Mini #1647: Eine Kleine Nacht-Mord, Game Over

[Derangement]

UNVOTE:

Any progress in catching up?

[Untrod Tripod]

not acting like mastin is a good thing

mastin is lovely, but we only need ONE

[onion]

I hope you don't mind me using that format ChannelDelibird. It looks like a really good way to format a post where you talk about several different things but you want to avoid scaring everyone with a great wall of text.

one might say you were
._.
._.>o-o
o-o
channeling the delibird.

[Untrod Tripod]

[petroleumjelly]

Day One, Vote Count #9

LlamaFluff – 3 – prawneater, Untrod Tripod, TellTaleHeart
onion – 2 – Equinox, ChannelDelibird
Untrod Tripod – 2 – Onion Bubs, LlamaFluff
Derangement – 1 – onion
GuyInFreezer – 1 – Derangement

With

11 alive

it takes

6

to lynch and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is

March 5, 2015, at 6:45 AM PST

.

Not Voting – 2 – GuyInFreezer, Marquis

[Equinox]

I ended up spending all day catching up on things that weren't this game, so I'm going to have to catch up here tonight and tomorrow.

Scum-me would be freaked out that I was on a suspect list and I'd want to see what my dynamic was with CES. Town-me wouldn't care as much.

Re: your hypothesized reaction to the list of suspects, that's an interesting way to go about it, but I'm having a little trouble following. When you say that you would want to see the nature of your dynamic with Cogito Ergo Sum, what do you mean?

So yeah, you're gonna have to help me answer your question by pointing out who disagreed with the case. sorry.

I had myself and GuyInFreezer in mind when I asked you that question, more or less, but I was mainly interested in your thought process, of which you have provided plenty.

The same can be said about instantly dropping suspicion of Equinox for writing the Cogito list, especially if you're going to hold onto the list like a guide on where to find scum.

While I would agree with the idea that dropping suspicion of me for just posting that list is a bad one, I really liked that onion had thought about how I presented the list. That seems to me to be considering motivation.

This is too black-and-white imo.

How does this gel with what you said earlier about LlamaFluff playing to his biases and thus more likely to be town than not?

Where did you get this idea from? Why do you not feel the need to justify your votes when you make them? Votes are things that cause people to become out of the game, we need to make sure it's the right people who are becoming out of the game, we achieve this by observing, thinking and sharing our observations and thoughts, and you think it's perfectly fine townie behaviour to cast votes without stating your rationale for them? Since when does the town benefit from you hiding the reasoning behind your actions?

It's sometimes beneficial to not immediately explain votes or to state secondary reasons to get a read off the player being voted or anyone else reacting to it. Your reaction, for instance, is

really blindingly obvious

and the GIFs are hilarious.

It's also possible to read players who do not always explicitly state their reasoning (cf. Cogito Ergo Sum). If that player's "flow," so to speak, makes sense to you and you can see the thought process, then that's a positive indicator. If they consistently do not make sense, then that may be a negative indicator. The obvious disclaimer here is that there are different strokes, etc.

Anyway, that's enough theory for probably the entire game. Strangely enough, this has probably been the most productive in-game theory discussion reads-wise I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

Unvote

I don't like my onion vote anymore, but I need to re-read the thread some. That's probably going to wait until tomorrow, though.

[Marquis]

There's only a handful of you who have played with Cogito Ergo Sum, so let's start there:

ChannelDelibird
Equinox
GuyInFreezer
LlamaFluff
Untrod Tripod

Fortunately, there is already a wagon on LlamaFluff! Furthermore, given our history, he's probably rolled scum!

Vote: LlamaFluff

I hope I'm not buying into a scary secret trap but this is my first townread.

[Derangement]

What's happening?

LlamaFluff, ChannelDelibird and Prawneater haven't posted in two days.
GuyInFreezer pretty much prod-dodged with an unvote after promising to catch up...

Of these people, only llama hasn't been posting anywhere on the site.

