New York 182 - Game Over

[copper223]

VOTE: choof
I forgot about this one Boon

[copper223]

@Anti
I am swamped by games at the moment and Boon is in another large with me, I was expecting this large to take a much longer time to fill.

[copper223]

VOTE: Varsoon

[copper223]

So for all of you, Choof was most likely town, he did not get what was going on with the flash train on Varsoon and Thor asking him why he was townreading a guy that hadn't posted yet, so he thought we were making a joke at his expense and mr. unpleasant here in the form Gorkinton confirmed it for him, plus I've seen his early town posting in a newbie and it's the same jokey/scummy but not really mix.

I think house is more likely than not to be town.

Just make a case on Antihero when he says something scummy, pressure the fuck out if him and if he starts lurking lynch.

Varsoon, still a hero for vig. shooting Medea the Alien

Pressure on Thor is not likely to accomplice much, hard read D1.

Pisskop, good place to start looking for scum, what you've tried to do with choof is keep both alignments on the table instead of giving your opinion about which one is more likely and I am not a fan.

VOTE: Pisskop

[copper223]

Thanks, that would be swell.

[copper223]

Just make a case on Antihero when he says something scummy, pressure the fuck out if him and if he starts lurking lynch.

you've never played w/ me when i'm town...

where did you get this from?

From your sister describing your scum meta to me and from how you reacted the last time you were scum and more than just one or two players piled onto you.

[copper223]

Wow hated? that's why you managed to become a magnet of votes! (joking i know what hated means).
I didn't know Hated/Loved were Normal roles.
As for everyone wondering about the wagon on Varsoon, and Thor's questioning that's Thor being Thor.
A Translation of Thor's intent for those that don't know him:
Thor likes early wagons run up as high as L-1 as soon as possible.
Such wagons can get interesting reactions from other people and the person being wagoned.
Since Varsoon should be a nullread at most for anyone and has the highest ammount of votes, he assumes the only reason someone wouldn't vote him is because of a townread or him, or a scumread on someone else. Hence his questioning.

Notice also that when i said i was townreading the people voting Varsoon some people jumped in to vote in. Me harassing people not voting him as possible scum partners was waiting to see who and how would cave in to pressure. choof became a scumread out of that, Gorky whatchamacallit became a townread instead, antihero im still not sure on, but if he's town he'll become obvious eventually. I agree with pisskop about the replace out being null, but i just can't find it in me to think that his feelings about not knowing what was going on weren't genuine.
Anyway, copper decides to vote Varsoon and leave, not even thoughts, not even reaction about the wagon being formed, so i'm going to go there now.

Unvote
Vote: copper

PEd: Good morning anti

The purpose of a flash wagon is to give the impression you are going to lynch a player and see how others react, I voted there to keep the momentum going after gorkinton and choof stopped it and I had no opinion on Varsoon's alignment at the time, nor was I going to say what I thought about the wagon, that it was a big reaction test, while it was going on as that would defeat it's purpose, what opinions did you have on the wagon?

[copper223]

could have same issue with a doublevoter.
most non-normal thing about it is the neg-utility aspect imo, but i dont think theyd rule against that.
for now i think varsoon's play is more important to look at.

From your sister describing your scum meta to me and from how you reacted the last time you were scum and more than just one or two players piled onto you.

why does towncopper tell anti how he is going to see if hes scum?
surprise answer: he doesnt.
get it?

Because it's not something he can control much and he will probably just look awkward if he does and I can't produce that kind of pressure alone so I need that read to be know, get it?

[copper223]

Ok you are a PL for me.

[copper223]

@Sakura
1./2. It keeps those you are trying to reaction test wandering what is going on while any scumread I would write on Varsoon would be BS and potentially spoil it, if I gave my other reads in the same post that might distract from the Varsoon wagon and shift the focus to discussing those reads, especially from someone like Choof who was desperately milling around trying to relate and again would not make much sense in the middle of a reaction test.

- Why are you picking out my naked vote in particular?
- Why do you have a nullread on Choof?

