Open 31 - Yoguraimee C9 (Game Over!) before 470

[Vendagoat]

Yogurt! I hate Yogurt, even with strawberries!

oh yah

Vote:mneme

because, why the hell not.

and hello all, few names I recognize.

[Vendagoat]

Claims and asking for claims on the first day, barely after the random vote stage? This is interesting watching a meltdown.

[Vendagoat]

I have to agree XYZ is pushing way to hard for his own good on these accusations. Trying to hide something xyz?

I'm doing this till I get a better understanding of your actions.

UNVOTE,VOTE:XYZ

[Vendagoat]

Xyz is at -1, I suggest someone unvote so we can get some info.

UNVOTE

This is only temporary. Giving him a chance to speak, this vote will be replaced in less than 24 hours.

[Vendagoat]

Finally XYZ is not making wild posts. I'm leaving my vote off for now, I want to see how this plays out. I don't think we have a full explanation yet but XYZ and HH are getting there.

[Vendagoat]

Well despite his recent lucidness, I am holding myself to my own word.

VOTE:XYZ

He's still more wild than rational. Until I see a bit more, this vote will stay.

[Vendagoat]

Oh before someone flips out. when I made post 50 I thought there would be more discussion for today. Obviously I was wrong, because nothing new came and I am a bit late on holding myself to the 24 hours, I am fulfilling what I said I would do now.

[Vendagoat]

Not today as in game day, the day as in when post 50 was made I was still under my own limit of 24 hours till I revoted. So I kind of pooched myself into a corner with that one.

I was hoping on july 10th that there would have been more discussion, but it died out quickly and suddenly it was past my 24 hour limit I put on myself. which is what I tried to explain in post 54.

So I damned if I do, damned if I don't on myself by making post number 50.

Hope I explained that well enough, any more questions or need clarification?

[Vendagoat]

Unvote, Vote: Khelvaster

Ok explain

[Vendagoat]

For god's sake people start talking! I've explained my vote and drawn my conclusion.

Let's hear what the rest of you think. I'll go first with my list.

Xyz: I think he is scum that tries to play random and confuse others, he is not based in reality and therefore also doesn't make a good townie either.

HH: for the quick vote to put XYZ at -l very quickly with a small explanation, but at least there was an explanation.

Mnem: So far I have a town read on him.

J-man: voting for the hell of it and then a quick retraction. Very very slight scummy read from him.

Khev: Bit of crap logic, bit of dicking around. leaning towards scummy as well here.

Yogurt: talks straight, answers well, so far a town read from him.

[Vendagoat]

Have people just given up?

[Vendagoat]

fine for gods sake this game is going nowhere so im going to do something that is slighty unusual,

I am one of the two Cops

, last night i was unable to investagate mabye because there are tow of us? there now the scum better pipe up or i will actually agree with killing Lurkers.

Uh it was a day start, so you never got a chance to investigate.
Does anyone else find this odd?
Fos:J

[Vendagoat]

well ok, thats enough for me.

Unvote; Vote:j-man

Common sense tells me that a cop would never just out his position for no reason.
This is crazier than Xyz

[Vendagoat]

ok there are 2 reasons that i claimed cop
1. because this game was not moving anywhere it needed a jump start that was enough provoking for me.
2. since there are 2 cops we could effectively sweep the whole populace for mafia in several short nights Lynch's aside, this is assuming that both cops are sane ;P but if we corrodinate our moves we can find out whether or not we are aswell, i hope you guys see my point.

1. So jumping out in front of the train and yelling stop is the best idea?
2. Yes and we could use BOTH cops, not just have one throw his life away needlessly! Which is why no self respecting cop would ever just out himself for no reason.
I can see and understand your point, but try and see it from ours. The game is lagging, a few players are attempting to get things rolling and BAM here you come out of left field. For no reason you stand up and scream "hey guys look at me!" well, we are. You got yourself into this situation, now convince us as why to believe you. especially after the mighty big hole you've just dug.