@mod: how long can a player go without posting in thread before we can ask for prods?
If it's 48h, I'd like to order three, please.

[petroleumjelly]

@mod: how long can a player go without posting in thread before we can ask for prods?
If it's 48h, I'd like to order three, please.

You may ask for a prod at any time. I generally give a player three days before prodding unless a deadline is imminent, in which case waiting only two days may be appropriate. On the whole, activity in this game has been very healthy.

[LlamaFluff]

no llama, i want you to write a paragraph or two rephrasing what you think.

I disliked the reaction from GIF. My reaction was more of a "so what" one to myself when I saw that list. I could see scum interpreting it as more of an attack, and taking more of a "why" reaction as GIF did. That and actually bringing up the list without questioning its validity give the feeling that he is more concerned with being on the list than if the list has any merits or not.

UT is taking intentional and unnecessary risks that he should know better than to do as town. There is applying pressure and there is setting town up to take a major hit if someone is not paying attention in the first few pages. Then there was the asking to hammer (seemingly serious) when most of the game and wagon were RVS votes or had no content attached, which as he said himself "you can never be that sure about things D1" which while ironically not true in a night start game, goes against him trying to end the day. Something he still never responded about.

Little short on time right now, will be until late Sunday. Able to read but not give time I need to make decent sized posts.

[onion]

so what you are saying is that you placed your vote on GIF in 047 entirely because of him doubting Equinox's List in 018? If that's the case, why were you also ready to vote for Tripod. What suspicions of him did you hold at the time?

And then Tripod's antics happened and you voted for him in 100. Did you stop scumreading GIF? If so, what made you think he wasn't scum anymore? You explained plenty about why Tripod is scummy, but what about GIF? please don't avoid the question.

Also, you've kept that vote on Tripod ever since. Do you still think he's scum? Or are you just backing the counterwagon to yours? what are your current thoughts about GIF?

look post links! they aren't so bad once i got the hang of em. also yall need to go play Besiege. its in early beta but has lots of satisfying destruction to enjoy. i made a machine that can complete every level without modifications!

[prawneater]

Prodge

[LlamaFluff]

so what you are saying is that you placed your vote on GIF in 047 entirely because of him doubting Equinox's List in 018? If that's the case, why were you also ready to vote for Tripod. What suspicions of him did you hold at the time?

Yes that is why I voted GIF. Also I literally just said why I was calling UT scum last time I posted. That still is true.

And then Tripod's antics happened and you voted for him in 100. Did you stop scumreading GIF? If so, what made you think he wasn't scum anymore? You explained plenty about why Tripod is scummy, but what about GIF? please don't avoid the question.

GIF I still have a scumread on. Its not like I can really add much to that since he hasn't been posting content. Still have a hard time believing town only reacts in a "I played with him?" statement than anything else. Again I really just said why he is scum. If you don't accept that fine, but don't keep asking it again and again.

Also, you've kept that vote on Tripod ever since. Do you still think he's scum? Or are you just backing the counterwagon to yours? what are your current thoughts about GIF?

Yes. What counter wagon? I could move my vote to three other people and they would have the same number of votes as UT has now. You are using the same poor argument prawn is using where you set it up to no matter who I vote I am apparently voting in self-preservation because its not the only vote for the player. GIF is still a good scum bet.

look post links! they aren't so bad once i got the hang of em.

Quickest way to make me skim a post at least... seriously just quote it so we don't have to keep opening tabs to actually read what you are referencing.

[GuyInFreezer]

UNVOTE:

Any progress in catching up?

Spoiler: Quotestripping may hurt your eyes

I think if you were town, your reaction would be a "why are you coming to this conclusion" as opposed to "why am I in this list" or at least a mix of the two

Why ask for where the theory came from when it was stated in that very post? (It was obvious that Equi was saying that "people who are familiar with CES are most likely to kill him N0")

That's my reaction more than scum is dumb... its scum is more likely to be willfully ignorant/make suboptimal play that benefits scum if they think they can get away with it

So it's more of a gut?

can't help but notice that the main thrust of the argument we're hearing from Llama is "this play is suboptimal" not "you're about to lynch town"

It's not necessary to hear that when "you're about to lynch town" is already embedded in his posts.