Your explaination of why you followed the wagon, because Thor was being Thor, doesn't mean anything, the part about putting pressure I can understand but since joining that wagon was pro-town anyway as it is an easy way to start collecting information, I doubt you can make alignment related statements based on what Anti and I chose to do after what you said, if Varsoon is scum then look at those that did neither join nor post against it for his teammates is the most I can deduce.

3. Other than you and Thor, everyone else played it out in the same way so that goes back to you selecting me in particular.

[copper223]

@Sakura
"He could have played it like we did" is a sentence you keep on using and have yet to explain who we are or why the fact I chose to play it differently according to you is scum indicative?

What I saw was a bunch of naked votes and you selecting mine for as of yet unexplained or conflicting reasons, like:"I don't like naked votes", fair enough where's the pressure on Boon, Pisskop, Marquis and Antihero, or are you claiming a naked vote plus fluff filler like a "yo" is less scum indicative?

I have a townlean on silverwolf because there seems to be no narrative attempt from her, more like spontaneous posts based on what is happening and her emotional state which is something town is more likely to do.

@Gorkinton
No empty threat mate, the way you are approaching the game with those cookie cutter scumreads, you are scum because you post a smile, clearly buddying up, you are scum because you answered the question, clearly overexplaining, you are scum because you scumread me back and I am an easy lynch because I was being mean, clearly scum looking for an easy lynch, without any kind of analysis or thought about what the actual content of the posts is and what other different (and I think well explained) motivations I had is useless and dangerous town to leave around or scum looking for superficially scummy BS, either way you are not going to help me win.

VOTE: Gorkinton

[copper223]

Except anti did explain his vote, he wanted me to love him (a.k.a he voted to go with the flow of my reaction test, so null).
pisskop voted with a "hi" or "yo" in this case, on top of that the vote happened before Thor's post or mine which is when i was actually reaction testing people and he did contribute to the whole debate, while you didn't.

Like I don't even know how to reply about the anti thing , I had nothing non game related I could attach to that vote like he did although I am sure you are lovable, and I explained why I did not want to put something game related into it.

I am sorry to burst your bubble but I did not even think about your post and what you claim is your reaction test in that way, at the time I interpreted your post as: "Sakura knows that Thor like to flash wagon and is helping him out", and I got a lean town from it, I believe if you were testing, you were doing so for the wrong thing there because both scum caving into the pressure, scum not affiliated with Varsoon, and town willing to get the most out of Thor's early wagon would join, so how are you going to separate the two, let alone the whole WIFOM you have to sift through anyway about scum noticing your reaction test and posting with that in mind.

Considering I get a lot of emotional outbursts as either alignment, i can tell you that emotion is not indicative of town, and Thor pointed out why it could be faked, or did you miss that too?

You are the one missing things, scum can certainly have emotional outburst, the point I am making about Silverwolf is that her play doesn't seem planned nor self-conscious, those look like posts about how she feels about the game at the time she is reading and scum is more likely to catch-up, pause and think: what's good for me here, and then post. Plus are you trying to say this is a bad read from me and I am not very good or that this read is scum indicative?

[copper223]

you are funny I'll admit, I am not answering on purpose until you fix your form of address to others.

[copper223]

Fair enough, I am also thinking along the lines of a fakeclaim but that's not something only scum does.

[copper223]

@Thor
The playstile he has used in his town games, grab attention and bait votes, is pretty dangerous as scum and he doesn't seem like the kind to try and mirror himself out of meta awareness, so the fact he was starting to behave in the same way here is what supports the townread.

[copper223]

@Thor

@Thor
The playstile he has used in his town games, grab attention and bait votes, is pretty dangerous as scum and he doesn't seem like the kind to try and mirror himself out of meta awareness, so the fact he was starting to behave in the same way here is what supports the townread.

This sounds really silly to me.

You're saying his playstyle was, functionally, dumb for scum to ever do because it was dangerous.
And surmise that he would not play that was as scum and have a totally different playstyle?

Please tell me I'm not grokking something here, because this sounds shallower than Kanye West's empathy for his fellow artists.