[Vendagoat]

i gave you 2 reason For heavens sake.... arggg oh well.

(outside of game tip)
Giving up is almost an automatic lynch. I've read it dozens of times and had it done to me once as well.
(ok back to game)

[Vendagoat]

Sefer as for your idea, I don't like it either as one of the cops might not feel like claiming. If thats the case it will have served nothing. Even if they both do claim, people are still apt to suspect them based on all the normal variety of claims, so at the end of the day, we are pretty much at square one. Your idea is perfect for an end game scenario, because when you can eliminate variables this game becomes a simple logic puzzle. Even with that I have read and almost been in a game, where someone spit in the eye of logic and just voted whatever and it cost them the game. So Sefar I say let's hold off on the claim thing until we can eliminate a few variables. I hate saying this, I really do, we have to go on hunches and feelings. I hate that, so much.

I myself am not exactly happy with how mafia is basically just talk and hope and am trying to work on something as well to make it a bit easier, especially on new players.

[Vendagoat]

(outside of game talk)
Personally I'd like to see a pre game thread for players, so people will know beforehand that the people you are playing with are not megalomaniacs. Some times I wonder though. This way newbies can bs with players, ask questions and maybe get some advice. Another thing that wouldn't be bad is a mentor like person so that if questions need to be asked mid game, you don't always have to rely on the mod. I got a question right now and I know I can't ask erg0 about it. Now if these things are already here, I missed them completely and that is purely my fault.
(end outside talk)

[Vendagoat]

I consider J-Man's story entirely plausible for a fresh-off-the-boat newbie error -- much more likley than the idea of claiming cop first thing as scum. Is it a mistake? Sure, though a single cop coming out in a two-cop game with a gaurunteed doc is actually more sensible than you might think.

If its a newbie error thats one thing. God knows I have made my fair share of them. The problem is, this early in the game you are looking for inconsistence's and what he did is a big one. Lynching any claimed role (except mafia ) is risky, but it happens in more games than I can count. I'm willing to come off of him, but I need another target or at the very least a better explination. Look J-man, calm down take a breathe and explain why you claimed cop so early again, then tell us who you suspect, in detail and we can go from there.

I don't think the other cop should claim -- nor do I want to know who J-man intends to investigate tonight.

Agreed on the first point, but I am wondering about the second. Look you say you believe him, and the cats already out of the bag then, why wouldn't you want to know who he will investigate and the result? Minor FOS.

I do not want to lynch J-man today -- the odds of him actually being a cop are just too high.

They are high and I agree it is entirely plausible he is a cop, but the way you get people talking in this game is with votes and he's starting to talk again, which is good for him if he is the cop. This will keep him alive if he can convince others and at the same time help the doc know who to protect and ultimatly help us find the scum.

In other words j-man, like I already said, keep talking. Show us why we should believe you and not just take you at face value. Show us who you suspect and why and lets go from there. Take a deep breathe first though and relax.

[Vendagoat]

J-man: because it gives the mafia a good kill choice that isn't a known cop. Moreover, if you are scum, it gives you a good excuse for why you don't have to report results.

I'd rather have them shooting in the dark, really.

Son of a bitch I never thought......

Wait a minute, doesn't a cop investigation just turn back a innocent or guilty verdict?

[Vendagoat]

Sorry about all the posts in a row.

The most common special role. The Cop can investigate a player each night and find out whether they are on the Scum or Pro-Town side. Depending on the variation, sometimes they can discover the role name as well.

So I guess this begs the question now if this is one of those variations.

[Vendagoat]

And vendagoat is trying to fuck around with the facts now. Seriously, how hard is it to know how to read instructions? You're obviously trying to confuse us if you are saying things like vendagoat just said.

Vote: Vendagoat

I'm sorry, what? Could you clarify this for me?
(I'm being serious, I'm not sure what your complaining about.)

