Touhou UPick 3 - [Game Over]

[SB]

BBM doesn't have a girlfriend :V

I think.

[notscience]

there's a lot of vigs in this game. o.o I also have a spell card that allows me to vig someone under a certain condition (which I won't claim).

under normal circumstances, SB's vig claim would fuck with my read on him, but this makes it at least 4 vigs so far. I'm starting to consider the possibility of a scum vig in this game. :/

Which players have claimed vig?

I want to take this time to state that I'm not a vig.

I haven't!

[notscience]

But if you wanted to look at touhou 1+2 setups they might help!

[Shadoweh]

##Vote: ooba

If Sky P has a spellcard that doesn't sound like a vig but vigs people, it makes more sense that he thought it could be one. Fake vigs aren't unusual on SM, but you can't fake a card in this game so it's more believable imo. Anyways I don't think he's acting scummy, just wacky ie the element of Skypaladium I know and crave. I forgot we were scum together once, no wonder I can't remember your scum posts. As scum Sky is super guilty of IIoA and even if you don't like his setup spec and case on Serious Bananers everything he was bringing up was definitely going somewhere. Babby's First Mafia Post here.

I know I said Things about Serene Forest when I posted first but really I wasn't maintaining the strong feelings I had about them over the day while analyzing other people. Ooba should post more because I want more posts that I don't like, please tell me more about how scummy I am.

[Sakura Hana]

@SkyPal: You're terribly mistaken if you think i want to get out of your scum list, 3/4 points against me are just my playstyle and i'm not going to change it just to please scum, you on the other hand ignored that completely and you continue to keep arguing that it isn't, so if you want to continue down that road you can also continue to have my vote.

[SB]

Gonna spoiler this Skypost stuff because it's sort of long even though I tried not to respond for stuff just for the sake of it.

Spoiler:

SB if you ever decide at some point this day phase that I'm probably not scum, please let me know if I have to worry about your spell card or not.

If you're town, you'll be fine.

I initially listed Kagami/Relentless as scum because of somehow guessing that SB meant Serious Bananas and stating it was just a guess. If I saw SB I'd have guessed 'Super Ball' or something else. I think SB is too oblique to pluck Serious Bananas out of. So I figured Kagami is in a neighbourhood of some sort and doesn't want to admit it. And why SB would come up in conversation is anybody's guess, enough to warrant his full name coming out, is anybody's guess, but of course I'll say it's because they're scumbuddies ^_~

Relentless mentioned what my name was first and I'm pretty sure Kagami reacted to that. Relentless was another SM player who told me he was joining but didn't want me to reveal his identity and I dunno what he wants now so I won't, which is how he knew what my name was.

"Using statistics to justify a shitty argument is scummy as hell. Even if it wasn't, how is 2 games a big enough sample size for it?"
The sample size was 8 (now 10). In this game, many players are making the argument "Player x usually does y, this game they did z, so therefore they are alignment m". You yourself did it when you initially cleared Serene Forest, and Serene Forest did it when they hopped off of your vote.
I actually think meta, and the whole "player x always does y" argument is weak. That is why I first investigated if I agreed with your vote on Pieguy, and then went backwards to evaluate other points in what you had said and done. If I only had the meta argument, I wouldn't have voted.

Statistics in this context are a means of applying concrete data behind a meta argument. It's no different. So yes, I agree, using meta alone as the basis for a vote is a scum move. However, I also used analysis on your vote, and went further than just meta, and attempted to provide solid data behind my reasoning.

The problem is that mafia isn't a game of logic, it's a social game. You can't rely on statistics to win you games because if you do scum will find ways to game them and incriminate townies if they really want to. I get that you had other parts to your case (even if they kind of sucked) but when you're writing massive walls about how the stats add up (especially when they're wrong) and refusing to budge because of it it looks really bad.

That's the reason I asked you to link games to counter my point, because

I wanted to know if you were scum

and I'm not satisfied with parking a vote on you and walking away. If you look at my most recent game, Draft Mafia, that you hosted, you can see I apply pressure to Raikaria early in the game, don't vote, make an early case and vote Mitsuki, continue to apply pressure, suddenly unvote when Mitsuki was at L-1, pick up Bard for his vote switching, and then start the next day phase best friends with these two. I was vanilla town. There is a lot more in common with my play in that game than in AUS mafia. You were moderating it, you cannot failed to have noticed this.

