Mini 1633 ~ Non-normal Mafias Mafia OVER!!!

[FourTrouble]

Pasch, why is ika scum?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this.

[House]

Pasch is saying Zombeh was a noon and therefore not scum. So when it comes to Zombeh, Pasch takes into account the specific player ("Zombeh is a noob so self-voting isn't scummy for him") but when it comes to ika, he doesn't ("ika's self-vote is scummy regardless of ika's meta"). Pasch also maintains that he wasn't defending Zombeh, just attacking the players for voting him. That's scummy because Pasch is refusing to tie himself to a position - instead

he's focused on attacking or commenting on others reason ing.

Town are looking for the scum so they take positions on alignments; scum are looking for ways to look engaged without having to look for scum. Pasch is doing the latter (lots of commentary on what others say but very little attempt to tie that commentary to alignment).

How is that alignment indicative? I tend to do it as well, as town. Find bad reasons, and you find scum.

[Paschendale]

I suppose I should have said "intentional self voting is never okay"

How does one unintentionally self-vote?

Doing so by not understanding what you're doing or its implications.

Pasch is saying Zombeh was a noon and therefore not scum. So when it comes to Zombeh, Pasch takes into account the specific player ("Zombeh is a noob so self-voting isn't scummy for him") but when it comes to ika, he doesn't ("ika's self-vote is scummy regardless of ika's meta"). Pasch also maintains that he wasn't defending Zombeh, just attacking the players for voting him. That's scummy because Pasch is refusing to tie himself to a position - instead he's focused on attacking or commenting on others reason ing. Town are looking for the scum so they take positions on alignments; scum are looking for ways to look engaged without having to look for scum. Pasch is doing the latter (lots of commentary on what others say but very little attempt to tie that commentary to alignment).

No, I did not say he wasn't scum. I said that the argument for him being scum was crap. That's it. I didn't attack anyone for voting Zombehs. I attacked people for making bad cases. That is my position. Tie me to it all you like. Feel free to criticize what I'm actually doing, but you get nothing for saying I'm doing something else.

You can be damn sure I'm looking for scum. I've found two good candidates so far. I found two instances of players pushing lynches for shallow or faked reasons and getting in the way of genuine scumhunting. Tell me, are you just chainsawing me in order to defend Ika? Cuz that's what it looks like you're doing. You're intentionally misrepping my actions in order to diffuse my case on Ika.

[House]

I suppose I should have said "intentional self voting is never okay"

How does one unintentionally self-vote?

Doing so by not understanding what you're doing or its implications.

Self-voting outside of self-hammering is a null tell. I've seen it happen from frustrated town and scum both. As scum, it's AtE. As town, it's surrender/fukitol.

Instantly writing off self-votes as scummy is scummy.

Self-hammering is an exception because it has an immediate benefit for scum in shutting down communication.

[House]

I suppose I should have said "intentional self voting is never okay"

You can be damn sure I'm looking for scum. I've found two good candidates so far. I found two instances of players pushing lynches for shallow or faked reasons and getting in the way of genuine scumhunting. Tell me, are you just chainsawing me in order to defend Ika? Cuz that's what it looks like you're doing. You're intentionally misrepping my actions in order to diffuse my case on Ika.

And that's precisely what I'd do as scum if I were the kind of player to defend my buddies (I'm more of a busser).

Attacking the arguments but not the player leaves your hands clean of a dirty townread when they flip scum.

[Titus]

@House, and if ika's tiwn causing drama for drama's sake?

[House]

@House, and if ika's tiwn causing drama for drama's sake?

Speed scroll his posts.

Give him the Amish treatment. They shun troublemakers in their society, refusing to talk to or even look at them.

[House]

@House, and if ika's tiwn causing drama for drama's sake?

Speed scroll his posts.

Give him the Amish treatment. They shun troublemakers in their society, refusing to talk to or even look at them.