You are ignoring one part of the argument, that I don't think he is the kind to mirror himself. While his playstile is dangerous as scum it makes sense as town, especially in Rome where he comes from, so he would have a purpose to behave in the same way and plan to enter the game accordingly whereas the only advantage of doing the same thing as scum is to look like yourself as town.

Why did you select one part of the answer to criticize? Are you impying the read is made up?

[copper223]

where's the fire copper?
if you're so convinced that I'm scum then why is your passion for pushing me so weak.
i gave you the opportunity to clarify your read on me and you swatted it away.
you havent asked anyone else to look at me or make a case on me, so i ask you, what exactly is it that youre doing with your vote on me right now?
do you want to ask me questions or ask my for clarifications on things or are you just hoping to buy into towncred for the omgus?

Now that you are finally addressing me properly let's continue.

1. I said based on what I have seen of your play you are an excellent PL target, not that I am convinced you are scum, that's BS number 1.

2. You continued to be annoying and if you want to be a dick I'll do the same, with the added bonus that I have little doubt I can get you lynched in the mean time so I don't have to put up with you.

3. You keep attributing emotional states to me to justify your points which you have no clue about, you said I was angry, coy, not passionate enough, I am sure there is some other nonsense in your ISO, where are you getting these information from?

4. The point I made about you is pretty simple, every post you are writing on the copper scumread is about taking what I said and trying to fit it into a category that looks scummy, like buddying, omgus scumreading, overexplaining... as opposed to reading the actual content of the post and deciding on my motivation, it's an abysmal form of scumhunting at best and just as likely a scumtell similar to buzzwording.

5. Why do you think I would get towncred for OMGUS scumreading you?

[copper223]

Yes, i am pretty sure that is what I'm implying which is why I'm asking you to defend the methods you used to create the answer.
Why...is that a problem for some reason?

It's definitely wrong for starters, now I can decide if it's scum wrong or just wrong.

How do you divine this conclusion?

You're saying his playstyle was, functionally, dumb for scum to ever do because it was dangerous.
And surmise that he would not play that was as scum and have a totally different playstyle?

Do you see any trace of the mirror estimation in your summary? I thought not, so I don't need to divine anything.

[copper223]

Did you seriously just take a part of a post I used when quoting your logic for scumreading me and attribute it to myself in regards to you out of context?

[copper223]

@Gork

Cooper sucks. Sure.
You suck worse for the misrep - I'm on his side on that point.

You are probably scum.

[copper223]

@Gorkinton
That is the best possible demonstration of my PL case on you, you are not reading the content of the posts (I ment in the sense of thinking about it but apparently literally as well) but instead trying to buzzword them into something scummy using frankly underhanded strategies like attributing emotional states to me in order to justify your statements.

[copper223]

hi.
i told you to elaborate on that post and you didnt. you get to be a total meanie like this when i misunderstand you and dont ask for clarification.

Ask me properly next time and I will be happy to clarify, although I would assume you are able to read the english language so I still find that post problematic to say the least.

What you did instead was refuse to do so, try to pressure me into replying anyway and call me scum for it, who's the meanie here exactly?

[copper223]

Copper why pl which is bs why not scum lynch?

He is also my strongest scumread and has the added advantage of being a good lynch even if I am wrong, that's all that PL there means.

[copper223]

so copper, are you consoling yourself on the reasoning behind your vote on me in the off chance im town?
because if so im so coming to get you tonight if i dont get lamelynched today.

Why would you expect that of your scumread? That sounds like you know I am town.

[copper223]

i just softclaimed my main at you.
i hope you realize how skrewed you are now

Ehhhhh?

[copper223]

Whatever you are doing, this in the off chance you are town, put a stop to it.

[copper223]

dont worry about it.
try and get me lynched today if you can.
for tonight, we dine, in heck!

The only player bad enough for you to be an alt of is BBT.

[copper223]

You're sweet; hows about your push me if you think Im scum.

I am not sold on this yet, some of your more recent posts I thought were more town indicative.

Thor making statements about the quality of play while FOSing the same players is scummy.

[copper223]

Do you see any trace of the mirror estimation in your summary?

