Mini #1647: Eine Kleine Nacht-Mord, Game Over

[TellTaleHeart]

why the fuck would you even ask unless you thought you could find a power role?

You're playing by rational rules, though. Of course everything is going to seem off-kilter in the explanation.

no i don't trust marquis' claim. he lied to us about catching up, so now i don't trust a word he said. he's still a terrible lurker and lair and a good target for a policy lynch. NJAC could have done any of three things, and they would have replaced Marquis' claim because we can't trust it. he could have also claimed VT, which is what probably would have happened, and that would be null. he could have refused to claim, and that would totally mean something, and questions would ensue and i'd probably end up with a much better read on him than i do now, which is what i want. OR he could claim something else which would probably be really scummy and hey that's a good read on him too. good reads are good.

You're essentially scum reading the dog logic, which isn't necessarily scum indicative.

[TellTaleHeart]

Y'all need to let onion speak!

I'm the one who brought it up, though. :S

[prawneater]

@snscompt1

I apologize. My earlier post was abrasive. Let's start over.

Which Llama posts do you like? Do you like any of his cases?

I can go back and quote if needed, but that's not why I read llama town. It's the whole. I like most of his posts. I don't agree with them, but I do like them.
I don't like his cases, but I like way he approaches them. I don't understand the whole CES arguments on anyone.

I would like a few quotes if you don't mind. Which posts do you like? What do you like about how LF approaches his cases?

This feels like a convenient way of keeping your lynch options open. You'd think someone making a readslist would have fully read the game.

If you do that then great. Otherwise, here's my foot.
I did reread the game. I skimmed the walls, not skipped.
You and CD had a few posts scattered. You two werent' constantly engaging in discussion. However, you both weren't what I consider to be lurking. You both were on the edge.
So basically, I would see a post from you or CD and then 50 posts later after an engaging discussion you post again. So by the end of reading, I have no idea where I stand on you two. So, I said I will review and ISO you two

I still have problems believing this. CDB doesn't have very many posts at all. I have slightly more, but none of them are particularly long. I think you could have ISO'd both of us before making your readlist. Why were you in a rush to make the readlist if it wasn't complete?

This is way too bandwagony. You're going to have to elaborate on your Marquis read. I don't know if I like your onion reasoning much either. Do you have an example of you playing like onion as scum?

Oh. Excuse me. I don't like Onion. So I shouldn't vote Onion because others are already voting him.
If you're too fucking blind to see it, I'm a replacement. My views are my views after reading the entire thread. Not as things progress. Would you be saying I was bandwagon if Bubs had been replaced 10 pages ago? No.
Why you ask? Because then it would seem normal. I'm a replacement, so all my thoughts are output when I get replaced in and catch up. I can't change the timing of that. Don't be dense.

You say you've read the entire thread, but you're missing reads, and the reads you do have seem very cursory. I say your reads are bandwagony because they happen to be on the two largest current wagons, and I question if your scumreads are in earnest.

My Marquis read? I've played with them many times and we always clash. This lurking is not alignment indicative in itself, but that was excessive even for Marquis and it is being seen not just through them but the slot. That shouldve been lynched a long time ago.

So you're saying the lurking is not alignment indicative, but he's lurking excessively, so he is scum?

You don't like my onion reasoning? What's new. You're just full of insults aren't you? Well you aren't me. I see Onion as scum because of how I play. Don't like it? Too bad, I wasn't trying to convince you.
Would you rather I simply restate what others have already said about Onion? Would that have been better? Oh wait, that'd be bandwagony. Oh, so I if I want to vote him, I have to come up with brand new reasons? Oh wait, I related a personal experience and that was shut down too.
So the answer is to simply not vote Onion? If Onion flips scum, you're next.

Do I have an example? Probably. I haven't played on this site for 6 months. Go meta me and tell me what you find. I'm not doing you're work for you. I already know I'm town.

Even if you've been gone for 6 months, you should be able to remember what games you were scum in. I would like to read a game where you're scum and acting like onion. Also, can you quote us some of onion's scummy posts?

