Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[copper223]

Also Vettrock should hurry up and post, I've seen him active elsewhere.

[davesaz]

Umm, I never said that the

rage

was faked. That was a real fingers shaking so bad you almost can't type kind of rage.

Yes, I definitely hinted at there being a "prove I'm town" strategy to my posting. Don't think I've tried to hide that.

[copper223]

Fair enough, if you are town I don't think it's a good strategy, at least on MS, from what I've seen most agree with me that "showing you are town" is scum indicative.

[davesaz]

So I've learned this game (and a couple of other recent ones).
Act scummy (by the standards of the sites I played on before) so you get town read just seems so counter intuitive.

[Heartless]

Heartless (TTH side), what's your read on:

- Dave
- Aneninen
- Eyes vs Dodgy

Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.

There's a couple reasons I think dave is probably town here. I've had experience with him both as a town special and a vanilla. His claimed vanilla status here makes sense in context with his play in m9++. The other game I saw him in where he was a special was C9++. In C9++, both Anti and I scum read him because he tended to more stick to the periphery of the discussion, which I now ascribe to being a special and wanting to play conservatively. I strongly suspect his scum play style is similar to what we saw in C9++ because the survivalist mindset is a shared trait between scum and town specials.
Another cue is what Antihero already brought up about dave being bussed by his teammates. When you examine the wagon dynamics and how the early dave wagon went down, in order to think dave is scum you have to conclude he was being mercilessly bussed or he's a serial killer. A serial killer is a 50/50 chance and can't be intelligently speculated on right now and the "merciless bussing" theory make the most sense if copper and/or mastin2 were scum with him and exited the wagon at the first viable opportunity. Intuition says this isn't the case since mastin herself wrote a long Mafia Discussion article about how people shouldn't bus and she specifically said at one time that bussing on Day 1 was especially unwise.

Independent of anything else, dodgy's reaction to eyestott's dave vote in Post 212 is more likely to come from town who has second thoughts than scum either bussing or voting a mislynch wagon. dodgy's read on eyestott tracks well across the ISO as well. The interaction with the dave read is flexible and is the opposite of the stiffness and stilted-ness I expect to see from scum in their reads.

Eyestott's activity itself isn't anything to write home about, but the wagon dynamics make me think he's more likely town than not. The case on him essentially boils down to him not presenting his killa opinion in such-and-such a way, which is actually pretty speculative. And, as eyestott himself pointed out, he seems to be the latest target of the serial wagoning. To explain the rise of his wagon you either have to invoke the possibility of an SK again or you have to argue that scum just randomly decided to bus out of the blue.

Furthermore, the general dynamics of the game are more consistent with it being "town vs town." So far, I've found that arguments that in actuality

aren't

"Town v Town" are quick to be labeled as such by general consensus. If one of their teammates are involved in an argument, buddies usually write off the whole dispute as "TvT" or take their buddy's side. Real "TvT" arguments are usually taken advantage of, which is what I think we're seeing here. The vote count reflects that the argument is lopsided as eyestott has accumulated 5 votes to dodgy's one. If any scum are involved, you have to dip into theories like "eyestott's getting bussed" or "dodgy's scum and just winning the argument" neither of which I agree with.

One thing Antihero

did

point out that probably has a lot of merit is that there have been a couple vote parkers on Tean since Vote Count 1.2, back on page 10 and the wagon hasn't shown much signs of life or hope but there they remain. I'll be reviewing killapenguin and Aneninen next time I look at this.

-TTH (credit to Antihero for a few ideas)

[Heartless]

VOTE: Mastin

And now I have to think about why you're latching onto my mastin case.

-TTH

[mastin2]

That leaves dave (scum), Heartless, eyestott, and dodgy. And I think the scumteam's in there.

so your scumlist is the EXACT SAME as mine minus dave / switching us?

No, YOUR list is the same as

mine

. There's an *order* to this sort of thing.


...Point taken, though.

(Heartless is town, one of my weaker townreads is likely scum, stay tuned for an update.)

[mastin2]

>it's only supported by "if i said it, it wouldn't make sense". never stopped her from trying before

I wasn't asked. I said I'm having trouble coming up with the words for it. Nobody asked me to try in spite of that after I made that declaration, though.

>mastin knows me and KNOWS that my scumgame is made up of prod dodges but seems to be applying that in the most superficial manner possible here

There was nothing superficial about that. I had a read. I tried keeping it close to my chest. You saw through it. I revealed said read because there was no point in hiding it if you were already aware. Said read wasn't strong because both of you were markably absent and this isn't the first time you've had a slow start as town. (Wire comes to mind.) You've townned it up since then. It's really that simple.

usually w/ mastin town, i see a sweet spot in the scum reads where i think "yeah, that sounds right" and that is NOTABLY absent in this game.

Your reads being the same as my reads isn't a big fucking huge tipoff?

[Heartless]

What sort of pigeon poop was that?!
I think both Penguin and me provided our reasons for being on that wagon.

Say what you want about bird excrement, but Antihero has a pretty irritating habit of being right. My gut tells me this is one of those times.