[Vendagoat]

I had a faulty impression of what a cops investigation returned and corrected myself? Thats the problem? And this deserved a vote?

Wow, just wow. Khel you're really desperate for anything arn'tcha?

[Vendagoat]

Xyz, yogurt where you two at?

[Vendagoat]

Sef there is bleh right now.

If it'll make you happy

UNVOTE

You're right he's not the best play but he's the only person to make a huge mistake. Mistakes normally cost people.

Look I'm beat and half lit at the moment. I'll come back after some sleep and see what I can come up with.

[Vendagoat]

Ok I got three suspects.
Khev, Xyz and to a lesser extent Yogurt.

Going to do a short post here and a longer post later when I have time to put it together.
Khev: Short answers, started off craplogic.
Xyz: Stared off random, then lurked while the rest of us worked.
Yogurt: Just lurked while the rest of us worked, but the bits he has said have had a point.
So when I get home from work I will go through the thread in detail and get some quotes and such for you.

[Vendagoat]

Just got home, before I go back and get my quotes for everything, let me respond to this.

Wow, just wow. Khel you're really desperate for anything arn'tcha?

Let me rephrase that:

OMGUS!!!!!!!!!!!

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA

I didn't vote before, I made an observation on how you jump around with not much explanation. So congrats, this is the first time I have seen an OMGUS from a suspected OMGUS. Wow.
Now that that little tid bit is out there, let me go find more things that make you suspicious.

[Vendagoat]

Ok post 15 and 16 is XYz blowing up at yogurt for helping him.

Post 20

Not asking for claims. Asking for why I shouldn't think he's scum. He did something scummy.

But apparently he's not interested in defense.

Unvote, vote YB

Yogurt and Khelvaster are the 2 scum.

He jumps to conclusions and is looking for a quick lynch.

Post 22

Quick...everyone post screenshots of their role posts while erg0 is away :p

I've been told multiple times that humor is a scum tell. This is thin though, so let me get rolling.

This next bit is DIRECT CONTRADICTION
Post 27

Yogurt and Khelvaster are the 2 scum.

Wow...someone is really, really jumping to conclusions. Xyzzy reacted to my random vote with an attack on Yogurt, then OMGUS'd me for no good reason. It seems that what I said to him really struck a nerve. That is why I will

Confirm Vote: Xyzzy

Townies have no reason to jump to conclusions like xyzzy on the first page.

to post 39

HH, you really need to watch yourself. You jumped onto xyzzy pretty quickly...

and then in post 40 he tried to edit his way out of it.

EBWOP: Never mind...I don't know what I'm thinking. I'm so used to being ignored that I thought listening to me was a scumtell. Forget my last post.

Ok back to Xyz for a second (if you can't tell I'm just going through the thread and pointing out what I find wrong)
Post 48

Yogurt, are you scum?

Don't avoid that question. Give me good reasons why I should think otherwise, because right now I'm pretty sure you are.

You think Im scum be cause I QFTED the "I didnt joke about being scum". Poor reasoning.

Yes, the significant post was the QFT-ing post. I found that scummy, and for a good reason. Find the scumtell and prove to me that it isn't basis for your lynch.

I may be mistaken but wasn't yogurt defending you Xyz? If he was why are you so defensive? Possible distancing right there.

Post 55 Xyz again

Go read any of my games. This is how I ALWAYS play, whether I'm scum or town. Therefore, you can't use it as a basis to lynch me, because it doesn't change the likelihood that I'm scum.

While I have been in a game with him and yes he has been completly random in both, Ill let Mneme answer this one for me.
post 57

The "I play like crap" defense isn't actually a defense.

