
(2) there was no real counterwagon pushed meanwhile (usually the scum try to derail a scum-wagon by building up a counterwagon).

So yes, there was at least one scum on that wagon.

[copper223]

@Aneninen
Ok.

VOTE: Eyes

[vettrock]

How sure are you of Dave being town (0-100)? I am confident if Dave is town at least 1 scum was on that wagon, too tempting to pass.

About 90%.
It's not only because I've seen this Davesaz posting style before. But also,
(1) his wagon was emerging very fast
(2) there was no real counterwagon pushed meanwhile (usually the scum try to derail a scum-wagon by building up a counterwagon).

So yes, there was at least one scum on that wagon.

I would never go as high as 90%, but I can follow that. I would agree scum would at least try and build a counterwagon, but they can't really do it by themselves, or someone with only one or two votes on them could be their planned counterwagon, as we still have some time before the deadline.

I need to do some more analysis before I come back with more definitive scumreads.

[Wickedestjr]

Post 393.

Wicked, I don't think it's good scum-hunting strategy to base your reads on players depending on how

you

play. Everybody plays differently. For example, I tend to pay more attention to the thread as scum because I know who is town and it always feels harder making cases when I know somebodies alignment.

Interesting. I actually hadn’t thought about it that way. Questions;
1. When you are mafia, do you still feel like you have to pay close attention even when you have already made cases?
2. If you pay

more

attention as mafia, that means you pay

less

attention as town. Why would you not pay as much attention as you could be, when town? That doesn’t really make sense to me.

Regardless of the accuracy of this ‘tell’, I still perceive dodgy as consistently interested and his attention to detail to be townish.

What do you make of Dodgy's defence against my accusation of 122?

It’s somewhat dissatisfying. He said “Dave is a player i would consider voting right now” and then “i want to know what your case against him is.” If he had just said the second part, then I’d have no issue with this and I’d believe his explanation that he was just trying to get a read on mastin. However, the first part contributes nothing to his question, so I can’t help but wonder if dodgy actually included that part to establish that he was on the fence.

I mean, in 160, I see no reason to scum-read someone because they present a case on someone who you don't think it scum. Town present cases on town all the time and it's not even like it was a

bad

case. Unless your town-read of Killa at that time was super-strong, and if it was, I would like to know how you arrived at that read.

Well, I do actually have a ‘super-strong’ town read on Killa, and I explained why in my post 159. It’s the strength of my town read + killa being an easy target that makes me dislike that Tean chose to target him. But ‘I dislike the target’ was only half of my point in 160. You ignored the last 80% of my Tean Samargo thoughts section.

As for 250,

1:

do you disagree with his reasoning for voting Dave? Because I found myself nodding my head when they picked him up for an awful reads-list,

2:

where am I going wrong here? Also, I find Tean's reasoning for Dave!Scum to be much more genuine and likely to come from a town mindset than eyestott's.

3:

Do you disagree?

1: No, I do not disagree with his reasoning.
2: I don’t think that Tean’s vote for dave was opportunistic. Based on your questions, I’m guessing that’s what you’ve assumed. If that is the case, then that’s where you’re wrong. I don’t think Tean’s vote is opportunistic. I just thought it was strange that Tean would call eyestott opportunistic when they voted dave around the same time. Strange does not mean ‘hypocritical’ in this case. Strange means ‘weird’, as in, Tean had just decided to commit to an L-2 dave vote - I wouldn’t expect a negative reaction to eyestott’s vote that came soon after.
3: I think Tean’s vote was justified better than eyestott’s vote, but I’m not yet sure which vote is more ‘genuine’. I don’t think this is a relevant question.

1: In post 231 you said “I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly.” which feels like doubt in the dave wagon.

1:

No, what it looks like is that Tean are aware of their reads and willing to reevaluate.

2:

Why would he be comfortable pushing a wagon that another of his scum-reads has jumped on?

3:

It seems you're determined to read scum motivation behind anything Tean does and my town-read on you is slipping.

1: Seriously? “Willing to reevaluate” sounds an awful lot like “doubt” to me. Definition of reevaluate: “evaluate again or differently”, neither of which seem necessary if Tean is confident in their read. I seriously can’t believe you disagree.
2: He shouldn’t be fully comfortable. That’s what I’m arguing. Not sure what your issue is.
3: That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all game. I said it looked like Tean was starting to doubt the dave wagon. You defend Tean by basically saying you think Tean was just reevaluating or uncomfortable with the wagon because of eyestott’s vote. How in the world is that different from what I’m saying? Seriously… I think you’re doing whatever you can to convince me Tean is town - even by trying to distinguish doubt from ‘will to reevaluate’ and ‘lack of comfort’. My neutral read on you is slipping towards scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Seriously infuriated/frustrated with BBT right now for that last one.