Who else besides Tean are you scumreading? (I don't care if you said them before, restate them.)

-TTH

[mastin2]

Even a rudimentary explanation deeper than " throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book." is never offered, and there's little more than bluster behind the read.

I'm lazy. Dealwithit. Just because I haven't offered the explanations doesn't mean it isn't there.

What's really telling to me is how mastin behaves when the wagon starts to falter, though.

What, you mean the fact that I've been deliberately lurking about when thinking about it?

With the rise of the eyestott counterwagon, she happily trades a dave vote for the counterwagon vote in Post 448.

And I'll happily, in a fucking HEARTBEAT, switch right damn back to dave.

By the way, we're never treated as to why she thinks eyestott is scum either.

LIKE FUCKING HELL I HAVEN'T. There was something I caught about eyestoot at one point that I can't remember at the moment, which brought him into my eye. He was already underm y attention for other factors, but that singular thing tipped the scale officially. AND THEN, on top of all of that, there was his exchange with I believe it was dodgy. In that exchange, dodgy absolutely creamed eyestott, and I noted as much and townread other people who beat me to having noted it as such in-thread.

Bailing on the dave wagon like that for a counterwagon on eyestott makes very little sense given the confidence in the davesaz read

and

in the context of mastin's other reads.

Yeah.

It makes very little sense.

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN.

MASTIN

.

I switched to eyestott because, guess what? eyestott is just as much of a scumread as Dave is, if not stronger.

With the exception of eyestott, she was townreading the dave wagon, but the eyestott wagon contains strong-"scumread" dave and is championed by mild scumread dodgy (Post 442).

Quite aware that my company on eyestott isn't the best and the company on dave was better. Don't give a damn.

And it's not like mastin hasn't been on at all and just hasn't had time to write a case.

Except it really fucking has been. YOU. FUFCKINHFG. DON'T. KNOW. MY. LIFE. How I think. My priorities, fucking up as they are., YUo knoiw. NOTHING. About how I think things through and I akm fuvkuing telling you that I haven';t had the opportunity.

/gotta go, so read of catchup later.

[Heartless]

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN. MASTIN.

You are correct. I do not know your life. I do not know how you think. I would never presume to know that or to demand things that exceed your time constraints.

However, if you can engage BBT and tell him things like "FUCK YOUR "no meta" POLICY, GO READ LITERALLY ANY FUCKING GODDAMNED MASTOWN GAME YOU PIECE OF SHIT." then I would think you can drop a quick sentence or two saying "this is the newbscumtell dave's dropping." Regardless of how busy you are, I say that if you have time to tell Anti to start towning things up, you can give us at least a tiny peek into the black box either the davesaz or eyestott reads are coming out of.

-TTH

[copper223]

BBT

[copper223]

@BBT
What's your impression?

(that went out early)

[copper223]

@TTH
Let's leave associations out of it for a moment, what do you think of Aneninen's posts in isolation?

[Heartless]

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN. MASTIN.

mastin...

...she's not going to get this

[Aneninen]

Say what you want about bird excrement, but Antihero has a pretty irritating habit of being right. My gut tells me this is one of those times.
Who else besides Tean are you scumreading? (I don't care if you said them before, restate them.)
-TTH

Antihero's wrong and that's not the first case from him being wrong about me.
It's true that I could move my vote to the Eyestott-wagon but I have a reason for not doing so and I don't want to explain it

right now

.

As for my reads, don't expect too much, because it's full of null-s (unsorted-s), "if"-s and "but"-s.

KillaPenguin – lean town. His first posts were very "survival-styled", but I liked his later posts.
BBT – if Mastin's town, he's town too. If Mastin's scum, no idea. My own reads are very far from being firm.
Eyestott – possible scum, but not together with TeanSamargo. (It would have been very dumb if two scums had jumped on the Davesaz-wagon almost at the same time.)
Heartless – null and auto-FoS. And you must know, why. (For others: we had a game together not so long ago. Davesaz was there too.)
Davesaz – most probably town and I've already explained it many times.
Copper – lean town, but because of his recent vote for Mastin, alongside still scumreading Davesaz he's more like null.
Vettrock – lean town, but I'd like to see more posts.
Aneninen – probably pigeon
Dodgy – if Eyestott's scum, he must be town. If Eyestott's town, I'll reconsider my current townread on him.
Wickedstjr – lean town, plenty of content, but he was (and is) on the Davesaz-wagon, which I think is a scum-driven wagon
Beastcharizared – null and having no idea at all
TeanSamargo – probably scum, not only the Davesaz-wagon, but also his early posts and I don't like that he's lurking. Not together with Eyestott
Mastin – null, unable to read her.

That's all I have now.

[killapenwin]

Ok I have caught up to, @wicked no you are not insane, I do not know why BBT is trying so hard to defend Tean and buddying up to him.

@Aneninen sorry I am not 100% sure how to link multiple posts I think it has to do with the "Q+ button but I think that only allows you to do posts from a single page, whereas my comments covered Tean's posts over the whole thread. If you have Tean's ISO in 1 tab and my post in another it is not to difficult to cross-reference.