Ok sefar this part is for you. This is why I am still suspicious of j-man even with the claim.
post 62

Unvote, Vote: Khelvaster

No explanation, just a vote and when I challenge him on what seems to be a random vote on page three, we get.
post 64

oh good there are people that actually watch this thread good,

my explination for that was to see if it was worth my time to actually give a thought to this game

:S and yes im sorry about being gone for a week RL calls. Khelvaster was the target for no reason other then he posted last so now on with mafia

Unvote

He admits he made a vote JUST BECAUSE! oh and check the bold. Now he's claimed and free from suspicion? I think not! But, he hasn't been countered which to me means he is not the play for today.

Post 71
Now we get some yogurt...
Er actually maybe we just get a blurb from him. we haven't had more than a five word post from him since then. This man is lurking and LURKING HARD! We have had plenty of discussion, plenty of suspicion and this guy is laying back and letting us do all the work for him. Uh uh, that doesn't fly with me. I've noticed that scum pairs normally have one loudmouth and one quiet one. That right there is being quiet, 2 and half pages (approximately) of lurking.

after that is the j-man meltdown, which I don't think we need to get into again.

And then we got this. Post 106

And vendagoat is trying to fuck around with the facts now. Seriously, how hard is it to know how to read instructions? You're obviously trying to confuse us if you are saying things like vendagoat just said.

Vote: Vendagoat

This, to me, seems like an OMGUS attack and I have no real idea where it came from. I gave everyone my thoughts and corrected myself, using this sites wiki. How did I misrepresent something? I need clarification and look I even said that in post 109 and I never got an answer.

Sefer your post 118 I answered above about why I am still suspicious of j-man.

ok now we have post 122

Why 24 hours?

Seems strange, arbitrary, and very scummy.

Uh hmmmmm. Let's see I put a 24 hour clock on you Xyz and you're still alive. I can get behind a khel lynch today, but I also think everyone should have a chance to talk and defend themselves, we are not infalable, we/I might have missed something. I'll respect j-man's wishes for 24 hours. Again, why are you defending him? So now you are yelling at yogurt for defending you and then at the same time yelling at j-man for targeting someone else. You can't have your cake and eat it too buddy. Why attack one and defend the other. You really are two-faced.

In summation, I will go for either a Khel or Xyz lynch today, to a lesser extent a yogurt lynch. I will respect the 24 hour no hammer put forth from j-man. So till 1:37 pm july 24th then.

[Vendagoat]

so is it your intention to hammer at that time Venda? how many suspitious things he has done that post that you just made, makes me think that som1 else deserves the target on there back for now.

im going to look for some more quotes and then get back to this.
(im on plenty so if he actually waits for the 24hrs i'll have plenty of time to unvote if i see fit.)

I do what I say I do. I will wait till 1:37 to vote. As I already said, khel or xyz is fine with me.

I will seperate everything that vendagoat says about me from what he says about xyzzy, since I don't really have a reason to think xyzzy is town, while I do have a reason to think I am town . On to the defence:

Quick...everyone post screenshots of their role posts while erg0 is away :p

I've been told multiple times that humor is a scum tell. This is thin though, so let me get rolling.

Vendagoat, you are on a very thin leash with me. The main reason I am not voting you is so you won't OMGUS and hammer me. Look at why I am in the situation I am in: I said xyzzy's post, which was meant to be humorous, was a slight scumtell. You just said my post, which was humorous and completely unrelated to lynching or voting in any way, was a scumtell.

So you're agreeing that humor is a scumtell? Thanks.

Yeah, I was feeling pretty demoralized ATM because of some stuff happening in some other games. Nobody had listened to me, and we got put into a very bad position. It was something to do with me posting a very good case against someone, a townie listening to me and voting on the scum, and then getting lynched for "BWing." Notice the EBWOP--I realized that he was just agreeing with what I said and that it isn't necessarily a scumtell to agree with me. I admit that I screw up when I screw up--I don't go around hiding it like some other people in this game.

This entire quote is nothing more than a dodge. It's not even an explanation, it's simply a dodge. Yes I noticed the EBWOP. And what if in one post you just came out admitted being scum and the next you EBWOP, are we just supposed to ignore it? No, for better or for worse, you said those things. This isn't a simple missed bracket for quotes, it was a complete and utter direct contradiction.