I thought not, so I don't need to divine anything.

Yes you do - you need to explain why you are able to puzzle out that he wouldn't play in that method as scum - which is what your townread of him is based upon.

[copper223]

My townread of him is based on his posting during the flash wagon, another part of the read you are now ignoring, and supported by what my meta read of him tells me of him as a player.

[copper223]

@Gorkinton
Wait a second, do you need to take a plane to come and get me?

[copper223]

If that's your main then you are probably not scum but your read of me this game is horrible! It would also kind of explain Thor if he knows your alts.

[copper223]

@Gork
It's the amount of content, not your play, so don't feel bad about it, but really poor Choof!

UNVOTE:

[copper223]

Even now tthat I think I know I don't get the soft, that was too smart for me.

[copper223]

By these two comments, what I get is that you believe the following;

1. That he has a risky town playstyle.
2. That he isn't good enough/sensible enough/risky enough to copy his town playstyle when playing as scum.
3. That he was town here, due to this.

I am asking you (and am now asking again) WHY THE HELL YOU BELIEVE #2.
If I have #2 wrong - feel free to clarify what you actually meant.
But I am pretty sure I grok your meaning that far, and also am pretty sure that this conclusion popped out of ruddy nowhere - prove me wrong.

Where do you expect me to get that conclusion, it's a judgment call I am making after seeing how he plays.

[copper223]

Theoretically you spotted a call to make, and applied some sort of judgement to it - describe that process.

The process is the same for every read I make, I try to profile a player based on what he is showing, does he play to win or to have fun, is he calculating or impulsive, does he get lynched often, how good is his knowledge of theory... and then I decide if the mindset he is showing is more likely to be his town mindset or his scum mindset.

[copper223]

1. When did you choose to look over choof's game? When he first reacted negatively to the flash wagon.
2. Do you usually look over players' games? If I think it's relevant.
3. What's your favorite color? Blue.
4. Did you or did you not share a scum QT with Choof? No.
5. Do you believe white lies are okay in a relationship, yes or no? Yes

[copper223]

@Thor
You are asking me to describe subconscious routines, how do I suspect if someone is lying to me? It's part of my daily life to asses people and try to figure them out so you develop a skill for it, in choof's case I don't see what he did in the other game and followed up with in this one as coming fron scum, let's say he is a ballsy jokester that will always bait votes on himself, do you think he would be as self conscious as he appeared to get when he thought the rest of us were joking at his expense? If he always plays like that he should be used to any kind of reaction from others, more that shows a kind of arrogance or strong belief in self worth that he can manipulate others at will, that kind of player is not liable to replace in a huff, more likely he would figure out the flash wagon's purpose to begin with, and if not would likely laugh along thinking to himself that the joke is going to be on us in the end, I saw none of that from him so that's why I believe he was town here and developed that particular playstile to try and be helpful in Rome.

[copper223]

@Thor
In that sense any tell is gut, you have to interpret what you read so your thought process influences it, I claimed I made that townread with the help of reading his meta, which is what I did, if you want to claim there is another way to use meta that relies less on gut and more on direct comparison of scum vs town meta I agree but that is not what I said, that's you projecting what you think meta cases should be on how I used meta.

@Elusive
Don't worry, I'll still call you obv. town despite your mistakes.

@All
re-reasing tonight because now that I think I know who Gorkinton is and that she was role playing a role tunnelling on me at the start of he day is not unusual and the value of interpreting those blatantly riduculous scumreads goes diwn dramatically cause I know despite pretending to be a dubce here that she is really good.

[copper223]

Stupid phone posting makes me look illiterate lol.

[copper223]

Lol

[copper223]

No, but Varsoon, you really are a Village Idiot.

If you believe this why are you voting for him?

[copper223]

Sorry guys, can't keep up and do this game justice, have fun!

@mod: replacing out, sorry!

[copper223]

Sorry guys, can't keep up and do this game justice, have fun!

@mod: replacing out, sorry!

@mod: Forget about this, I'll try to post when I have time but I'll have to figure out a different way to play this game cause my usual style is too time consuming.