[snscompt1]

@Prawn

Apology accepted. I will gladly answer your questions.
[post=I would like a few quotes if you don't mind. Which posts do you like? What do you like about how LF approaches his cases?]I would like a few quotes if you don't mind. Which posts do you like? What do you like about how LF approaches his cases?[/post]
Sure thing. Will do that in my next post along with your and CBD's ISO. Stay tuned.

I still have problems believing this. CDB doesn't have very many posts at all. I have slightly more, but none of them are particularly long. I think you could have ISO'd both of us before making your readlist. Why were you in a rush to make the readlist if it wasn't complete?

I didn't feel like it. I read 19 pages and didn't want to read anymore. The first post I make in a game besides saying "Hi" is my initial reaction to everything. At the end of 19 pages, my reaction to you and CDB is void. Call it null. Whatever. I didn't want to classify you there because I have intent on ISO'ing and properly reading you.

You say you've read the entire thread, but you're missing reads, and the reads you do have seem very cursory. I say your reads are bandwagony because they happen to be on the two largest current wagons, and I question if your scumreads are in earnest.

That's fine. You're more than entitled to think that. My reasonings were brief because most people skip a wall of text and it wasn't meant to convince anyone. It was simply a "where I'm at" post. I just replaced in and that's how I wanted to start. If my reads in the future entail that little detail, then by all means lynch me on site. But they won't.

As for my scumreads, yes. They happen to be on the two wagons. Well, funny thing is, if someone is scum, and they act like scum, they tend to have people voting them. And if someone comes in and sees someone acting like scum, they probably would vote them too.
You can question if my reads were in earnest, they were though I can't think of any way of proving that.
However, keep your mind open to the fact that: I really think theyre scummy hence the immediate vote. I doubt scum would be that eager to jump on a bandwagon.

So you're saying the lurking is not alignment indicative, but he's lurking excessively, so he is scum?

That would be my mistake. I worded that poorly. "Lurking is not necessarily alignment indicative in itself, but this was excessive even for Marquis....."
It's hard to determine which lurking is scum or crappy players. Marquis lurks. No denying this. But Marquis is also the person who replaced into a game with me and wrote 50 posts back to back. Now that I'm thinking about it, Marquis did flip scum in that game iirc. But anywho. This was excessive lurking not just for Marquis but for the slot as well. I was able to catch up in a couple hours. Maybe not as detailed as some of you would like, but at least I have an opinion.

Even if you've been gone for 6 months, you should be able to remember what games you were scum in. I would like to read a game where you're scum and acting like onion. Also, can you quote us some of onion's scummy posts?

Then go digging. And sure thing. In my next post.

[prawneater]

From what you've told us about your experiences with Marquis, shouldn't your activity-based reads on him be null? Do you have any other scum-Marquis reads?

Will you make your next post before the lynch deadline? Don't Marquis on us now.

[onion]

tobacco, check. espresso, check. few hours to dedicate, check. DEEP THINKS ARE GO. starting with prawn. back in an hourish.

[Untrod Tripod]

I'm actually pretty excited about reading this

if you weren't intending to be deep before, this should be amazing

[onion]

Deep Think on Prawn, ready to go. Well, up to sns posting at least. what came before his history, but what came with that is 'current' and not suitable for deep thinks yet.

I think Prawn suspects Llama for the following reasons. Prawn, please let me know if there's anything else i should add.

Endangered Llamas Case (Prawn’s case on Llama)
Llama said ‘preservation vote’ first, not Prawn. Llama, when pressured with many many votes very early on, chose to first 100 vote for Tripod whom had 2 votes on him, and then 303 vote for Prawn, whom had 1 vote on him. This indicates bandwagoining rather than scumhunting. Also, Prawn dislikes Llama’s 047, being an attack on GIF, another example of Llama going for the easy target. Since, Llama has continued to argue with Prawn, never stating a decisive point.

I think Prawn likes GIF due to his reaction WAYYYY back about the Cogito List 018. do you like GIF for any other reason?

I think Prawn likes Marquisslot because Marquis town read him in 362, despite Prawn being at 2 votes, which apparently made him 'unpopular'. Seems like a goofy reason to like someone. 2 votes is rather small. Llama was also at 2 votes, so Marquis town-reading Prawn is also supporting the Llamalynch counter-wagon. Its not really something to town-read someone for.