You are an idiot. Seriously. He admitted to making a vote as a game-prod. There is nothing scummy about that--he retracted the vote as soon as a few people posted. That is pro-town more than anything else. You are seeming more and more scummy as I read through this analysis. Either state all of someone's defence or ignore it--cherry picking is bad.

Ok fine let's go from your argument for a moment, just below this one. Then its also a mods responsibility to prod a game by deadlining it, not a player. As for cherry picking, its a necessity to get to the heart of the matter. People often dolly up dog shit with perfume, to make it seem better. Reading between the lines and discerning motives is this entire game.

You can't have noticed too much *glances at vendagoat's signup date*. Accusing players of lurking and trying to get them lynched is a scumtell. Asking a mod to prod them isn't.

Everything in this game is a scumtell. Show me a town tell and then we will talk. This is a logical fallacy and thats as much as I will be responding to it. Oh and thanks for the mud slung at me. Yes I'm new.

I am sorry--I didn't see that post. Here is how: you were using arguments based off of your made-up fact that cops only get innocent-guilty results, and also trying to question cop sanity in an OPEN game.

post 101

Son of a bitch I never thought......

Wait a minute, doesn't a cop investigation just turn back a innocent or guilty verdict?

post102

Sorry about all the posts in a row.

The most common special role. The Cop can investigate a player each night and find out whether they are on the Scum or Pro-Town side. Depending on the variation, sometimes they can discover the role name as well.

So I guess this begs the question now if this is one of those variations.

I made no such arguments. Can you not be bothered to even read the game? The person who brought up the sanity question was J-MAN himself! Add to this the fact that the WIKI agrees with me. Pro-town or Scum. Innocent or guilty and SOMETIMES the role.
Post 97

PS- the reason i say we should do a sanity test is because if we are both sane, the town can easily destroy the mafia in a couple nights. with well placed investagations reducing the # of double investagations to a minimum.

So please Khel, keep talking. Your rebuttals are weak, your logic is flawed and you are OMGUSing me for some reason.

[Vendagoat]

Little late, work has been busy.

Following my word here.

VOTE:KHEL

[Vendagoat]

uh dude he's not lynched yet Sefer unvoted everythings fine, the world hasn't exploded. Which post I might have missed it since my last post was a quick one from work.

[Vendagoat]

so is it your intention to hammer at that time Venda? how many suspitious things he has done that post that you just made, makes me think that som1 else deserves the target on there back for now.

im going to look for some more quotes and then get back to this.
(im on plenty so if he actually waits for the 24hrs i'll have plenty of time to unvote if i see fit.)

If you mean this one, then i did respond.

I do what I say I do. I will wait till 1:37 to vote. As I already said, khel or xyz is fine with me.

[Vendagoat]

No, I am saying hypocrisy is. Telling me that I am wrong for doing something when you do it is a scumtell, regardless of whether or not the thing you're doing is actually wrong.

Yeah, and I realized what I said was wrong as soon as I said it. I said it without thinking through what I had said. I wasn't trying to be hypocritical, hence the EBWOP. If I were trying to deceive you, I wouldn't have done an EBWOP a minute after posting.

So you admit that J-man is clearly town?

Yes, you did make those arguments, as you'd have noticed if you bothered to read your posts that you used in your defense. Also, I focused on you instead of J-man because J-man has contributed much more to this game than you have.

Also, regarding xyzzy, I think that you are trying to make everything seem split between me and him because he is your scumbuddy. You will forget him tomorrow, but your distancing will be so good nobody will think he was scum.

First response is wifom

Second part is also wifom especially this phrase; "If I were trying to deceive you, I wouldn't have done an EBWOP a minute after posting.'

No I do not make the statement that he is 100% town, quit putting words in my mouth.