[copper223]

Lol how come?

[copper223]

I'll do this, I'll pick a player to read each day and answer questions others ask me, that's about the best I can do until some other shorter game finishes.

[copper223]

@Varsoon
Who was talking with CoA when you tried to vig. shoot them, you or Metal?

[copper223]

It sure is, as I can look in detail about who that particular player choose to interact with and why as opposed to just reading 10 pages of the thread every time I am able to check and forgetting what the first post was even about.

[copper223]

Varsoon is the default lynch for the fakeclaim if we don't find a majority on someone else's case but I am reading it as a derp town move.

VOTE: Antihero
I agree with Varsoon, I think he is pushing on the players he thinks he can get away with.

[copper223]

It sure does once I read about it, calling possible scum what you thought was an empty slot was a deciding factor.

[copper223]

Plus I have seen the same blend of supposed tunnelling towards Varsoon and Pisskop from you on davesaz when you played that horrible game with the heartless hydra, it is hard to say here because you have legitimate reasons to push on Varsoon and I was the first to say Pisskop looked scummy (still does), but that read really came out of the blue for me.

@Sakura
Since when is being aware odpf the setup a towntell?

[copper223]

I don't need your town meta to decide if this looks like the same anti that was scum in the other game, I read you scum and Mastin as SK at the end of D1 and you laughed at me because funnily enough according to the scum QT you thought Mastin was town, unfortunately your sister was playing super town to throw me off. The fact you are getting better at copying your town meta is a problem for those that played with the old anti, I don't have a baseline on your town game so it's irrelevant.

What made you think my slot was more likely scum than not?

[copper223]

I told you what I think of Varsoon, I was one of the first that agreed it was looking like a fakeclaim 292 because his whole talk about judging him for his play as opposed to his claim and trying to downplay the value of claims in general sounded to me like him either rationalizing the bad play he had just made or preemptively defending himself in case he was forced to admit it was a fakeclaim. Having played with him and knowing he can be flighty with claims I am inclinded to believe he is town, with no great degree of confidence.

As for Gorkinton, I don't know what to think of him or which male player would tell me I am screwed with any degree of authority, some have tricked me when they were scum and I was town but I have yet to lose as scum and the closest I have come is to TTH or Mollie, both female.

He said himself he was roleplaying a character, I don't know what he was going for but it must be a dumb character from the change in posting, so what exactly pings you about me recognizing there was something off with those reads?

[copper223]

@Thor
He may have changed his mind, I read 771 and agree with the general idea, it's not the rethoric, it's the you must be scum stance he initially had which he then abandonded for a while to pursue Pisskop and came back to later, if you are committed to LaL you stick to it, you don't go hardcore, then when the wagon is waning you discard it only to pick it up again later.

[copper223]

Why do you think so?

[copper223]

He told you himself he is getting better at it.

[copper223]

If I do it would be because I'd believe you to be always right, which is unlikely, but this is not as much me asking you to join if you don't think Anti is scum, it's more about figuring out if you have what I comsider to be a valid reason to say he is town.

[copper223]

copper's push on obvtown anti is not sitting well with me, specially with the argument "his scum game has improved".

Interesting post, when has he become obv. town and how did you manage to translate tunneling in a way that doesn't seem genuine and being opportunistic on who he is pushing scum on to "he improved his scum game", which is not part of my scumread but rather my reply to House who seems like he is not willing to consider Anti scum "cause he would suck", misrep much?

[copper223]

@Varsoon
Since you used that card you might as well tell us what you are now claiming unless you claim you can confirm yourself without giving your exact role away tomorrow or you claim there is a good reason not to do so today, it was in the back of my mind that it could be a panic reaction of a role getting run-up, but what Marquis posted about you saying everything that you possibly can to not get lynched also makes sense.

[copper223]

@Sakura
Your initial reaction to my Anti scumread was that you stand by your initial read of Anti investigating the Varsoon roleclaim which is more likely to be Anti town, I already asked about why you think being aware of the setup and thus being the first to catch the lie is more likely to be a towntell so if you could answer that it would make me happy, and because of meta. The way you replied made me think you considered the possibility of Anti scum and decided you thought he was more likely to be town. Forward a few pages and now, without any meaningful comtribution from Anti you switched to having him as obv. town and apparently forgot about my initial case.