I am kind of feeling this Eyestott wagon and mostly because I don't like his indecisive style of play, it seems too noncommittal. It is almost as if he is justifying an excuse at the point of voting so that he can defend himself when things don't look too good for him if he makes a mistake for example. If you are making a point against someone you should be trying to convince others they are scum typically in a format like this:

Person .... is scum because ......(read/reason).. and ideally ->see this post ..(evidence/post)...

or at least in some format similar to that. When I read Eyestott's posts he just seems to be indifferent. I find a person who does that to be difficult to read, a player is either scum or not you may have conflicting points but at some point you are going to have to decide.

I played my last game against scumEyestott and he did the same that game, which is partly why I think the wagon on him is a better choice than the others proposed so far. I'll hold off voting for him right now as I would like to hear more from a few players mastin/vettrock/heartless first.

Meeting turned out to be a quick one, so I get to post more.

This post looks so town up till the last sentence. If you're confident in the read, why wait for other players? The wagon was only L-3 or so at this point, if I counted right.

Precisely this reason, there wasn't a recent vote count and I saw Eyestott had a few votes his way, Mastin put in a few posts whilst I was catching up in the thread and whilst I was writing that post, but I still wanted to hear more from other players as I wanted to go into day2 with a better read on some of my current null players.

The discussion is going well so I am happy I didn't cause a premature lynch. I am fairly confident Eyestott is scum and will vote for him as it has been pointed out that my vote on Tean isn't going to go anywhere. I tribute this to him dropping off the radar by not posting much you will see in my read of his posts that I do not think he has contributed much for town.

vote: eyestott (L-1)

If you have a claim to make eyestott now is the time to do it.

[copper223]

That is

not L-1

and I have no interest to cut the discussion short now

[Heartless]

Let's leave associations out of it for a moment, what do you think of Aneninen's posts in isolation?

well the most recent reads list is fucking horrendous so there's that

[killapenwin]

oh right I forgot your vote copper, apologies.

eyestott is at L -2

[BlueBloodedToffee]

401 - this post gives me really scummy vibes. I can't quite put my finger on it but this reads-list feels off.

Also, I know Wicked picked up on it in 411 (Wicked is rapidly becoming my top town-read) but I really don't know why you said;

BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)

This feels scummy. Like, you're floating the idea that I am scum (but you don't think so) to see if it gains traction. I'm looking forward to seeing your explanation of this.

403 - Copper, I'm concerned here that you didn't think anything of Anen's blatant parroting of my questions.

404 - Wicked, my town-read on tean is not only due to their scum-hunting. It is a general feeling from nearly all of their posts. However, their inactivity is a little concerning.

407 - Don't like this vote.

408 - Vettrock, you really need to be doing something now. Top 3 town/scum reads?

409 - 1. Yeah because I still know they're town.
2. I enjoy playing as scum more than town.

I don't understand how you have a super-strong town-read on Killa but I'm not at all interested in pursuing this avenue right now.

It doesn't matter if Tean and Dave voted 'at the same time', it's the reasoning behind those votes.

Your read on me is slipping towards scum because I disagree with you? Pur-lease.

Has he never had a townie disagree with him before?

It's funny that you post this right after your reasons for scum-reading me.

The rest of this post is exactly what I was thinking as I was catching up though.

413 - @BC, scummier people around. Plus, it's insanely difficult to get a lurker lynched on this site. I don't have the time nor the energy to try.

417 - Yeah Anen, that reasoning in 209 is

nowhere near good enough

if decide you just want to hop on this wagon.

I've played with BBT before. His start here was different from the one I had seen in our game but his later "pushes" are the town-BBT I had met before. So, I simply don't know what to think. Does it make sense now?

No, it doesn't. How does that address the fact you tried to float the idea I was scum without committing to it?

423 - Heartless, hoping you guys elaborate on this.

[Aneninen]

BBT.
I'm trying to explain it again then.
You must remember that I met you long ago in another game, modded by Kagami. Both of us were town. Your very early posts had been very different from the posts you made here. That was pretty much FoS. Your later posts here – attacking someone vehemently – were, on the other hand, quite similar to those posts in our past game in which you had been attacking me vehemently because of very small things.
That'swhy I'm not sure what to think about you. Mastin started protecting you, and because of not having useful reads on you I decided to believe in her read about you – for now. (If Mastin flips scum later, I'll need to reconsider my reads on you.) I hope that I'll be able to establish a firm read on you later.

Is it clear now?

[copper223]

@Heartless
Aneninen is town, just a cursory read-through 573 and the readlists he gives there, full of in my opinion, or according to me, or maybe this maybe that, he doesn't even give the relevant information (town/scum) but hides it in the middle of the reads, his tone is also completely different, much more serious in this game while it's forced friendly/trolly and apologetic there, when people call him mafia there he says stuff along the lines of: good boy, I see you are scumhunting while here he calls you flat out wrong.

[Heartless]

ok, so you agree w/ my "fucking horrendous" assessment of the reads list, but.....

...

then he's town for it?

you lost me

[Heartless]

read that wrong the first time, i see what you're talking about now

except your standards for meta are just... exaggeratedly high... :\