Same thing for the next, I never questioned his sanity, I questioned what the return of the investigation would be and I found my answer in the wiki and quoted it.

As for XYZ, I'll vote him right now. Personally after this post though I am 90% convinced you are scum attempting to push a bullet off of you. Your arguments are twists and your attacks are baseless. You have turned into a gigantic OMGUS. You are hereby my front runner for a scum, Xyz directly behind you.

CONFIRM VOTE:KHEL

[Vendagoat]

Still here, Khel, Xyz, yogurt is still my list.

[Vendagoat]

Thoughts on this from YB and Vendagoat? You guys have mostly been lying low.

I've been rather busy at work and confess I havn't been paying too much attention to this game, or any of the others for that matter.

Simply put, I do not like the claim today idea as there is just too many ways it could be screwed up. I think a day two mass claim would make drastically more sense as there would be less variables, I know that is cold, but that is how I feel.

[Vendagoat]

Huh, This is what I get for checking this thread before bed time.

Here is where the shit hits the fan, I'm a cop. So besides getting thrown in the spotlight, I now have to figure out if the trust I put in a new player was unfounded or is my original suspicion of XYZ was correct.

Since khel is no longer the play of today

UNVOTE

Now I have a 50/50 chance, it seems, of killing some scum. So I am holding off until I can be absolutely sure, but so far I still like Xyz as the false claimer. Let me read, but this is still a slightly bad time for me. I will be out of town for tomorrow evening only. I will return on Friday at some point, I'm not sure I will have internet access while I am gone, besides it's only for 36 hours at most and I will check this thread while I am at work tomorrow.

I would ask for the rest of you to hold off till I get back, but I realize that is not going to happen.

[Vendagoat]

Little quick on the draw there mneme. I'm up for another hour or so now, I know you have questions and accusations, go ahead and I will answer the best I can.

[Vendagoat]

Ok meneme walk me through this cause I am a little fuzzy.

Your banking on us not lynching a cop today and those cops investigate the other cops?

It just doesn't add up with all the combinations that could happen. Look I'm all for following a logical plan, but I really need this one explained to me.

And even though this puts a noose a little closer around my neck, why go after the unknown when you know one of three players is scum?

I'm just confused is all.

[Vendagoat]

Sorry about the misspell on your name.

[Vendagoat]

Xyz, no need to explain anything yet, I wanna see what this plan is that sefar and mneme have. So I guess we all are waiting for YB.

[Vendagoat]

Let's assume 3 claimed cops. One is scum.

If we lynch 1, we've got a 1/3 chance of getting a scum, and a 2/3 chance of getting a cop.

If we get a scum, yay! But that's only a 1/3 chance.

If we get a cop, we have to repeat the exercise tomorrow, with a 50% chance of just losing, and no useful cop investigations unless we guess right. So 1/3 chance of insta-loss (2/3 of lynching a cop * 1/2 chance of losing the LoL bet), 1/3 chance of a likely win, and a lot of murky odds in between.

By contrast, if we lynch a non-cop, and the cops investigate one another (note that any cop investigation is just fine; they can investigate randomly -- because an innocent on one means the other is guilty, etc), if a cop doesn't die, we find out who the scum is. If the scum target the cop, though, they've got a 1/3 chance of missing their kill (which gives us two living cops for day 3), and even if they -kill- a cop, that means they didn't winnow down the doctor -- and we've -still- got a 50% chance of lynching a scum on day 2.

If both scum claim cop on day 1, we've got a very different set of probabilities -- but those can wait (and be debated) after we find out what YB is claiming.

Ok i get the 1/3 chance if we go with a cop, but isn't it a 1/4 chance on the others? and a 1/4 chance of accidentally killing the doc? Again going off your assumption that one scum has claimed cop.

See this is why I was against the mass claim. Not to mention this whole thing can get blown up into a giant case of wifom.