It's 1am and my internet is trying to commit sudoku so I'm not gonna read it now, but I'll look later I guess.

"3 of my latest 6 games on MotK have been scumgames, including the most recent one. I already pointed this out to you, but instead of looking into it you ignored me and said that I was lying scum. I also cited a game that I made a bus joke as town (on SF) in this game so this is clearly wrong."

I actually looked in to it in great detail, and asked you to link the games that you had vaguely referred to. "3 of my latest 6 games" - you didn't play every game. Serene asked you to link a town game where you made a bus joke. I asked you to link a town game where you made a bus joke on another player. It doesn't exist.
I looked in to it in great detail or otherwise I would not have made the point because it would have easily been disproven.

The only reason it wasn't easy was because I didn't feel like collecting all the links after telling you exactly what my recent scumgames were but whatever.

http://mafia.getonpictochat.com/index.php?board=5.0 scum
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/inde ... 452.0.html town
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/inde ... 271.0.html town
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/inde ... 179.0.html town
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/inde ... 111.0.html scum
http://mafia.getonpictochat.com/index.php?board=4.0 scum

I told Serenes that I made a bus in CYOU'RE. The only reason he didn't accept it was because it was an SF game.

"Cool. Which is it? You don't get to say stuff like that when like Dan pointed out you've only really brought up points on me and Serenes."

I simply don't have the time to write significant cases on all players, although if I had that time I would certainly do it. I just pursue the one or two that are most likely. In any case, pushing forward multiple scum suspects increases the likelihood that I'm wrong and the un-accounted for scums will push the lynch on to that player.

I'd normally be fine with this, but it comes across as weird after you said that rushing around was no excuse for my lack of clarity in some posts. Why is it fine for you but not for me?

lmao

I posit that you are purely voting for me and spellcarding me purely because I made a case and am voting you. I'm sure if I voted elsewhere, you're hostility would go away.

Yes and no? Your vote on me is the reason but it isn't because it's on me. I could easily have applied those reasons and voted you were I any other playerslot in the game, I'm just naturally going to pay more attention to it because half the game don't actually read our posts.

UNVOTE: Sky_Paladin

Despite what I've said, I'm kind of getting cold feet on this because I think his explanation for why he thought he was vigged sort of makes sense and so I think that his reaction looks better, and the explanations for his reads aren't /great/ but they're there and you can tell that there's some kind of thought process there. What he crumbed also roughly matches up with what I got from my spellcard. I can also sort of see how his ridiculous logic makes sense coming from town who isn't really differentiating bad play from scum play very well considering he has half the game as scum.

I'll figure out where to go from here in the morning because I don't feel like rereading right now will be particularly successful.

Shadoweh, why does ooba interest you over other players with limited content like Gaiden?

[Sakura Hana]

Oh right, one of the points against me was that my ability was more harmful to town, so that leaves 2/4 points being my playstyle 1/4 points because he doesn't like my passive, and 1/4 points that is a lie.

[Sakura Hana]

Why the F is anyone townreading SkyPal after all the crap he's pulling >_>

[FakeGod]

@FG: Is is ok to ask if people got their first pick (without saying what their picks were)?

Yeah, that's fine.

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh, why does ooba interest you over other players with limited content like Gaiden?

Because if there are really three possible vigs and one of them doesn't kill I Have No Content Gaiden I will literally cry.

[notscience]

Why the F is anyone townreading SkyPal after all the crap he's pulling >_>

SHAME

SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME

[Sakura Hana]

Why the F is anyone townreading SkyPal after all the crap he's pulling >_>

SHAME

SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME

You don't tell me that, you know i hate it when people attack my playstyle.
And for the sake of not having a repeat of Hope+1 i'm just gonna go and do my nightly stuff and check this thread back in probably 3-5 hours or so.

[Kagami]

I agree that sky-pally's explanation is reasonable.

I hadn't mentioned it initially, but it had also struck me as odd that his formatting and verbiage was fairly well-constructed for someone who believed he had little time to get reads out; little things like deleting the numbers from the C&P of the playerlist, adding italics, and just generally solid prose. Nevertheless, the time-stamps don't lie.


On a separate note, I'd like everyone to claim if they got their first pick. I see absolutely no harm in doing so, while there is potentially some value in it.

I got my first pick.