@town - if you read nothing else from my last post, please at least read my response to the last quote. Somebody please tell me I'm not crazy.

[Wickedestjr]

It's unclear what your reads on BBT and Dodgy are.

Dodgy- neutral, slight town lean - I

was

confident in Dodgytown, but the last few pages have made me start to reconsider

BBT- neutral, slight scum lean - I had several points against Tean which I felt very good about - it bothers me that BBT both completely disagrees with all my points AND has issue with me for disagreeing with him. Has he never had a townie disagree with him before? Also, I think BBT's last quote in 409 is just absurd.

BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)

Why did you feel the need to tell BBT you didn't think he was scum when you asked him this question, thus reducing the pressure? Seems a little suspicious.

I need to do some more analysis before I come back with more definitive scumreads.

Are you close?

[Wickedestjr]

Finally caught up - finished reading/responding. I need to think about the game now.

[beastcharizard]

@BBT:

If I am scummy why do you not vote me?

@Wicked:

I never said I was being the epitome of town, I just don't see how I am being scummy. I am just being useless. I will get to the point where I am useful though.

[davesaz]

Still seriously busy.

At least some of you have realized that if I were scum it's likely my buddies would at least be trying to build a counter wagon. Lack of a strong push in that direction points to me as town, though I'll agree with others who already said it's far from strong evidence. (Yes I could go back and quote. Maybe I will next time the available time is better)

[mastin2]

I SWEAR I AM PLAYING THIS GAME.
TOMORROW.

(I had 2 hours of unplanned extra work today. Two hours of extra work = two hours that're

not

free for mafia stuff that would normally BE free and were in fact scheduled as such. Their absence puts me at a setback; either I get caught up and go to bed at 4 AM AGAIN, or I wait until tomorrow when I'll actually have free time.)

[copper223]

@Wicked
When someone as active as you gets too many town reads it usually means one of two things:
- His pushes are on town and scum want him to be seen as solid town or will at least not cast doubt on him.
- He is scum himself.

In this instance I am starting to think your push on Dave is incorrect and he just is naturally scummy, but I'm still pretty sure you are town.

BBT has done a good job of convincing me the Eyes L-2 was scummier than Tean's vote, I think you should vote Eyes.

[Aneninen]

@Aneninen
Ok.

vote: Eyes

Although Tean is my strongest scumread, that's also a viable idea. (See my 219 about him and also the Dodgy/EyeStott conversation.) If Eyestott flips scum, Tean is most probably town, or at least, if both of them were scum, it would have been very dumb from them to jump on the Davesaz wagon with those posts. Also, if Eyestott is scum, that may clear Dodgy too, maybe.
Everyone, discuss these!

BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)

Why did you feel the need to tell BBT you didn't think he was scum when you asked him this question, thus reducing the pressure? Seems a little suspicious.

I've played with BBT before. His start here was different from the one I had seen in our game but his later "pushes" are the town-BBT I had met before. So, I simply don't know what to think. Does it make sense now?

I never said I was being the epitome of town, I just don't see how I am being scummy. I am just being useless. I will get to the point where I am useful though.

Couldn't you be useful now?

@Wicked
When someone as active as you gets too many town reads it usually means one of two things:
- His pushes are on town and scum want him to be seen as solid town or will at least not cast doubt on him.
- He is scum himself.
In this instance I am starting to think your push on Dave is incorrect and he just is naturally scummy, but I'm still pretty sure you are town.

Interesting thoughts indeed, as for the first part. We should remember them later.

[davesaz]

VOTE: eyestott

TBH I'm still pressed for time and have not had a chance to independently build a case, but I agree with what I'm seeing against him to be willing to vote it.
So a little more than just sheeping, but not much more.

[Heartless]

antihero here

hold on to your dooky

[Heartless]

re: dodge's Post 87 about eyestott; the killa vote rubbed me the wrong way b/c he just summarized killa's play w/ the vote in Post 67 w/o actually connecting that to the vote. it's floaty logic that doesn't really go anywhere and just rode the killa hate of the time.

[Heartless]

brb

[Heartless]

oh awesome

mastin's scum here....

[Heartless]

dave is a

LOSER

wagon

[Heartless]

yeah, how mastin is ignoring the hammy eyestott/dodgy scum theatre to chase after me (who's time is limited AND TTH CAME IN THE THREAD AND EXPLICITLY SAID SO) is just so fucking beyond me