Open 589: Duck Duck Goose (Game Over: Somebody Won)

[Storyteller]

Vote Count 1.03

With 12 alive it's 7 votes to Lynch.

Voting for:

Netherspite (0):
davesaz (1): vettrock
talah (0):
Honey bee (0):
NJAC (0):
dodgy56 (1): oddmusic
vettrock (0):
Kaboose (0):
oddmusic (1): davesaz
ploben (0):

ChriVi (5): Talah, Netherspite, Kaboose, Taly, dodgy56

Taly (3): Honey bee, NJAC, ChriVi

If deadline is reached without any changes to the votes,

ChriVi

would be lynched.

Not voting (1): ploben

Deadline is March 22st, 0600 UTC or in (expired on 2015-03-22 06:00:00)

[Netherspite]

@Taly

In fact I was answering your questions rather than asking my own

[oddmusic]

UNVOTE:

Dodgy's (inordinately large) series of posts looked pretty town to me. Still don't like the ChriVi wagon. Feels more (very easily) pissed off town than scum. Going to do some ISO's in a sec.

[oddmusic]

Okay, so maybe no ISOs yet. They'll come, after a bit more posting has taken place.

Oh, more importantly:

Why is my vote 'bad'? It's better than yours. Mine is actually because I think someone is scummily jumping on a D1 easy-wagon to free-lynch-ville, whereas your vote is "Uh, uh, their vote is bad and um, their response is bad! Yeah! I'm gonna jump on the wagon!"

I

honestly

think this is actually a newbie-fuckup trying to fit in onto the biggest wagon whether than necessarily a scum fuckup

I played with dodgy one game before (He was town was killed N1, but he had played mafia before on other sites, I don't think he is really much of a newbie other than being relatively new to this site.

I'm not offended myself, but in the interest of a civil discourse, I'll provide a website for ChriVi:
http://www.r-word.org/

Do you think dodgy is scum then? For that matter, @ChriVi, do

you

think dodgy is scum. You seem to have changed your mind on that point.

[Honey bee]

Someone yell at me if I don't look at this game by the end of today.

[Kaboose]

UNVOTE:

Dodgy's (inordinately large) series of posts looked pretty town to me. Still don't like the ChriVi wagon.

Feels more (very easily) pissed off town than scum.

Going to do some ISO's in a sec.

This borderlines WIFOM to me.

[oddmusic]

@ Kaboose: Fair enough. I generally don't like tone arguments. I just honestly don't see what ChriVi has done that is actually scummy.

[Kaboose]

I think there needs to be a revolution among Mafia games that D1 becomes less scum hunting based on absolutely nothing(unless a game mechanic changes that of course) and evolves to be more of removing dead weight in hopes of prolonging those the town deem most helpful moving forward.

[Netherspite]

@Kaboose

Did you just suggest to policy lynch lurkers and useless players in vague wording?

[ploben]

I think there needs to be a revolution among Mafia games that D1 becomes less scum hunting based on absolutely nothing(unless a game mechanic changes that of course) and evolves to be more of removing dead weight in hopes of prolonging those the town deem most helpful moving forward.

If you've ever played a live game this is exactly what happens. There's usually so many people that town can afford a mislynch of dead weight and let the night actions speak for D2+ analysis.

[Kaboose]

@Kaboose

Did you just suggest to policy lynch lurkers and useless players in vague wording?

By all means useless players should definitely be lynched. Especially while we have time. Lurkers can lurk and still be valuable. I don't need people making 100 posts a day, but if you're going to post once a day it better be good and useful to me.

But really this is only my feelings on D1. Because if I'm alive D2 I'll have things to work with and pieces of a puzzle.

Right now the town know there's a puzzle to put together, but there are absolutely no pieces except for our own role PMs. Sadly I can't use my role PM to convince myself of who is town and who is mafia. And if you believe anyone who says they can do that, then I have some beach front property for sale in Idaho you might be interested in.

[vettrock]

I think there needs to be a revolution among Mafia games that D1 becomes less scum hunting based on absolutely nothing(unless a game mechanic changes that of course) and evolves to be more of removing dead weight in hopes of prolonging those the town deem most helpful moving forward.

While I agree with the sentiment of this since the D1 lynch is almost always garbage based on some nuance of something that someone posted, or the way the wind happens to blow, the problem with just lynching the useless/lurkers is it provides very little information for D2. D2 you have the wagon and the voting from the day before, and the NK. If you just policy lynch, you are left with only the NK.

[oddmusic]

I think there needs to be a revolution among Mafia games that D1 becomes less scum hunting based on absolutely nothing(unless a game mechanic changes that of course) and evolves to be more of removing dead weight in hopes of prolonging those the town deem most helpful moving forward.