[notscience]

Why the F is anyone townreading SkyPal after all the crap he's pulling >_>

SHAME

SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME

You don't tell me that, you know i hate it when people attack my playstyle.
And for the sake of not having a repeat of Hope+1 i'm just gonna go and do my nightly stuff and check this thread back in probably 3-5 hours or so.

I am just voicing my disapproval of the wagon in a teasing manner shhhhhhhhhhhh

I think his one readslist is really weird to come from scum if we have scum in our group which is why I am not voting him

[notscience]

I am being intentionally harmless and trying not to stir the pot sans teasing you both because I am scum and trying to hide duh

[Katsuki]

oh why didn't you just say so earlier?

vote: spookyspanish

[notscience]

Because I was hoping to make it to at least N1 so I can obliterate pieguy/mala/sakura before they caught on

[Katsuki]

the best way for that is to powerlurk obv

im kinda failing at that right now

[notscience]

Nah but then they'd pressurevote me to make me come out and when I ignored it they'd know

[Malakittens]

Will be here Wednesday

[Kilgamayan]

Kilga: is there any particular reason you are the first vote on all wagons you are a part of?

I'm a scumhunting God and everyone knows it so they all just sheep to my ideas instead of :effort:ing other cases 8)

It's just a coincidence, sprinkled with other people voting their votes elsewhere in the case of the Sky Paladin and Sakura votes. There's no role-mechanical reason for it, if that's what you're getting at.

---

Sky Paladin: I didn't think I had to explicitly say that your previous attempts to get me off your case, which consisted of trying to make a comparison without actually being aware of who was voting for who and calling me a Forest-defender and telling me my votes are awful when one of my votes was for the same Forest who you had been voting for yourself up until that point and still thought was bad, were pathetic to the point of scummy, but I guess if you really need me to, there you go, that's what they were. Since you said I've lied about you, feel free to argue how Muffin's vote was actually on Forest (as you claimed) and not pieguy (like I claimed), or how I wasn't actually voting for Forest when you accused me of being a Forest-defender.

My initial vote for you was as strong/weak as any vote that early into Day 1 ever is, sure. Your poor-at-best attempts to defend yourself from it are what's kept it on you this entire time, because they've made me feel worse about you instead of better. Your vote on me feels strongly of an OMGUS because of how unimpressive/unsubstantiated it is. Doubly so when I actually conceded a point against myself to Ankamius and you didn't even seem to notice; I'd think you'd at least mention that in passing if you really wanted to see Scum Kilga dead.

RE: vig death throes - Depending on one's personal imagined death-based time constraints, I would expect a townie thinking they're about to die would at least add various levels of emphasis to their reads lists, if not outright provide reasons for the stronger reads (in either direction). A list of reads with no context is completely useless - if a townie does that and then dies, the rest of the game can only look at it can "yep, that sure is what they believed!" The rest of town is given little reason to actually look into those reads. Sure, one could argue that the rest of town could go back through the dead townie's posts and look through them for reasoning, but if your play is scummy to the point of getting vigged on D1, then odds are you weren't making good points before you died.

---

Since I didn't mention it before, I am ambivalent on Drezi's claim, particularly given there's not a lot to it.

I'm not saying anything about which pick of mine I got because (a) there is a handy-dandy waifu list of mine in a not-hard-to-internet-detective location that may or may not be useful for at least narrowing my character down, and (b) I sent in a list that was like fifteen waifus long and I don't want to dwell on all the waifus I didn't get.

[thdgkdms]

Lily wants to say that Lily likes Kilgamayan's latest post and that Lily would be willing to sheep it!

[Sky_Paladin]

In response to Kilga:

I'm not seeing "SB is being reckless" anywhere in SF's (faulty) logic for their original SB vote, so I can't agree with your proposed contradiction

Serene Forest originally voted SB in 30 because:

His first thought in the game revolves around bussing which is pretty indicative of a scum mindset, in his home forum it might have been the usual joke regardless of alignment but he's

less likely to joke about his hardbussing meta as town

in a community that doesn't really recognize that meta yet, and he isn't that involved with.

Emphasis mine for the comparison in just a moment.

I then started picking at Serene Forest for this not so much because of flagging SB for his bus joke but because of his apparently random jump on to Shadoweh, which was not (and will now never be) satisfactorily explained, as indicated in my 66.

Serene Forest responded to some general points but not specifically me in 67.

