Mini 1646: Quil's Smalltown (Game over!)

[Bookitty]

I don't think you've been antagonistic to me. Post 124 is pretty antagonistic, and your tone with Marquis wasn't making me think of puppies and kittens either.

You've consistently given short answers and minimal information. The most recent example is when I asked you about your confidence in playing power roles. "Just depends." That's the attitude I mean, most specifically -- the shortest answer that gives the least information. I was trying to figure out your alignment, but your ISO is giving ZERO help in that.

Every reason you give for wanting to keep ascetic out of scum hands is a reason scum might want it. Choosing ascetic in the first place gives your slot an expiration date. I wouldn't think you'd be surprised that people want to lynch you since they can't investigate you. You're giving them nothing to read you with either.

[DeasVail]

Who here has played with aronis?

*Looks at reck*

Pretty sure you have.

Most people find him scummy.
His response is typical aronis. :headsmack:

Who here has played with aronis?

*Looks at reck*

Pretty sure you have.

Most people find him scummy.
His response is typical aronis. :headsmack:

is this you saying he's town

what warrants a response here, exactly

Aronis is an easy mislynch. I've seen it a number of games.
I'm wondering what makes him scum this game.

Farside, I see a lot of complaining about people scumreading Aronis, but I've said why I think this as have others, so if you want people to townread him, you need to explain how the things we are accusing him of are actually things he does anyway. If not, then we can't take you seriously because you're saying we're ignoring you but you're not backing up anything you're saying.

Next up to express interest will be pine.
This scumtastic wagon is brought to you by scum r us.
Yes scum r us.

Good I feel mafia with a twist all over again coming.

I also don't understand this quote. It's more complaining without any real substance behind it, nor much attempt to explain why Aronis is town/why the wagon is scum.

[DeasVail]

Jingle, this is just theory-based and so feel free to ignore, but I disagree with the gentleman thief being particularly useful for scum since uses are announced in the game thread. On that note, I'm also unsure of how beneficial it would be for it to constantly change hands, because of the transparency of such an action. I will refrain from expressing my opinion on the BP for obvious reasons. I also disagree about the Archivist/Cop roles being that unlikely for scum, especially the cop, since looking at the role PMs the serial killer should show up as innocent to the cop, so why would serial killer kill a cop? Archivist is arguable, but Bookitty seems town so far so I don't care so much about that right now. I also don't get why you're telling scum what not to do?

Wouldn't there be a talk about what to take?

I just think changing his mind on what to pick would get people voting him and there is more advantage to keeping rb as scum.

I find it interesting how you're leaping from one reason to defend Aronis to a totally unrelated one. In response to this, I have thought about it and don't see much that I can take as being incredibly indicative of alignment. First, while scum did have pregame talk, I wouldn't expect them to be constantly online and chatting (many scumteams I've been on have been pretty limited communication-wise), so I think it's quite likely that scum may have chosen roles without direct consultation with their partners, especially early on. Changing his mind may be something unlikely from scum, but I consider it possible enough to overlook, and I think it's pretty arguable whether ascetic or rb is more useful for scum.

[DeasVail]

I've thought about it some more and roleblocker actually kind of sucks for scum, because you don't have the freedom that would come with being an anonymous roleblocker. So, Aronis could very well have realised that while roleblocker is normally a lovely scum role, it's not here, which could have prompted the change in decision. I don't think this is a reason to think he's scum so much as a reason not to townread him for changing his role, and I'm actually a lot less passionate about Aronis being scum right now than one might expect, but I'm cool with the wagon as it is right now and I'm eager to hear more from Aronis.

[Jingle]

Jingle, this is just theory-based and so feel free to ignore, but I disagree with the gentleman thief being particularly useful for scum since uses are announced in the game thread. On that note, I'm also unsure of how beneficial it would be for it to constantly change hands, because of the transparency of such an action. I will refrain from expressing my opinion on the BP for obvious reasons. I also disagree about the Archivist/Cop roles being that unlikely for scum, especially the cop, since looking at the role PMs the serial killer should show up as innocent to the cop, so why would serial killer kill a cop? Archivist is arguable, but Bookitty seems town so far so I don't care so much about that right now. I also don't get why you're telling scum what not to do?