I don't want to devolve too much into a theory discussion, but I will say this. I think we're best off scumhunting now, and if there's nothing better, then yes a policy lynch might be acceptable and the end of toDay. Certainly better than a no-lynch.

[Taly]

I'll start with taly, which it looks like he's going to make it tough to quote with his wall posts, but that should leave us with a lot of info later in the game as to what his intentions are and we need to go back and look at early posts for comparison. As a new player the analysis of RVS is interesting and my gut says to read taly townie for that. But, once again, he's made it clear he's seen and analyzed "a lot" of mafia so a player that's done that has a pretty good head start on what to do and what not to do as both alignments. Execution is a different story, once you find yourself in the middle of your first game. With that said, it seems like a big mistake to admit your full experience with mafia and then try not to be sincere. I feel you're only setting yourself up to get busted as scum. Town lean on taly for me.

As far as what I've analyzed, and my experience in and out of the game, I've already elaborated on in my posts: 49 and 60. (I don't know how to link them....) I don't find a need to continue speaking about it unless someone has a question directed at that specifically.

Although, I do understand your concerns, and I'm beginning to realize your insights, but I don't know what you mean by "and then try not to be sincere," I haven't said anything so far that was a lie. Even though there's little I can say to back up this previous statement, all I can say is that it is true, and I assure you it is.

NJAC post sequence is a red flag for me.
34 - RVS vote outside of RVS
38 - Deflection to discuss taly as town or not
39 - "I don't want to lynch [taly], at least not until I get something from you which I consider scummy from your part (which I haven't yet, btw)." OK, then why not take your vote off taly, which you're claiming is RVS but probably isn't, and move along? That statement doesn't sit right with me, almost like you're waiting for taly to slip up and you won't leave until he does. Scum hunting? Maybe. Then the deflection to focus on me and Kaboose in last sentence.
45 - I'm translating this as to NJAC thinks RVS is not over yet, "some players", yet is treating his vote as RVS.

It sits weird with me and I'm not a big fan of it at the moment.

You know, this opened my eyes to something.

Why do I

still

have 2 "RVS" votes against me?

I don't know if Honey Bee and/or NJAC are just lurking, but I'm not understanding this, especially when most reads that have been put onto me so far are either town, or leaning town. I know NJAC and Honey Bee could just be unavailable because they have lives, but what sense is this? This makes me wonder if my original vote out of putting RVS pressure on someone and having gut feelings about it had any clarification in it.

>>>

Netherspite

- Ohhh.... Well I guess we both justified ourselves?

UNVOTE:

Still don't like the ChriVi wagon. Feels more (very easily) pissed off town than scum. Going to do some ISO's in a sec.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm realizing that ChriVi could very well be town. What I said to problens quote about NJAC's actions(above.) It makes me question if people are corresponding with others. Even though ChriVi's hostility has

offended

me, and they have created nearly useless posts other than insulting jabs. I'm not going to completely gun for the idea ChriVi is scum for being with their not-very-strategic approach. I also won't rule anyone else out from being scum, and even though quite a few of my questions have been answered, I don't think I know enough quite yet, and I think I'll start referencing earlier posts from people more often.

Since I see that a lot of wagons on D1 don't make the final lynch, and if they do, it is usually a townie, I think this move might just keep the game in a helpful direction for the town.

UNVOTE: ChriVi This doesn't mean you're off my radar, I would just want to see a constructional post from you about

NOT JUST

your reasoning against me, but also your reads on others here. This is more like a question, what is your opinion on everyone here?

[davesaz]

Code: Select all

[post]138[/post]

Is how you link to a post.

[Storyteller]

Code: Select all

[post]138[/post]

Is how you link to a post.

Like so...

Code: Select all

[post=139]139[/post] or [post=#6645126]139[/post]

Where 6645126 is the post id number. You can get that when you click on someone's post number and see the number in the url. The latter works across threads.

[ploben]

Although, I do understand your concerns, and I'm beginning to realize your insights, but I don't know what you mean by "and then try not to be sincere," I haven't said anything so far that was a lie. Even though there's little I can say to back up this previous statement, all I can say is that it is true, and I assure you it is.

What I meant by that sentence was as a player, like yourself, with pretty good "observational" knowledge of the game, it would not behoove you to divulge your experience and knowledge and then follow that up with game play which reflects an immature understanding of the game. Simple put, someone would say "I know a lot about this game" and then play the actual game like they didn't know what they were doing. It would not look good and probably come of as manipulative or somewhat anti-town.