I don't think SB would reply as absentmindedly as he did if he were scum

So

the contradiction that I picked up

which you are asking for, was where Serene Forest originally voted SB for being unlikely to joke about his hardbussing meta, and then later justified their unvote by saying "I don't think SB would reply as absentmindedly as he did if he were scum."

I continued to press Serene Forest for a clear answer in 82, and I ultimately voted Serene Forest when they posted again and failed to acknowledge any of my questions in any meaningful way.

My vote on Serene Forest, as stated, was:

I want to be clear on this.

Your initial vote on SB was because he was being reckless.
And now you think he is town because scum!SB would not be so reckless.

It appears you are getting your story mixed up. There doesn't appear to be a town motivation for this. I want to see your vote motivation for Shadoweh, and 'Wanting to vote for a lurker' won't cut it this early in the phase. It looks like a bandwagon hop so until you provide something tangible, that's what I'll assume it is.

1

- My case was never about whether SB was or was not reckless, it was always that Serene Forest apparently changed their story retroactively in response to pressure. It was disingenuous for you to push this as if it was my point as a justification for your vote.

"Post #82 in particular is amusing because it expresses distaste with thgkdms for getting a point across "in a fairly convoluted fashion" when #82 itself doesn't really get any meaningful point across at all."

Post 82 critically asks Serene Forest to back up their negative utility claim (a request that was ignored, by the way), and pushes Serene Forest to defend their Shadoweh jump (a request that was also ignored until after I had voted). There was also a request for SB to clarify his case against me. The addendum to Thgdkms was just icing on the cake. This post was not driving a case, but it was clearly intended to advance game state.

2

Your statement seems to be a quite serious misrepresentation whereby you assert "no meaningful content" when there is in fact "meaningful content".

In short, your initial vote was poor and you haven't satisfactorily upgraded it or taken in to account in any meaningful way, any of the future events that have happened from it.

Re: zMuffin and I voting for Serene Forest when zMuffin was not actually voting Serene Forest -

OK I'm generally scratching my head how I got this wrong. I thought zMuffin was voting for Serene Forest. I wrote a lot of things and read a lot of stuff, sometimes things get mixed up. Such perils do befall the humble data entry operator.

Re: Voting for Serene Forest = Defending Serene Forest -

WHY you vote is in most cases more important than WHO you voted. That's what I wrote when I was casing SB and it didn't change from then. Especially in a large game like this. And even more so when said player has apparently a million votes and spends most of them poorly. Your initial vote for Serene Forest was because he questioned SB on his use of meta. When I questioned Serene Forest for the same thing and ultimately voted him because of the failure to answer, you voted me for it.
It doesn't make sense for you to criticise me for doing what was essentially the same thing. That's why I said I hate that you were defending Serene Forest. In hindsight, after reviewing your iso, I feel that if you were serious about evaluating Serene Forest, you would have asked questions, rather than giving thumbs up to some players who were pressuring Serene Forest (Pieguy) and thumbs down to others (me). It feels inconsistent.


If you want this to be the basis of your vote along side that I accused you of defending Serene Forest while voting them, I can't argue that it didn't happen. But I don't see how you can align that with scum intent, so please do clarify.

Your vote on me feels strongly of an OMGUS because of how unimpressive/unsubstantiated it is.

I will concede that

this may be so

. My vote was rushed because hey, ten minutes before work, and I was late for work anyway.
I feel that your scumminess is largely in your dealings with me and I

can

see why you might think I'm not dissuading you because I have not directly engaged you until now. I just completed an ISO which you can review below and there is no slam dunk Kilga-is-scum. I just feel that you're lying and that if you were serious about scum-Sky you would have engaged me rather than just sniped at me.

A list of reads with no context is completely useless

I agree. I simply had no time. I had made an initial attempt to prioritise players but found that there were too many to line up so I just went with what was faster.

That said, I now have put a couple sentences behind each of my reads, and I think that's something.

***

I feel strongly that your vote on me is based on basically nothing and you're clinging on to it because there's no reason not to but that begs the question of what motivation does the scum team have to want to lynch me specifically, and would they show their hand like this. I don't think it's likely.

Until now I had only skimmed your posts and just got a general feeling of 'something is not right' but having read them in depth I can at least see where you are coming from, and I see you have actually invested some effort in checking up other players. I guess I want to see your response as well. But this post was mostly "Why your case is bad" and not "Why Kilga is scum" which suggests to me that I'm on the wrong track here.