I missed the SK being cop immune bit (and I kinda wish you hadn't mentioned it), so reck is not as town as he was, but he's still nowhere near on the table D1 by role. I also missed the Gentleman being public, that's my bad as well and so not as important to be used. Archivist on the other hand is almost certainly town. He watches Reck tonight, and if reck dies we lynch scum. If not we have a confirmed not-group-scum player, which may be confirmed town at some point, or a scumlynch.

With that said, Thief is totally high scum value because not only is it a rolethief, but a rolethief that also roleblocks most actions. And I'm pushing scum towards certain behaviors because recognizing the optimal play for scum allows us to play around it and force scum into certain patterns which we can then use to find them. If we can anticipate and manipulate scumplans for our benefit, then we have a good chance at cracking the setup. specifically, I'm pushing scum away from successfully killing our investigative roles before they get a shot off.

I have more theory work to put in, but I think we should leave it here for now. I'm gonna work on an optimal play for town and scum later in the day phase and try to figure out what should happen action wise.

I've thought about it some more and roleblocker actually kind of sucks for scum, because you don't have the freedom that would come with being an anonymous roleblocker. So, Aronis could very well have realised that while roleblocker is normally a lovely scum role, it's not here, which could have prompted the change in decision. I don't think this is a reason to think he's scum so much as a reason not to townread him for changing his role, and I'm actually a lot less passionate about Aronis being scum right now than one might expect, but I'm cool with the wagon as it is right now and I'm eager to hear more from Aronis.

Who else are you looking at currently? Why?

[DeasVail]

Thanks for your answers Jingle. Sorry about revealing the cop thing but it's there for anyone who wants to look at it and I'd rather say it than have people think that Reck is super-town or think that whoever he investigates can't be the serial killer if they show up as not mafia.

As for your question, it is a fair question, but I've said about all I want to at this stage.

[Quilford]

• 
  
  Vote count 1.5
  
  
  Aronis (4)— DeasVail, Marquis, Flubbernugget, xRECKONERx
  Jingle (2)— Shiidaji, Antihero
  farside22 (2)— Jingle, Pine
  Pine (2)— farside22, Grib
  
  Not Voting (3)— Bookitty, Jake from State Farm, Aronis
  
  It takes 7 to lynch or no lynch.
  
  
  Deadline
  
  
  Day 1 will be 10 days long. It ends in (expired on 2015-02-24 21:15:09).
  
  
  Mod notes
  
  
  Remember, you can request an updated Role PM containing your selected role's info any time you like, as detailed in the Setup post.

[farside22]

Who here has played with aronis?

*Looks at reck*

Pretty sure you have.

Most people find him scummy.
His response is typical aronis. :headsmack:

Sorry about inactivity today; I fell asleep

@Farside: Does Aronis typically act this way regardless of alignment?

I haven't played with him before that I remember. My objection to him (apart from role related things, most notably the stutter-step about roleblocker vs. ascetic) is attitude. He's doling out information very sparingly and he seems really antagonistic in response to questions.

I asked him if he was confident in his ability to play power roles because that would have been an answer as to why one would pick ascetic over roleblocker. I'm not terribly confident myself but I'm planning on asking who I should target and then picking semi-randomly from the responses given. It's not like I need to hide in this game.

I think if you pick a role that can't be read you ought to be willing to eat the lynch because it's going to be necessary unless you town it up incredibly and basically prove yourself through other means. Aronis hasn't done that. He's done the opposite of that. You're saying he's abrasive, I think -- if he knows that, then it's on him to either choose a different role or to demonstrate he's town through play.

If this is his playstyle, we're going to have to lynch him at some point anyway for being unreadable and/or scummy. Why shouldn't it be today?

Aronis has foot in mouth issues. There are many times he post things that have been looked at as scummy.
He also has made bad choices as town. I don't expect him to use a role well but I could be bias based on one game.

Why is being abressive behavoir scummy? Have you ever seen players change bad behavoir before?

[farside22]

Who here has played with aronis?

*Looks at reck*

Pretty sure you have.

Most people find him scummy.
His response is typical aronis. :headsmack:

Who here has played with aronis?

*Looks at reck*

Pretty sure you have.

Most people find him scummy.
His response is typical aronis. :headsmack:

is this you saying he's town

what warrants a response here, exactly

Aronis is an easy mislynch. I've seen it a number of games.
I'm wondering what makes him scum this game.