My case is that his tunnel on Varsoon may be fake because he starts with a very inflexible position, you are not hated so you must be scum, die, appeared to change his mind (at the time I thought he read my post about not only scum fakeclaiming and thought about it as well, but he later said he was scumreading my slot so I don't see why he would give particular weight to my thoughts) which now looks like leaving Varsoon alone because the wagon was stalling, only to jump up on it again when it was renewed by others, the Pisskop scumread is once again jumping on someone that Anti knows at least one player considers scummy cause I already said so myself, once again I thought we might be reading the game similarly but that scumread on my slot changed that, and is based on Pisskop being rude and unlikeable because he is using ad hominem and AtE's more than him being actually scummy. Finally he scumreads my slot when he thinks there is noone there to defend it, and considering he either sheeped or read at least 2 times (Varsoon arrow 3 to 4 and Pisskop) the game in the same way I did I find that read pretty opportunistic and he has yet to convince me he genuinely believed it.

[copper223]

@Sakura
Ok I will re-read to see if I get the same townvibe from the frustration you claim is in these posts, I still don't get why your level of certainty on Anti apoeared to go up so much but it's not as big of a deal.

[copper223]

@Oka
Or we could lynch a town PR that didn't want to out himself and fucked up when he could confirm himself the day after, you are not looking at the dowside and Sakura's position here makes a lot of sense to me, I don't like 1/2 of those scumreads though.

[copper223]

Fuzzy and Elusive, the only way I see them as scum is if they are buddies, I completely messed up my Choof read and Elusive after pocketing me decided it was more expedient to normalize her read on me in case a lynch could be pushed, that is such a concatenation of unlikely choices I am discounting it.

What I think is more likely is that Choof (now Fuzzy) was town, got annoyed by not ubderstanding what was going on and nobody empathizing with him (strong indicator that he had no buddies) and left, and both Elusive and I figured out his alignment from it, I'd be willing to bet 20$ they are both town.

[copper223]

Also Formerfish tended to lurk as scum only after getting townread by most, to begin with he tried his best to look like he was scumhunting, then he posted only when necessary, in the game we played where he was mafia traitor, for those asking about his scum meta.

[copper223]

@Sakura
I have to check if what Pisskop said about being undefeated is true and how many scum games he has played at what level, because while he does at times look scummy to me if it's true I don't think he is trying to look town here which could mean he is, that is a scumread I can get behind with though.

I haven't checked Otolia much but if he did those things I don't like him, minus the last point you make which is a null for me.

Oka I am nullish/town on, Varsoon claimed himself that he is a confirmable so Oka asking him why he doesn't do so today isn't really scummy for me, but you I can see your argument as well, I would have to know Oka better before being able to give a valuable opinion.

[copper223]

@Sakura
Ok I will re-read to see if I get the same townvibe from the frustration you claim is in these posts, I still don't get why your level of certainty on Anti apoeared to go up so much but it's not as big of a deal.

Also how did this go.

I don't see it, where is he frustrated? I see him explaining why he is "hammering" on it, because it buys you cheap towncred as a claim and is not likely to be accepted by the NRG, that looks like a logical and emotionless scumread to me.

[copper223]

Thor or Antihero, both have a good chance of being scum after those flip, one guy said FF lurks as scum, I think that person is town (sorry can't check, too busy working 12+ hours today ), Elusive and Fuzzy also town, waiting to read from Varsoon.

p-edit: please don't choose who to lynch while ai am working based on the number of puppies presented in a case.

[copper223]

Looks like you are overthinking it Pisskop.

- Thor pushed for a flash wagon and Sakura immediately backed him up with her fake reaction test.

- Thor built a case out of thin air based on his interpretation of how you are supposed to cite meta in a post which was different from how I used it and Sakura backed him up agai by voting me.

Based on the above it's more likely than not that Thor and Sakura are on the same team.