There's some odd things that I picked up in your ISO and I guess I want to see your response/other people's thoughts. You've voted for a lot of people but it doesn't seem like you're really interacting with them so much as passing judgement. So I'll leave my vote up for now and reflect on it overnight.

ISO on Kilga behind spoiler.

Spoiler:

Your initial vote on Malakittens I can't argue against and I can see why you think Relentless is awful (although I take a better opinion of his post because there seems to be a genuine intent to make things happen). Your vote for Pie seems weird because you saw me questioning Serene Forest for their vote on Shadoweh, but you didn't seem to care that I had done this when voting me. I question the sincerity.

391

Unvote on Malakittens -
Not liking this vote anymore. I've seen too many townies over the years adamantly march to the beat of their own drum in the fashion she's doing today for me to honestly go "must be scum!". I will never like playstyles that are inherently unhelpful to the public on Day 1 but that's for my teeth to grind over and nothing more.

I don't understand the point of you voting Malakittens since she hadn't presented content and then unvoting her when she still hadn't presented content. We learned later on in the day phase when Gaiden just

posted

directly questioning Malakittens she will do something (although apparently that was to empty unvote, which was awful). I think this is a really insincere reason for unvoting somebody who wasn't in any danger.
The best I can fathom from this is that you are deciding that bad play != scum play and that you've seen early enough on day 1 that it's just bad play. Malakittens is a mod and has played many games here. Is 'bad play' to be expected?

I can abide by your unvote of Relentless, specifically as I did not support it in the first place.

The posts you linked in your unvote of Pieguy because 'real vote' and 'content' IMO aren't significant. "I support Serene's push on SB." "Walk me through why you think Serene is scum." You also haven't revisted Pie in any significant way, which is odd because Pie has been all over the shop and I would expect you to pay more attention to your supposed scum reads are generally doing.

I agree with your vote on Drezi because I drew the same conclusion from the Drezi/Muffin exchange. I also agree with your vote on GiF, but I question why other players who have apparently no scum suspects (Malakittens, off the top of my head) get a free pass.

I agree with your vote on Sakura Hana.

Re: Your question to Thdgkms about Serene Forest - you got a response from Thdgkms in 399 but you didn't acknowledge or appear to do anything with it.

I stated earlier (and later!) that you haven't updated your case on me or checked it against reality for some time, here's your stance in this post:

As I pointed out in my vote for SkyPal, Forest's initial vote for SB had nothing to do with recklessness, and it basically has no other justification.

I generally agree with everything in your 427.

I'm going to skip the mass vote/unvote because I assume it was just proving a point that yes you can mass vote, good job. And I'm done. What a waste of my time.

[pieguyn]

On a separate note, I'd like everyone to claim if they got their first pick. I see absolutely no harm in doing so, while there is potentially some value in it.

<- got my first pick

So like, That kilga point in Pieguyn's wall was dubious, but the rest checked out.

clarificaton: is this you saying you agree with the rest of what I'm saying, or that it's not suspicious?

[zMuffinMan]

it'd be just repeating ourselves all over if I started replying there

not really, since all your points are essentially nonsensical (as i pointed out in the response).

the arguments you're making either come from misinterpretations (i'm still deciding whether i think this was deliberate or not) or from false parallels to a scum game of mine (and, even if you don't address the misinterpretations, i would still like to know what exactly the point of bringing up the scum game was and how exactly you think my play here is like that - the meta point aside, since it looks like you're just suggesting me discussing meta makes me scum because i've done it as scum...)

I agreed with the point that the amount of posts you spent trying to deconstruct a single townread that was unlikely to influence the game was strange

i see... so what do you do when someone is calling your scum read town? it seems counter-intuitive not to do this

little things like deleting the numbers from the C&P of the playerlist

note: if you just drag your cursor along the list and copy it, it doesn't add numbers

not that this is overly important


also i'm pretty sure i have an idea of exactly what drezi is claiming, and i have mixed opinions about how to interpret the way he claimed it and the way he's being vague about it. could come from town trying to keep scum guessing, or it could come from scum trying to sound more important than he actually is

either way, if we are keeping him alive today, it shouldn't be because of what he's claimed

i could see myself moving to ooba today if drezi doesn't happen

i would like it if someone were to vig rylai tonight, or at least strongly consider it before deciding, "nah, i do what i want" and shooting a strong town role. thanks in advance