Farside, I see a lot of complaining about people scumreading Aronis, but I've said why I think this as have others, so if you want people to townread him, you need to explain how the things we are accusing him of are actually things he does anyway. If not, then we can't take you seriously because you're saying we're ignoring you but you're not backing up anything you're saying.

Next up to express interest will be pine.
This scumtastic wagon is brought to you by scum r us.
Yes scum r us.

Good I feel mafia with a twist all over again coming.

I also don't understand this quote. It's more complaining without any real substance behind it, nor much attempt to explain why Aronis is town/why the wagon is scum.

The wagon I believe had 4 votes and 2 that expressed interest in voting.
I think it's a bit quick on a player I've seen mislynched.

I'm terrible explaining anything town reasoning, but from my prospective quick votes, little said, scum on wagon.

Jingle, this is just theory-based and so feel free to ignore, but I disagree with the gentleman thief being particularly useful for scum since uses are announced in the game thread. On that note, I'm also unsure of how beneficial it would be for it to constantly change hands, because of the transparency of such an action. I will refrain from expressing my opinion on the BP for obvious reasons. I also disagree about the Archivist/Cop roles being that unlikely for scum, especially the cop, since looking at the role PMs the serial killer should show up as innocent to the cop, so why would serial killer kill a cop? Archivist is arguable, but Bookitty seems town so far so I don't care so much about that right now. I also don't get why you're telling scum what not to do?

Wouldn't there be a talk about what to take?

I just think changing his mind on what to pick would get people voting him and there is more advantage to keeping rb as scum.

I find it interesting how you're leaping from one reason to defend Aronis to a totally unrelated one. In response to this, I have thought about it and don't see much that I can take as being incredibly indicative of alignment. First, while scum did have pregame talk, I wouldn't expect them to be constantly online and chatting (many scumteams I've been on have been pretty limited communication-wise), so I think it's quite likely that scum may have chosen roles without direct consultation with their partners, especially early on. Changing his mind may be something unlikely from scum, but I consider it possible enough to overlook, and I think it's pretty arguable whether ascetic or rb is more useful for scum.

I've thought about it some more and roleblocker actually kind of sucks for scum, because you don't have the freedom that would come with being an anonymous roleblocker. So, Aronis could very well have realised that while roleblocker is normally a lovely scum role, it's not here, which could have prompted the change in decision. I don't think this is a reason to think he's scum so much as a reason not to townread him for changing his role, and I'm actually a lot less passionate about Aronis being scum right now than one might expect, but I'm cool with the wagon as it is right now and I'm eager to hear more from Aronis.

Some of what you said about aronis was a bit theorish so I went with a theory.
I also don't understand one thing with the above, do you think scum don't communicate or chat pregame?

I disagree about the boo town read.

[farside22]

• 
  
  Vote count 1.5
  
  
  Aronis (4)— DeasVail, Marquis, Flubbernugget, xRECKONERx
  Jingle (2)— Shiidaji, Antihero
  farside22 (2)— Jingle, Pine
  Pine (2)— farside22, Grib
  
  Not Voting (3)— Bookitty, Jake from State Farm, Aronis
  
  It takes 7 to lynch or no lynch.
  
  
  Deadline
  
  
  Day 1 will be 10 days long. It ends in (expired on 2015-02-24 21:15:09).
  
  
  Mod notes
  
  
  Remember, you can request an updated Role PM containing your selected role's info any time you like, as detailed in the Setup post.

Yeah I was right about 4 votes.

[Bookitty]

Aronis has foot in mouth issues. There are many times he post things that have been looked at as scummy.
He also has made bad choices as town. I don't expect him to use a role well but I could be bias based on one game.

1. Why is being abressive behavoir scummy?
2. Have you ever seen players change bad behavoir before?

1. It's not. It makes you more likely to be lynched, though.
2. I have. I don't see how that's relevant.

If I had chosen ascetic, I would expect to be lynched unless I acted really really town. Because I think that, I wouldn't have picked it even if it had been an option because I would consider that I was depriving town of one person pretty much automatically. What I think doesn't dictate what Aronis thinks, but this didn't thrill me:

So roleblocker is probably my favorite 'normal' mafia role. And basically my idea was to pick a powerful role and keep it out of scum hands, at first I thought roleblocker, but after thinking about it, if the cop gets blocked we'll know who's responsible, so it isn't as powerful due to it being public. Ascetic, on the other hand, is extremely helpful, because they become immune to everything, except the sk kill and getting lynched.