I think Prawn wanted to lynch Bubs, recommending it in 296, 314, then backs off in 340, then is back on 417, then back off again 454. Now he voted for Bub's replacement sns in 479. For not actually having a case on Bubs, or any evidence that he's scummy, Prawn's been on this for quite a while. its suspicious.

In 407, Prawn calls misrepresentation on Llama, but he's wrong. Prawn was denying that people found his things scummy as Llama stated. I've already responded to this in 408. It feels like Prawn was trying to alienate Llama rather than hold to a logical, evidence based case against him. its suspicious.

Prawn likes TellTale's 071 (from 139) because its TellTale agreeing with him, then like CBD's 151 (from 417) ragging on TellTale's reads, which is a bit strange. He kinda supports Tripod in 434 as well. oh and he likes me in 417 as well.

So prawn's been on Llama forever, with such vengeance that they ought not both be scum. He's got a strange, scummy, fixation on lynching Bubsslot, which is yeah a bit scummy. His case on Llama hasn't been crystal clean, but at least he's stuck to it. Stick-to is Pro-town. He lurk-read Marquis, then liked him, which isn't scummy in itself, but his reason for liking marquis is an overreaction and anti-town. oh yeah and he was bright eye'd and bushy tail'd at the dawn of day 1. scum are more on-the-ball about that sort of thing.

Conclusion, Prawn's actions as of before sns are just a bit scummy. but just a bit. why the wagon on him? i trust derangement so

Derangement, you voted Prawn in 425 because of his place on the Llamawagon (as stated in 411). is that the case? why do you find his position suspicious? (i also find it suspicious, but why do you?)

Alright! that was a lot of work! sheesh. hour break, food and stuff, then i'll get back to it. i should probably address current pages before continuing my delve into history. whoosh

[Derangement]

Conclusion, Prawn's actions as of before sns are just a bit scummy. but just a bit. why the wagon on him? i trust derangement so

Derangement, you voted Prawn in 425 because of his place on the Llamawagon (as stated in 411). is that the case? why do you find his position suspicious? (i also find it suspicious, but why do you?)

If I recall correctly, at the time of Post 411, Prawn had been focussing on Llama too much for my tastes, with little recent hunting for other scum.
There was only the proposal to lynch one of the onions

(#296)

, which I didn't agree with. He claimed it was reaction-fishing.

Llama was over-tunneling Prawn in return, having

no

recent scum-hunting interactions with anyone else, with made it hard for me to figure out which of the two was most likely scum: The one doing nothing on the side, or the one doing maybe questionable things.

I didn't quite like the reaction test, so I thought I'd ask him about something else that came up when I was re-reading ISOs

(#411)

, in hopes of getting a better idea for Prawn's motivation.

Seeing him post some more

(#417)

, while skipping over my question frustrated me:
I was truly torn between him and Llama, and he was not helping me decide either way.
So I voted him to ensure I got an answer.

(#425)

To clarify:

I do

not

think it's suspicious to be the fourth person on that wagon, putting Llama at L-2.
I might have done the same thing myself, if I'd read Equinox's answer

(#24)

before the vote happened.

What I wanted to, was to have Prawn commit to a less vague answer about putting Llama at

L-1

, and hopefully get an explanation why.
He did not disappoint.

(#434)

[onion]

alright back to work!

@derangement, so your vote was to pressure him into answering your questions, which he did, which is a good answer i think, and you are satisfied as well. I'm taking that to mean that you don't find Prawn overly super suspicious at this point, which is good because I don't find him overly suspicious at this point either, just a little bit suspicious.

I'll deal with some stuff that happened in the last 3 pages now, because it involves people trying to lynch me, and then i'll delve back into the previous 20 pages once more. please await with bated breath.

[Untrod Tripod]

I'm pretty much thinking it's gonna be a llama lynch because that's what we'll actually have the votes for

and I'm fairly okay with that

[onion]

473 sns - appeared, posted read list. (which is bad. complete readlists are bad) and voted onion.

476 Prawn - doubted sns's list.
478 sns - eyeroll'd at Prawn.
479 Prawn - voted: sns because fak yo shit.
480 sns - voted: Prawn because omgus.

that's a pretty crazy interaction right there. very anti-town out of sns, but Bubs was so townish! and they have to be the same alignment! blarg.