[Vendagoat]

Wait let me see if I understand this, I just had the ten watt go off above my head. You want to go for the longer odds today and take slightly better odds tomorrow?

[Vendagoat]

If I were scum, I would not have pushed so hard for something that puts me on the suspect list.

YB is obviously one of the scum, regardless of what he claims...

However, I want him to claim before we go on.

Quoting this for a third time in this thread just to show how huge of a scum tell this is.

I think I got down what you want to do mneme, but this is hard to pass up.

I'll probably vote tomorrow before I leave.

[Vendagoat]

Ok not much since I last checked.

I'm going to hold off on voting till I get back. Like I said guys, shouldn't be anymore than 36 hours and I have no idea if my hotel will have internet access.

If they do, then I really didn't need to write this message did I?

[Vendagoat]

I'm not back yet and the internet connection at the hotel is sporadic at best, but I'm here damnit. So now that we go the YB claim, we are looking for scum not in the cop claim crowd, correct?

[Vendagoat]

I am so angry right now I can barely see straight. I let a major slip go because I thought a new player had made a mistake. I actually bought into his act of a stupid newbie. God damnit! I can't believe that j-man, you actually drew me in and hooked me.

Yah a real newbie alright, friggen role-fishing scum.

I...

I'm going to go cool off now, before I just write a string of expletives.

FUCK!

[Vendagoat]

I investigated Xyz because I have suspected him since day one and from the fact that I truly did believe j-man's claim of cop. I'm still pissed about this, I literally feel used.
Xyz was innocent.

[Vendagoat]

Oh and sefer you realize you could possibly be giving the scum the win here? You sound sure and all, but fast lynching in LYLO is normally a scum tactic, from my experience.

Others can tell me I'm wrong but, that just looks bad.

[Vendagoat]

My cop tells throughout the game.
This is the start. At the time j-man had just claimed and the whole fiasco had just started. At the time I was very suspious of him because why would a cop claim without reason? We were all talking about it and I tried to intimate I was a cop by the use of the all cap both. So that if he was a newbie who just made a mistake, he had someone to trust. He started to come around and it seemed everyone trusted him. I tried to keep him calm and was even feeling good because I helped a newbie out, something I really didn't have much luck with in other games. Mneme can confirm that one.

ok there are 2 reasons that i claimed cop
1. because this game was not moving anywhere it needed a jump start that was enough provoking for me.
2. since there are 2 cops we could effectively sweep the whole populace for mafia in several short nights Lynch's aside, this is assuming that both cops are sane ;P but if we corrodinate our moves we can find out whether or not we are aswell, i hope you guys see my point.

1. So jumping out in front of the train and yelling stop is the best idea?
2. Yes and we could use BOTH cops, not just have one throw his life away needlessly! Which is why no self respecting cop would ever just out himself for no reason.
I can see and understand your point, but try and see it from ours. The game is lagging, a few players are attempting to get things rolling and BAM here you come out of left field. For no reason you stand up and scream "hey guys look at me!" well, we are. You got yourself into this situation, now convince us as why to believe you. especially after the mighty big hole you've just dug.

Here's the second bit, I told sefer straight out a cop, me, did not feel like claiming.

Sefer as for your idea, I don't like it either as one of the cops might not feel like claiming. If thats the case it will have served nothing. Even if they both do claim, people are still apt to suspect them based on all the normal variety of claims, so at the end of the day, we are pretty much at square one. Your idea is perfect for an end game scenario, because when you can eliminate variables this game becomes a simple logic puzzle. Even with that I have read and almost been in a game, where someone spit in the eye of logic and just voted whatever and it cost them the game. So Sefar I say let's hold off on the claim thing until we can eliminate a few variables. I hate saying this, I really do, we have to go on hunches and feelings. I hate that, so much.

I myself am not exactly happy with how mafia is basically just talk and hope and am trying to work on something as well to make it a bit easier, especially on new players.