I'm not at all saying that's what you're doing. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I think you've approached this game with eyes wide open and show a motivation to analyze the game and make us aware of what you come up with. I think there is some refining of your game that needs to take place through "being in the trenches" but that will come with time and actual game play. That's not to say we all can't learn (myself definitely included), no matter how long someone has been playing.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm realizing that ChriVi could very well be town. What I said to [ploben's] quote about NJAC's actions(above.) It makes me question if people are corresponding with others.

I'm not sure what you mean by "if people are corresponding with other". Can you explain this?

[Taly]

Although, I do understand your concerns, and I'm beginning to realize your insights, but I don't know what you mean by "and then try not to be sincere," I haven't said anything so far that was a lie. Even though there's little I can say to back up this previous statement, all I can say is that it is true, and I assure you it is.

What I meant by that sentence was as a player, like yourself, with pretty good "observational" knowledge of the game, it would not behoove you to divulge your experience and knowledge and then follow that up with game play which reflects an immature understanding of the game. Simple put, someone would say "I know a lot about this game" and then play the actual game like they didn't know what they were doing. It would not look good and probably come of as manipulative or somewhat anti-town.

I'm not at all saying that's what you're doing. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I think you've approached this game with eyes wide open and show a motivation to analyze the game and make us aware of what you come up with. I think there is some refining of your game that needs to take place through "being in the trenches" but that will come with time and actual game play. That's not to say we all can't learn (myself definitely included), no matter how long someone has been playing.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm realizing that ChriVi could very well be town. What I said to [ploben's] quote about NJAC's actions(above.) It makes me question if people are corresponding with others.

I'm not sure what you mean by "if people are corresponding with other". Can you explain this?

Ah, I see, thanks for verifying what you were meaning.

--- What I meant by "if people are corresponding with others," I personally don't know if Mafia can speak to each other in another link during the day, and even without that idea, people during the day can manipulate how people see others through their own analysis on them. (Like, getting a wagon, or making someone dislike someone else, etc.)

I just withdrew from voting against ChriVi because I'm not very satisfied with the answers I have got from them, and what I've indirectly gathered from some people here. I also don't know much about NJAC, and Honey Bee, and your post kind of alerted me of that. So I unvoted and made it clear that I think there is more implications in what people are speaking about than what has been directly said. (Meaning, people could be using specific strategies to preserve themselves from being thought of as suspect so scum.)

So right now, I'm just not throwing any allegations at people, and I want actual concise helpful thoughts from ChriVi, and even NJAC, Honey Bee, and anyone who hasn't really brought up much of an analysis or idea yet.

[Honey bee]

ok I'm half asleep and this game is getting really wally so I'm just going to blab a bit where my head is at and then get back here when I've digested this game more.

Chirivi wagon is not my to my taste. 52 is just fluff but it's really blunt and honest reaction. Meta'd them, their play doesn't seem ooc for their town or scum game. I don't see their self meta case but ok. Taly vote is... nonsense. There's plenty worse on that wagon and taly is just going through ridiculous lengths to thinking about this game to be a part of an act.
-- Nethersprite is pinging me the most, the application of his questions towards other players while being content to threaten his vote rather than discover their alignment sucks. Also many of those questions feel like busy work to me.
--I think davesaz and vettrock were pinging me but it may have been just gut so someone remind me later to flesh these two reads out.
--everyone else I haven't looked hard enough to have a distinct feeling about.

also VOTE: nethersprite for now. I left my vote on you taly because you really haven't been in any danger the times I briefly checked the thread and I've only just now found someone I'm comfortable serious voting.

[talah]

Do you have an opinion on what has happened so far?

I've just read back up to this point although I've been skimming along so my opinion's probably changed. I suppose at that point my opinion was that I'd just go ahead and follow up on my own stuff, as the conversation seemed a bit convoluted and not particularly insightful. Your opinion may vary. On the readback I did like that oddmusic gave you a couple of red flags in the face of the Taly-town love-in that had been going on, though. I have no reason to town read you (up to this point as I say - I guess we'll see though...).

This wally post also sounds pretty similar to the posts I made in my first game.
I'm stacking you into my townpile for now.
Also, sharing the opinion does not mean it should be full reads list, but I appreciate your efforts to write it.
Besides sharing your opinion, it's usually a good idea to ask some questions to get the information you want. Waiting passively for the scumslips most likely won't net you any scum caught unless you're lucky.

Oh good. I liked your other post where you talked about bolding names making them easier to read as well. You're now my official translator for Taly and I am sheeping your read on him and any will take into account any derivative information. This involves no additional work on your part.

talah, don't ask obvious questions you have the answers to. Useless. Use your time scumhunting, not asking me why I made an obvious RVS vote please.

I have no idea why you voted Kaboose. What, did you use random.org? In the face of no content it's a pretty legitimate quesiton, especially if you're sitting around bitching about RVS.

p-edit @ Kaboose: Meta me, please.