Basically, don't sacrifice town's win con for a spite lynch.

[Titus]

@House, and if ika's tiwn causing drama for drama's sake?

Speed scroll his posts.

Give him the Amish treatment. They shun troublemakers in their society, refusing to talk to or even look at them.

Basically, don't sacrifice town's win con for a spite lynch.

That's why I am not voting ika.

Why did you say town's wincon though?

[House]

@House, and if ika's tiwn causing drama for drama's sake?

Speed scroll his posts.

Give him the Amish treatment. They shun troublemakers in their society, refusing to talk to or even look at them.

Basically, don't sacrifice town's win con for a spite lynch.

That's why I am not voting ika.

Why did you say town's wincon though?

Because I'm totally scum! zOMG, the great Titus has hunted me!

Your sister can read me better than you can. It's okay, no need to be bitter.

[House]

ITT: Titus frustrated at not being able to scumread me because I'm obvtown.

[Titus]

You are not obvtown. No one is yet.

[FourTrouble]

House, there's a difference between "scumhunting" and "attacking bad reasoning." Town do the former, which sometimes entails the latter. Scum only do the latter, which makes them look engaged when they're not actually scumhunting. Pasch attacked bad reasoning - the question is whether he was scumhunting or just trying to look engaged. I think he wasn't scumhunting because Pasch insists he wasn't defending Zombeh or attacking the players voting for Zombeh. What was Pasch trying to accomplish then? Pasch says he was just attacking bad cases, i.e. he wasn't scumhunting, he was just attacking bad reasoning. He didn't develop any reads. He didn't stop anyone from voting Zombeh (at least that wasn't his intention, according to his claim that he wasn't defending Zombeh).

[House]

House, there's a difference between "scumhunting" and "attacking bad reasoning." Town do the former, which sometimes entails the latter. Scum only do the latter, which makes them look engaged when they're not actually scumhunting. Pasch attacked bad reasoning - the question is whether he was scumhunting or just trying to look engaged. I think he wasn't scumhunting because Pasch insists he wasn't defending Zombeh or attacking the players voting for Zombeh. What was Pasch trying to accomplish then? Pasch says he was just attacking bad cases, i.e. he wasn't scumhunting, he was just attacking bad reasoning. He didn't develop any reads. He didn't stop anyone from voting Zombeh (at least that wasn't his intention, according to his claim that he wasn't defending Zombeh).

That there's a lot of words to basically echo 904.

[Om of the Nom]

And, of course, I never defended Zombehs. I never once asserted that he was town. I (correctly) said that the attempts to lynch that slot were duplicitous. Again, please understand the difference and don't misrep what I've said.

then how the heck am i scum for pushing the zombeh lynch for fucks sake you were calling it an easy lynch but you cant even attribute an alignment to the fricking slot and the alignment is the part that matters if ur accusing me of pushing it

[FourTrouble]

I'm not defending him. I'm debating the merits of the push. It seems to me that scum would leap on a poorly justified push like this.

Here's another example of Pasch attacking a case (on mathdino) while insisting that he's not "defending" the guy. The scum intent is leaving options open; he's not held down to townreading someone so he can always turn around and push a lynch on the guy. It also allows scum to look engaged and active when they're not doing anything; he's just attacking cases instead of trying to figure out alignments. The easiest thing to do as scum is take a case and attack it; every case can be attacked (either by attacking its assumptions or logic), which is why it's so easy for scum to fall into the habit of doing that instead of actually trying to figure out who the scum are, and taking responsibility for the positions inherent in your moves.

[FourTrouble]

House, there's a difference between "scumhunting" and "attacking bad reasoning." Town do the former, which sometimes entails the latter. Scum only do the latter, which makes them look engaged when they're not actually scumhunting. Pasch attacked bad reasoning - the question is whether he was scumhunting or just trying to look engaged. I think he wasn't scumhunting because Pasch insists he wasn't defending Zombeh or attacking the players voting for Zombeh. What was Pasch trying to accomplish then? Pasch says he was just attacking bad cases, i.e. he wasn't scumhunting, he was just attacking bad reasoning. He didn't develop any reads. He didn't stop anyone from voting Zombeh (at least that wasn't his intention, according to his claim that he wasn't defending Zombeh).