@Derangement 486
the big thinks are big. i ought to have been doing this the whole time, but i got busy and lazy, but i'm doing it now, and i'm hoping that i can hash out what i think. i DID hash out what i think about Prawn, which is good stuff, and i'm intending to others as well. so yeah, big thinks might produce alterations in who i find suspicious.

i'm trying to push my scumreads rather than balk about people voting for me, because that's pro-town, but first i need to really nail down what the reads are. reads are Town!Derangement and Mildlyscummy!Prawn, and Scum!Tripod, but i've only justified my prawn suspicion at this point. Deep thinks about tripod are going to be hard because he as 100 fucking posts, but i'll try to justify that one down hard, and let everyone know exactly what the things are that we should lynch him for. marquis too. i suspect i really am just mad at him for lying, but maybe there's something in there.

I've always been a bit iffy about the pro-townness of roleclaims. Ideally power roles don't get into a situation where they need to claim or get lynched, but it happens because we kinda suck. in these situations its more pro-town to reveal your power role and eat the night kill than it is to let the town lynch you. this is because you, as a power role, know that whoever it is they lynch other than you stands a better chance of being scum than you do, because you are town-aligned.

there's a little strange caveat in this because often the power roles don't count towards the number of townies alive to prevent scum victory, and so it seems like it would be possible for a situation to arise in which risking them lynching a VT is more dangerous than letting them lynch you. it's probably only clear in hindsight though. plus that was sorta off topic, so back to the topic.

usually it is not in the town's interests for a power role to claim, because it is better to keep them hidden from the scum. for example, a cop randomly claiming would result in the scum NKing him, and that would be bad. But because its less bad than lynching the cop and letting the scum NK someone else, the roleclaim becomes pro-town. its choosing the lesser of two bad situations.

so related to our game. I requested NJAC to claim when he wasn't at L-1 and you see this as suspect. This means that you think it would be harmful to the town for him to claim in this situation. If he had a power role, and Marquis fake claimed, it would be harmful for him to real-claim now, and it would be scummy of me to cause that. if he didn't have a power role, and marquis claimed true or is scum and false claimed, it would be valuable to the town to know that NJAC thinks the claim served his win condition, whichever it may be.

Right now its exactly like Marquis didn't claim, and we didn't lynch the lying lurker for no reason. because we can't believe his claim. i'm mad at him for being so utterly worthless and throwing into question the only thing that wasn't useless. i don't see any NJAC in the coming 3 pages, which means he's STILL lurking and we STILL have no information on him, and we STILL didn't lynch the lurker liar for no reason.

So i acknowledge your questions derangement. I'd hope NJAC would make up for Marquis but he isn't, and the only situation where NJAC re-claiming would be harmful to us is if he really had a power role and really claimed it, which is both unlikely, and i'd very probably not believe him unless he had some evidence. in every other situation, NJAC re-claiming would provide us with a tiny little bit of information, which would be good because right now i have exactly zero information on him.

-=-

489 sns - sheesh inner rage much?

496 TellTale - sorry to be ignoring you and hay read my posts dag nabbit. i work hard on those. but had i read this post before posting my Prawn Deep Think i'd probably have said something about it. it really seems like there was no case on Prawn.

i do see 498 TellTale here heavily pushing a lynch on NJAC or Llama. they seem reasonable possible lynches, but the heavy push is a bit off-putting.

499 CBD - but but but... and CBD 501 wants me to move my vote as well.

506 Equinox - yeah um, see response to Derangement above.
Where IS NJAC anyway...

511-523 TellTale and Tripod - i don't know if it fits the definition of role-fishing or PR hunting. Please read the response to Derangement above, where i explain why i believe my request was pro-town.

525 TellTale - what is dog logic?

528 sns - "i doubt scum would be that eager to jump on a bandwagon." i don't like that statement right there, very wifomy.

...oops thats it BAM

So it really looks like i need to deep think on Llama next. see if a vote on him is actually warranted. i didn't like him 200 pages ago, but that's pretty outdated.