Yet later on he forgot about the SK kill when defending Farside despite thinking of it both during his role selection and during his defense of his role selection:

@Jingle: I had forgotten about the SK.

Let me flip this question for you, Farside:

Why is Aronis town? We can't investigate him to check, he mostly gives one or two line answers that provide minimal information, and he's chosen a role that by his own admission is extremely helpful for scum.

Why are you so convinced he's town?

[farside22]

Aronis has foot in mouth issues. There are many times he post things that have been looked at as scummy.
He also has made bad choices as town. I don't expect him to use a role well but I could be bias based on one game.

1. Why is being abressive behavoir scummy?
2. Have you ever seen players change bad behavoir before?

1. It's not. It makes you more likely to be lynched, though.
2. I have. I don't see how that's relevant.

1. so why is this something you pointed out against aronis
2. like who? this is serious because I see more and more players who don't learn and still do bad things like not mafia is an example of lurking it up all game long and not caring.

If I had chosen ascetic, I would expect to be lynched unless I acted really really town. Because I think that, I wouldn't have picked it even if it had been an option because I would consider that I was depriving town of one person pretty much automatically. What I think doesn't dictate what Aronis thinks, but this didn't thrill me:

So roleblocker is probably my favorite 'normal' mafia role. And basically my idea was to pick a powerful role and keep it out of scum hands, at first I thought roleblocker, but after thinking about it, if the cop gets blocked we'll know who's responsible, so it isn't as powerful due to it being public. Ascetic, on the other hand, is extremely helpful, because they become immune to everything, except the sk kill and getting lynched.

Yet later on he forgot about the SK kill when defending Farside despite thinking of it both during his role selection and during his defense of his role selection:

@Jingle: I had forgotten about the SK.

Let me flip this question for you, Farside:

Why is Aronis town? We can't investigate him to check, he mostly gives one or two line answers that provide minimal information, and he's chosen a role that by his own admission is extremely helpful for scum.

Why are you so convinced he's town?

[/quote]

everyone acts the same = scum?
you have this expectation of players that far exceeds my expectation. You seem to think they all fit in a nice, neat little category of common sense.
You can't be that naive.

As for aronis, he isn't a town read, but I don't like the speed of the wagon or those that jumped on it. Do you think that a quick wagon leads to a scum lynch for sure?
Or would you question it?
Also I will note most of your push is based on aronis role and not him as scum.

[Bookitty]

Archivist on the other hand is almost certainly town. He watches Reck tonight, and if reck dies we lynch scum.

That isn't how my role works as I understand it.

You are the Archivist.

This means that along with your voice and your vote, you also possess the following special ability:

>>> Archives: Each Night you may nominate the current or a previous Night phase and a player.
You will be told who, if anyone, the nominated player targeted on the nominated Night phase.

Targeting Reck won't help. I'm essentially a tracker, not a watcher. HOWEVER, the good part is that if we can figure out a group of the most likely suspects, then I get two shots out of that group to see whodunnit; one where I'm basically on my own and one that can be directed by town since scum can't retroactively not be the one doing the kill. Like a do-over if I don't get it right the first time.

[Bookitty]

Yeah, I'm not voting him yet, Farside. My push was to get answers from him.

You say Aronis always plays this way as town or scum. (Well, you're sort of tentative, but that's what I'm getting from you.) By waffling on his role choice and then choosing one that by his own statements is super useful for scum, he's already put on a big sticker that says: Hi! My name is: Probscum. It's on him to show that he's worth more to town as an asset than as a settled question mark.

My question to him about power roles was a lifeline of sorts, I guess. If I'd taken roleblocker, I would have targeted people with no obvious night actions (ascetic or encryptor, for instance) and hoped that this would stop a nightkill. I'm not sure that I'd have been that great in that role. If Aronis had said something indicating that he was not confident about his ability to play the role to best benefit in this game, I would have understood that. Instead, he originally said it was one of his favorite roles and then answered my question with "Just depends." What am I supposed to derive from that?