- Sakura defended Anti by first saying she thought he was town based on his scumread of Varsoon, then she switched to conf town, in a game where he might be on the opposite scumteam or a third party so the only players you have a vested interest in townreading when they are under pressure are your mstes, and tried to pull me off that read as hard as she could.

- Sakura Anti and Thor were a strong part of the probably bad Varsoon push.

- The interaction between Anti and Thor, and Anti's posts after getting called out are very awkward.

Based on the above it's likely Anti is scum.

As for Sakura not covering her back, why would she, she was in a good position and fairly in control of the game, if she didn't get unlucky by picking on Varsoon the vig/SK she was not getting lynched anytime soon, in her position I would also spend some towncred shielding a teammate getting some flak, so that is not a valid argument in my eyes.

[copper223]

The Otolia push also looks good to me, but I like the other two more and Anti in particular

VOTE: Antihero

[copper223]

I don't understand your 943 read much so can't really help there, trying to read 2-3 levels deep is in general pretty iffy for me, as in I often get it wrong when I try to do so.

[copper223]

I on the other hand find it typical of Antihero scum, I think he doesn't like to push on players when he is scum, so in order to convince himself he has to he gets himself pumped/angry enough in order not to care so that his accusations look overemphatic/hot blooded as you called it, check out his push on davesaz D1 in the c9++ game we played together, he seemed to get so uspet when the rest of us were not so gang ho about the lynch he was pushing that the other head of the hydra had to come in and tell him to calm down, because he was getting called out for how hard he was going on the guy.

[copper223]

i've played with anti even more and trust me he feels town as hell.

The difference between my read and this is I give him the information I used to make up my mind so that he can decide himself if he agrees or disagrees with my conclusions.

[copper223]

@Anti
That was never in question, the point of contention is he is giving a read without explaining it so it's useless.

So, based on the above, you now think I am misguided town?

[copper223]

oh yeah, i forgot corpse bride and winter

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59668 corpse bride
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60070 winter

you're using one scum game and exactly zero town games to extrapolate that me doing caps and pushing less than popular candidates is a scumtell

that's demonstrably not the case.

My case on you is the previous post to the one you are trying to disprove and it's based on the way you pushed Varsoon yesterday, the way Sakura tried to push me off of my scum read of you and the mysterious confirmed town read she gave when some momentum was gathering behind your wagon.

[copper223]

@Anti
You started with:

There is no Hated in normal setups because the nrg has a stick up it's ass and it would never allow it, so Varsoo

lied so he must be mafia

, let's vote and lynch.

Then after I in particular pointed out that I was reading it as a fakeclaim as well but it could have been a town panic attack and after the wagon stalls you jump off of it using the same logic.

But after it picks up again thanks to Thor and Sakura you get back onto it.

Those transitions don't look natural to me, especially if as you claimed you thought I was scum when I was about to replace out, which means you would have been more likely to discount my take on the Varsoon claim.

[copper223]

the argument is pretty simple

varsoon claims hated --> hated isn't a normal role --> varsoon lied --> varsoon's lied BECAUSE he's scum

i backed out because of the arrow between the 3rd and 4th links. i've played w/ scum varsoon and town varsoon before and lying about being hated is something i could conceivably see him doing as town and actually admitting to lying is something that i really don't see him doing as scum. i wouldn't put it COMPLETELY beyond the pale, but there's reasonable doubts now.

it wasn't just a little bitty thing that i was nitpicking at. it goes to the core of varsoon's alignment. lying about a role claim isn't just something you ignore and setup spec is part of how i scumhunt and part of what i do simply because i've run and reviewed so many games.

Well if anything I flatter your ability when your argument is I should just consider you bad at this if you are town (to reply in kind), why would you have a scumread on me after I say I think Varsoon is fakeclaiming as town, something you believe is possible as of 549?

The two sentences you brought up about Thor and Gorkinton and which you did not bother to follow up on after I replied and asked you some quetsions about them, other than to nake vote me later on, were really not convincing.

[copper223]

The premise is you are pushing on what you believe to be easy mislynches.