This bit is to show how I myself got caught in to his story. We didn't know about Xyz yet and I thought I found a kindred spirit. This post is where I really started to think he could be a cop. I tried to help him, keep him talking and such. Since no one else had claimed cop yet and I still didn't want to claim, I wanted him to stick around by talking, so that I had a partner.

I consider J-Man's story entirely plausible for a fresh-off-the-boat newbie error -- much more likley than the idea of claiming cop first thing as scum. Is it a mistake? Sure, though a single cop coming out in a two-cop game with a gaurunteed doc is actually more sensible than you might think.

If its a newbie error thats one thing. God knows I have made my fair share of them. The problem is, this early in the game you are looking for inconsistence's and what he did is a big one. Lynching any claimed role (except mafia ) is risky, but it happens in more games than I can count. I'm willing to come off of him, but I need another target or at the very least a better explination. Look J-man, calm down take a breathe and explain why you claimed cop so early again, then tell us who you suspect, in detail and we can go from there.

I don't think the other cop should claim -- nor do I want to know who J-man intends to investigate tonight.

Agreed on the first point, but I am wondering about the second. Look you say you believe him, and the cats already out of the bag then, why wouldn't you want to know who he will investigate and the result? Minor FOS.

I do not want to lynch J-man today -- the odds of him actually being a cop are just too high.

They are high and I agree it is entirely plausible he is a cop, but the way you get people talking in this game is with votes and he's starting to talk again, which is good for him if he is the cop. This will keep him alive if he can convince others and at the same time help the doc know who to protect and ultimatly help us find the scum.

In other words j-man, like I already said, keep talking. Show us why we should believe you and not just take you at face value. Show us who you suspect and why and lets go from there. Take a deep breathe first though and relax.

This right here is probably the biggest tell. I still don't like a claim, but I love a second day claim as there is much less chance of a screwup. Why? Because I would have an investigation and with less people I could just turn what is left into a logic puzzle. (example) I=A investigation=B If A and B is innocent then scum must be in last three players, now add in the second cops investigation and you can narrow it down more. Myself and a cop did this exact thing in my second newbie game and we won.

Thoughts on this from YB and Vendagoat? You guys have mostly been lying low.

I've been rather busy at work and confess I haven't been paying too much attention to this game, or any of the others for that matter.

Simply put, I do not like the claim today idea as there is just too many ways it could be screwed up. I think a day two mass claim would make drastically more sense as there would be less variables, I know that is cold, but that is how I feel.

Now as for the reason I am so pissed, I've since calmed, is that I completely and totally bought into j-man's "ineptitude". It was all a lie and I feel betrayed, I mean at the end of the day this is just a game and all, but I haven't been played like that in some time. If you want me to show how and why I bought into this I will, but I'm still a little mad and its rather embarrassing. I'll do it if you want, I'd just rather not.

I'll come back with more later, blargh man, just blargh.

[Vendagoat]

Vote: j-man

[Vendagoat]

Oh thank god this is over.

J-man: Dude I am so completely sorry for what I did to you. I truly hope I did not put you off of mafia, I took absolutely no pleasure in playing you like that. I felt so damn scummy.

Mneme: phew, couldn't get you in one game, but I am glad I got you in this one. The fire and ice game really did upset me, so I tried to channel as much into this game as I could. I am glad I snuck past a veteran like you.

Xyz: Buddy, I am sorry, every game you and I have been in so far has ended badly. I hope there is no hard feelings.

Yogurt and Sefer: Dudes, good game. I thought for sure yogurt was going to come out of his lurk mode and destroy the crap out of us. Sefer dude, you came so close to the truth so many times, I'm amazed I'm still alive.

Guys good game, but I really do not like being scum. It feels so disgusting doing what I did for this game. Khev man, thanks for being a great partner, but I really hope I never pull scum again. Ugh.

[Vendagoat]

Hey ergo I think you did a wonderful job!

[Vendagoat]

Does j-man even know the game is over?