[prawneater]

I think Prawn likes GIF due to his reaction WAYYYY back about the Cogito List 018. do you like GIF for any other reason?

Nope. He's a slight townread.

I think Prawn wanted to lynch Bubs, recommending it in 296, 314, then backs off in 340, then is back on 417, then back off again 454. Now he voted for Bub's replacement sns in 479. For not actually having a case on Bubs, or any evidence that he's scummy, Prawn's been on this for quite a while. its suspicious.

There are many people I don't want to lynch today. Bubs' lynch is POE. Also, his gifs kinda annoyed me. That said, I never found bubs particularly scummy, which is why there's no case. sns on the other hand...

In 407, Prawn calls misrepresentation on Llama, but he's wrong. Prawn was denying that people found his things scummy as Llama stated. I've already responded to this in 408. It feels like Prawn was trying to alienate Llama rather than hold to a logical, evidence based case against him. its suspicious.

I'm not wrong. Equinox and CDB have both distanced themselves from LF's case. TTH doesn't get LF either. I don't think anyone has sheeped LF. Also, my attacking LF here is part of a larger point. The point being that LF makes trumped up cases.

[prawneater]

I'm pretty much thinking it's gonna be a llama lynch because that's what we'll actually have the votes for

and I'm fairly okay with that

What do you think of an sns lynch?

[LlamaFluff]

Seriously we need to just lynch Prawn.

We are not lynching NJAC because of the VT claim. That one is easy to sort out.
We are not lynching onion because of the whole three scum + what their friend apparently told him. Even if he was scum I really doubt he had the idea to post that in thread to apparently fake town slip or something
We are not lynching me for the same reason we are keeping NJAC alive
We are not lynching anyone else (particularly GIF) because I don't think a wagon can form fast enough

Its going to be a prawn lynch or no lynch here, basically guaranteed. Check out how he is trying to justify a lynch of another null read now too:

Also, his gifs kinda annoyed me. That said, I never found bubs particularly scummy, which is why there's no case.

Then he basically just tacks on "OMGUS on sns". I seriously think every scum read of his is someone who called him scum first or was lurking (Marquis). Literally the entire case on sns from Prawn is "I don't like his read and he called me scum and I don't agree with that"

[Untrod Tripod]

We are not lynching onion because of the whole three scum + what their friend apparently told him. Even if he was scum I really doubt he had the idea to post that in thread to apparently fake town slip or something

so...because wifom

[Untrod Tripod]

there's a little strange caveat in this because often the power roles don't count towards the number of townies alive to prevent scum victory

may I just ask

gently

where this idea came from

[prawneater]

Seriously we need to just lynch Prawn.

We are not lynching me for the same reason we are keeping NJAC alive

??? Why are we not lynching you for the same reason we are keeping NJAC alive????

Its going to be a prawn lynch or no lynch here, basically guaranteed.

False dilemma. The fact that you can't be bothered to think of another lynch speaks to your lack of town-involvement and actual scumreads.

Then he basically just tacks on "OMGUS on sns". I seriously think every scum read of his is someone who called him scum first or was lurking (Marquis).

Literally the entire case on sns from Prawn is "I don't like his read and he called me scum and I don't agree with that"

My vote on sns is not an OMGUS. His opening post never called me scum. His vote on ME is an OMGUS, so you can vote that if you want.

I never scumread Marquis.

I voted you before you voted me

Are you even reading this game anymore? It feels like you just check in to iso me and make a bad attack.

There are many questions directed at you that you still have not answered.

[onion]

@Tripod for example, look at the cop wikipage here:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cop
at the bottom is a sample PM role. it says "and there is at least one town player alive." that means if the scum kill all the VTs, they win, even if there's a cop alive. least i assume that's what that means. is that what that means? i'm confused.

BUT FORWARD WITH THE CONFUSION Here's deep thoughts on Llama. I also really don't like at all 539 at all. telling us what we can and can't do?! pshaw.

Llama, you started off 081 suspecting GIF due to his 018 reaction to being on the Cogito List. But then 100 you moved your vote to Tripod, explaining that you liked GIF backing off both the Llama and UT wagons in 105. However, both backoffings (079 and 080) were really very weak and under justified. I feel like a townie who suspected GIF would be more suspicious of GIF’s wonky behavior, not less. And then in 234 and 237 you say you still suspect him. What happened to the backoffings?