I am A+ foot in mouth aggressive town.

Scum-me is quieter than town-me.
If you think that's scum worthy, you need to go play a lot more newbie games please.

Bold is my emphasis. I have personal experience with this and like to hope I've outgrown it.
If you demonstrate this behaviour and I happen to have no scum reads, you'll be my default vote. Just sayin'.

im liking taly for town at this point

What? Why? You can't just quote a wall and say that and expect it to be credible.

im liking nether for town as well at this point.

Ugh.. 27 posts in a row later and you just did the same thing. Can you give the tiniest hint of what in both of these two posts makes you read each as town please? Even a sentence on each will be fantastic.

^ Can I lynch you now, scum?

Same deal - this comment isn't helpful. A sentence on why Taly's scum, please.

im liking taly for town at this point

im liking nether for town as well at this point.

Mind elaborating on why exactly do you like us for town?

LOL! Faithful translator, you are my first actual townread. There's no way I read through that and reach exactly the same conclusion as scum.

Someone yell at me if I don't look at this game by the end of today.

HELLO HONEY BEE. There, that should do. :D
Nice to be playing with you again.

While I agree with the sentiment of this since the D1 lynch is almost always garbage based on some nuance of something that someone posted, or the way the wind happens to blow, the problem with just lynching the useless/lurkers is it provides very little information for D2. D2 you have the wagon and the voting from the day before, and the NK. If you just policy lynch, you are left with only the NK.

I think it's a really hard thing to get the correct balance on. Day 1 lynch needs to be the most likely scum based on consensus, and the lynch that will hurt town the *absolute least* in the case that it's wrong. A lot of folks don't like to (or haven't liked to, in my previous experience) discuss this frankly and openly because it becomes a headstrong thing about "Well if you think they could be town, why would you lynch them?".
It's really grey, especially Day 1. But I think by and large information lynches are overrated, because they can be pushed convincingly by scum.

-- Nethersprite is pinging me the most, the application of his questions towards other players while being content to threaten his vote rather than discover their alignment sucks. Also many of those questions feel like busy work to me.

This is interesting and the opposite of what I've got at the moment. Maybe we can talk about this over the next couple of days? He seems pretty genuine to me but there's not a huge amount of analysis or theory in that.

---

Apologies

for the mega-wall post, but I took yesterday off and I'm commited to not OCDing on MS since returning. Will be around for an hour or so tonight and will be posting more regularly in general.

@Taly - Pretend I'm Tony Danza and I'll happily interact more directly with you :)

[Netherspite]

@Taly

I notice that you follow everyone's advices too easily.
However, I think it can be explained by your lack of real playing experience.
As an advice: don't be afraid of having your own opinion on things. If you're sure in something - don't backpedal if someone told you that your opinion is bad/strange. People can give you advices coming from both town (to help you with learning the game) and scum (to manipulate you) mindset.

@Honey bee

Please do me a favor and go through

vettrock

and

davesaz

posts and then give some read on them not based on your gut.
I'm curious.

@talah

What do you think on

oddmusic

?

[talah]

@talah

What do you think on

oddmusic

?

Actually the overreaction comment was interesting as I thought it was a push which was fine and more about getting out of RVS than an actual overreaction.

The push against Taly was against the grain and I liked it, but I think that can come from a scum motivation as well - wanting to stand out and have unique opinions.

Keeping track of who's doing what in RVS is pointless.

He's posted quite a bit pretty early on and there's not a huge amount of incentive for scum to do that unless they're pretty confident about playing scum...
Seems to want to interact...

Semi-agree with him on dodgy's *series* but he doesn't care about the bookstop posts. Don't agree with him on ChriVi.

Overall would like to see him get to some more one-to-one interactions with some more pointed questions. Slight town tickle perhaps?

[talah]

--- What I meant by "if people are corresponding with others," I personally don't know if Mafia can speak to each other in another link during the day, and even without that idea, people during the day can manipulate how people see others through their own analysis on them. (Like, getting a wagon, or making someone dislike someone else, etc.)

Here's somthing linked off Storyteller's first post and which I didn't actually realise until just now:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... uck,_Goose!

Scum *do* have daytalk.

[NJAC]

Busy days. Posting tonight.

[Netherspite]

--- What I meant by "if people are corresponding with others," I personally don't know if Mafia can speak to each other in another link during the day, and even without that idea, people during the day can manipulate how people see others through their own analysis on them. (Like, getting a wagon, or making someone dislike someone else, etc.)

Here's somthing linked off Storyteller's first post and which I didn't actually realise until just now:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... uck,_Goose!

Scum *do* have daytalk.

Thank you!
I didn't notice it either.