You've defended him more than he has, which is odd for someone you don't have as a town-read.

[farside22]

unless I feel good about the player who is getting votes i will typically look at the wagon to see who is scum on it.
It doesn't matter if its a town read or scum read. Its my thoughts of okay I see a player that I know can be mislynched, I see votes cast on him and suddenly 4 votes with 2 of interest.
Something doesn't look good to me about the wagon.

I think I made that pretty clear kitty.

I think it's rediculous to believe scum is going to wave this red flag saying what you believe kitty.

I mean no one ask marquis why he picked his role. What could he say other then keep it from scum hands now that you gave him that response? Where are people asking why Pine took thief? Sure it's public knowledge but I can tell you without thinking my bet he will use his ability on me.


hmmmmm

Mod: Can the thief use the ability they stole get that same night?

[farside22]

bleck post preview will be my friend one day

mod: can the thief use the ability he stole from on the same night

[Quilford]

• 
  

  mod: can the thief use the ability he stole from on the same night

  
  No, they can't.
  

[Bookitty]

I mean no one ask marquis why he picked his role. What could he say other then keep it from scum hands now that you gave him that response?

theoretically the best course of action is to make selection phase similar to an early day 1 and determine the towniest "good/threatening" player and give them encryptor so scum has to make the decision to kill a town pr or kill a threatening player but 1) i will only trust myself for a long while this game 2) it is absolutely critical that scum don't get encryptor in this setup and 3) i don't have to worry about my pr fucking things up/being tempted not to follow plans

contemplated coroner but doesn't matter as much as encryptor since scum lying about that result is basically just saying "yo can some1 crosskill me kthx"

same for cop

Not a very good point, Farside. I expect better from you.

Why do you think Pine is going to steal your role? Why do you think he'd be targeted for a nightkill tonight if you think he's scum and are voting him?

[Aronis]

I don't think you've been antagonistic to me. Post 124 is pretty antagonistic, and your tone with Marquis wasn't making me think of puppies and kittens either.

You've consistently given short answers and minimal information. The most recent example is when I asked you about your confidence in playing power roles. "Just depends." That's the attitude I mean, most specifically -- the shortest answer that gives the least information. I was trying to figure out your alignment, but your ISO is giving ZERO help in that.

Every reason you give for wanting to keep ascetic out of scum hands is a reason scum might want it. Choosing ascetic in the first place gives your slot an expiration date. I wouldn't think you'd be surprised that people want to lynch you since they can't investigate you. You're giving them nothing to read you with either.

Those votes had no reasoning behind them and were very opportunistic.

Then I will elaborate. I don't mind having a power role, I just don't always know what the optimal use for it is. My preference would probably just be VT, but it just depends on what type of role it is.

[Aronis]

I've thought about it some more and roleblocker actually kind of sucks for scum, because you don't have the freedom that would come with being an anonymous roleblocker. So, Aronis could very well have realised that while roleblocker is normally a lovely scum role, it's not here, which could have prompted the change in decision. I don't think this is a reason to think he's scum so much as a reason not to townread him for changing his role, and I'm actually a lot less passionate about Aronis being scum right now than one might expect, but I'm cool with the wagon as it is right now and I'm eager to hear more from Aronis.

Isn't that the same way with about every role though? You'll have to claim night actions, so you can't use it freely.

[Marquis]

drive to lynch aronis still strengthening steadily

[Marquis]

i made a decently-sized aronis meta post that's been ignored completely by all parties what's up with that let's lynch him

[Bookitty]

i made a decently-sized aronis meta post that's been ignored completely by all parties what's up with that let's lynch him

I don't have meta on him so I didn't have a lot to say about it.

What do you think of this from Farside, please?

I mean no one ask marquis why he picked his role. What could he say other then keep it from scum hands now that you gave him that response? Where are people asking why Pine took thief? Sure it's public knowledge but I can tell you without thinking my bet he will use his ability on me.

[Marquis]

it's fine not much of a complaint just an observation in the midst of lots of dancing and careful wording from aronis

[Grib]

God, I read this entire page and I want to respond to exactly zero of it.

Is there any way to use our roles in a sort of circle of protection, say A watches B who protects C who guards D who tracks E who blocks F and so on, to make it easier to catch the kill?