That there's a lot of words to basically echo 904.

I hadn't seen 904 yet, but yes, it echoes the idea.

[FourTrouble]

912 was a response to your question in 901; it seems you answered your own question before I did.

[Flubbernugget]

@House, and if ika's tiwn causing drama for drama's sake?

Speed scroll his posts.

Give him the Amish treatment. They shun troublemakers in their society, refusing to talk to or even look at them.

Basically, don't sacrifice town's win con for a spite lynch.

That's why I am not voting ika.

Why did you say town's wincon though?

Because I'm totally scum! zOMG, the great Titus has hunted me!

Your sister can read me better than you can. It's okay, no need to be bitter.

VOTE: pasch

Pure policy vote. Gonna lose this game having fun dammit

[FourTrouble]

So you think Pasch is town?

[Ghostlin]

Ghost, why is your vote on math?

Om, can you give me 1 or 2 reasons why Titus is scum?

MTD, why is eye scum?

Because I couldn't be assed to change it. I'm not thrilled with either wagon, but I will:

Unvote.

Vote: midget

His reasoning seems pretty shallow (if not weird, read his Ika defense) when it exists, his actual defense of Ika has bizarre resonance with the idea that a Vig would kill Ika (Vigs generally do not target folks who will have their ass in the wind soon) and it seems like a really fucking great way to get town cred.

Ok, i've only played two games with vigs in so I didn't know that. I assime yoy think Titus is my buddy then?
Otherwise there wouldnt be any point me defending him.
Ibthink the om/eye push on him means that Titus is town. It didn't seem like a town push.
Also how does it give me town cred if I'm getting scum read for it?

,
Nope. Titus's alignment has really nothing to do with yours; for example, if Titus gets mislynch later, you can frustratedly bitch about "YOU GOT IT UTTERLY WRONG GUYS." Its the ultimate I told you so. Another way it could be used is you aren't seen on a popular wagon, which can be defense in itself, and ruin wagon analysis.

Also, since everyone still thinks of this as a shitty Ghostlin theory, you can still be safe.

[Ghostlin]

@House, and if ika's tiwn causing drama for drama's sake?

Speed scroll his posts.

Give him the Amish treatment. They shun troublemakers in their society, refusing to talk to or even look at them.

Basically, don't sacrifice town's win con for a spite lynch.

That's why I am not voting ika.

Why did you say town's wincon though?

Because I'm totally scum! zOMG, the great Titus has hunted me!

Your sister can read me better than you can. It's okay, no need to be bitter.

VOTE: pasch

Pure policy vote. Gonna lose this game having fun dammit

You voted for me, because....reasons.

You're voting for Pasch for a policy vote.

How can anyone in their right fucking mind go "this is Town?"

[FourTrouble]

Eye, why is Titus scum and who else are you willing to lynch?

[FourTrouble]

Ghost, I never said it's town. Let's talk about the game. I want to figure this out. Why don't you want to lynch Pasch? What do you think of my "case" (if you can call it that)?

[eyestott]

Hey, om. If I'm agreeing you, I MUST be white nighting you!
Because according to Titus, I can't agree with someone as its white nightingale if they're town and buddying if they're scum!

It's this right here that's the issue. The desperation of having no one suspect you is problematic.

Your speech is awkward and over the top. There's no hunting. No questions. No thought. Solely defending with a bit of OMGUS attack.

You've given Literally next to no reasons.

Make an ika case or self vote. With deadline looming those are the only options. I will not be voting Om again.

We literally have like 100 hours. Deadline is NOT looming, and those are not the only options.