Also, you've kept that vote on Tripod ever since. Do you still think he's scum? Or are you just backing the counterwagon to yours? what are your current thoughts about GIF?

Yes. What counter wagon? I could move my vote to three other people and they would have the same number of votes as UT has now. You are using the same poor argument prawn is using where you set it up to no matter who I vote I am apparently voting in self-preservation because its not the only vote for the player. GIF is still a good scum bet.

I dun’t likes it. This is me asking why you are voting for Tripod, and what i get is you lumping me into this preservation vote argument with Prawn, which you invented and the rest of us adopted. Llama was the first person to say ‘preservation vote.’ Plus its not even true. way to be overly defensive and suspicious.

In 303 you swap your vote over to Prawn, getting annoyed at him for calling your votes ‘preservation votes’ even though they were and you yourself coined the term, not Prawn. From here on out we hear nothing about Tripod nor GIF for for… forever? i was expecting to fill this in with the post where you get back to them. hasn’t happened yet.

I was trying to summarize your case on Prawn and give it a catchy case name, but i just can’t pick it out. you accuse him of tunneling and being useless, while you tunnel and be useless yourself. You were right in 386 at least, and i’d be willing to agree that you were both useless. Pretty sure 389 doesn’t make any sense at all. in 405 you state your own reasons as GIF’s 296 and 384, which i’ll agree are slightly mildly scummy. its not worth a lynch though.

Notice how Prawn immediately dismissed (again) my push on him by saying that only I saw things as scummy. Which apart from being a blatant lie (Equinox voted him for similar things, UT appears to have as well, CDB, onion and OB have been calling him scum for the same things) is just a way of actually again dismissing my attacks without really answering them.

i dun likes it. it implies that Llama has posted a case or some questions or something that Prawn ought to answer, but no he didn’t post anything. I don’t know what Llama was expecting Prawn to respond to. it might just be scummy rabblerousing. This is an example of a trumped up case that Prawn’s talking about.

ok, what is sheeping?

-=-

So yeah, it looks like Llama really IS trumped up case toting and very bandwagony. He omgus'd Tripod, and i think the only reason we heard anything about GIF was because i was hounding him about it. Then he omgus'd Prawn, and we've heard nothing about either GIF nor Tripod ever since. it really does seem like he's just voting for who he can rather than who he suspects.

After a response and following argument with Llama, (unless he changes my mind) i'd consider voting for him.

so, balls in your court llama. DEFEND THYSELF.

[Untrod Tripod]

@Tripod for example, look at the cop wikipage here:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cop
at the bottom is a sample PM role. it says "and there is at least one town player alive." that means if the scum kill all the VTs, they win, even if there's a cop alive. least i assume that's what that means. is that what that means? i'm confused.

that's not what it means. town power roles are members of the town, thus would qualify as that one member.

[Untrod Tripod]

like for example if the game has an sk, and it got down to 1 town 1 sk 1 mafia, the town would lose even if they lynched mafia because they would get endgammed by the sk. that's why the wincon is written the way it is.

anyway

unvote vote llama

I'm a big fan of your walls. remind me about them if I start voting for you again

[onion]

oh well never mind then. good because it would prevent the town from being at LYLO without knowing it. can we get a mod confirmation on this please?

petroleumjelly: hypothetically, if there were no Vanilla Townies alive, but there were still both town-aligned power roles and scum alive, would the game immediately end in scum victory because all the VT's are dead?

[Untrod Tripod]

the answer to that is no....

have you never played mafia before?

[Untrod Tripod]

what I'm really curious about is how you could have possibly thought that was true

[onion]

also another reason to consider a Llamalynch is

DAAAAA bum bum bum bum, bum bum baa dum ba di da di da da di da da di da...
Episode V, Return of the Formal Logic:

Scum!Llama --> both Town!Prawn AND Town!Tripod. That would be a big load off my mind. again this is me needing a single-way implication symbol, because i don't think Town!Llama would imply that both Prawn AND Tripod are scum. maybe one of them? it would be a point against them at any rate.