======[]

Can we not?

Putting me at L-1 and immediately trying to pawn off any accidental hammer on others (and I am town) which shows him willfully playing suboptimal as he knows better than that
The fact that he tried to shift blame makes the assumption that I would flip town as only blame would occur if I flipped town
Him oversimplifying my saying he is playing suboptimal in order to not respond to the points I am making
Requesting hammer without a claim
Requesting a hammer with two votes on the wagon being RVS votes and one other not have posted any content
He is calling people scum for unvoting to wait to hear more content from aforementioned people

This is too black-and-white imo.

Searching for a replacement for Futan.

Real First Blood

Nooo. Onion, why?
Why would you do something like this?

?

though I guess I'd like confirmation from GIF that he thinks the analysis is valid.

Null. It could be the case that someone who knew him would kill CES but it is also plausible case that the others randomly killed him. If I saw more merit in that line I would've shown at least bit more interest than "Wow I played with CES before?"

========This is the point where I'm seeing walls and will stop until tomorrow=======

[GuyInFreezer]

PS AND HAY YOU GIF EXPLAIN YOUR UNVOTE RIGHT NOW YOUNG MAN.

I just remembered that my vote was still on TTH.

[GuyInFreezer]

Also GIF, you quoted me in your cursed quotestripping but i don't understand what you are asking me. 

Me neither. Because I never quoted you.

[GuyInFreezer]

I bet everyone missed my 194.

[GuyInFreezer]

So I'm townreading everyone else other than
- prawnstar
- Futan/Marquis
- Onion Bulb

I'll give some time to think which to vote between these.

[Derangement]

I bet everyone missed my 194.

I saw it, but thank you for pointing it out again, for those who might have missed it the first time.
I just expected a follow-up up on this:

========This is the point where I'm seeing walls and will stop until tomorrow=======

Did I misunderstand you when I thought you hadn't finished analysing the thread at the time, and would post your thoughts about the rest soon?

[Derangement]

@mod: how long can a player go without posting in thread before we can ask for prods?
If it's 48h, I'd like to order three, please.

You may ask for a prod at any time. I generally give a player three days before prodding unless a deadline is imminent, in which case waiting only two days may be appropriate. On the whole, activity in this game has been very healthy.

Okie dokie!
Thanks for the guidelines.

[onion]

Llama, the question was what suspicions did you have of him AT THE TIME. i know Tripod is scummy as fuck now, but mind you that you indicated your willingness to vote for Tripod in 047, BEFORE most of his anti-town shenanigans. What were your reasons at the time?

"i never quoted you"
oh hrm maybe not. its very difficult to understand what you are asking because your posts are slavered in fuzzy logic and question evading. this is the reason i want you to rephrase things for me because they really just didn't mean anything the first time. In 194[post] you quote Derangement's [post=141]141 which is asking me a question (sarcastically?) followed by a question mark. Is this you asking me to answer this question, or is this you asking Derangement why or what he means about this question? I fully explained my reasoning back in

[Untrod Tripod]

are you trying to do that thing where you repeat something over and over again until it becomes accepted fact

putting someone at L-1 on D1 REALLY is not that big of a deal, you are making a mountain out of a molehill

setting town up to take a major hit

self-flattery is a good way to set YOURSELF up to get fooled

[Untrod Tripod]

"you can never be that sure about things D1" which while ironically not true in a night start game

oh really

tell me about all those associated reads we have re: CES

I'll wait

[TellTaleHeart]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Marquis

[TellTaleHeart]

So I'm townreading everyone else other than
- prawnstar
- Futan/Marquis
- Onion Bulb

I'll give some time to think which to vote between these.

Same, except my three are: Marquis, CDB, and LlamaFluff.