- The first was Varsoon and you jumped onto him when he fakeclaimed, jumped off when the wagon stalled, jumped back up when it picked up again, this is an objective fact.

- The second was Pisskop, a player I was also scumreading before, so this is the second instance we read the game the same way, he was being scumread by quite a few players including Sakura, your likely teammate, your argument here was based on how his playstile was attacking you instead of your arguments, something I have seen both town and scum do, so once again it looks like a policy lynch masked behind a scumread.

- The third was calling my slot scum when you thought there was nobody there to reply to that read, as I said I find this significant because there were prior instances of the two of us appearing to be reading the game the same way, something that usually leads to a townread. When pressed your case on me was a joke, you did not bother to reply to me after I replied to it, proceeded to lurk for the rest of the day or post nonsense like that post to Pisskop or nake voting me.

[copper223]

Ah yes, you also joined that joke lynch on flames.

[copper223]

you seem to think i'm following you a lot more closely than i actually am

you're also building your argument from the starting point that i'm scum and going in circles

So you naked voted me but were not following me closely? That's very townie of you, not, it looks as if "gasp" you don't need to make sure of my alignment because that's not the main objective for you.

[copper223]

Pisskop, good place to start looking for scum, what you've tried to do with choof is keep both alignments on the table instead of giving your opinion about which one is more likely and I am not a fan.

VOTE: Pisskop

[copper223]

"make sure of your alignment"??????????

lol?

I usually try to be as certain as possible that I am right on my scumreads when I am town, which means interacting with them, I don't just push on players when their slot is absent, reply with 2 sentences when they ask what the case on them was, then not bother to reply, nake vote them only to say after I was not following in them closely

[copper223]

Everyone is the same in this, you can't decide how to vote if you don't interact with someone or you quote some other interactions between 2 playerse you also found indicative as your reason, you can't convince the rest of us to vote for that player either if you don't talk about it so your vote would just sit there and be useless to boot, the fact you have played this game long enough means I can assume you have learnt this basic principle, without needing a mirror.

[copper223]

Congratz, I don't think you are likely scum anymore.

VOTE: Otolia

[copper223]

Looks like you are overthinking it Pisskop.

- Thor pushed for a flash wagon and Sakura immediately backed him up with her fake reaction test.

- Thor built a case out of thin air based on his interpretation of how you are supposed to cite meta in a post which was different from how I used it and Sakura backed him up agai by voting me.

Based on the above it's more likely than not that Thor and Sakura are on the same team.

- Sakura defended Anti by first saying she thought he was town based on his scumread of Varsoon, then she switched to conf town, in a game where he might be on the opposite scumteam or a third party so the only players you have a vested interest in townreading when they are under pressure are your mstes, and tried to pull me off that read as hard as she could.

- Sakura Anti and Thor were a strong part of the probably bad Varsoon push.

- The interaction between Anti and Thor, and Anti's posts after getting called out are very awkward.

Based on the above it's likely Anti is scum.

As for Sakura not covering her back, why would she, she was in a good position and fairly in control of the game, if she didn't get unlucky by picking on Varsoon the vig/SK she was not getting lynched anytime soon, in her position I would also spend some towncred shielding a teammate getting some flak, so that is not a valid argument in my eyes.

What is damning about this post Droog?

[copper223]

not to mention the jump between
"sakura would know there are two scumteams"
and
"

sakura would never defend anyone unless they were a buddy

"

You are making the assumption for me by deleting the word

might

from my sentence about sakura and her knowledge as scum, and deleting

would only have a vested interest in defending

from the bolded so you have sone explaining to do as far as I am concerned.

What I did was ask myself, why would Sakura call Anti obvious town when it is very likely that even as scum you don't have that information, my conclusion was that the most likely reason was she had a vested interest in calling him such because they are partners and it looked like a wagon was getting started, Anti claims his town/scum meta is skewed enough that she is supposed to say that when playing with him else that would be suspicious for her, I think that's possible but not part of my information set when I thought and wrote about it in the post, it's stil an iffy connection between the two.

I am suspicious of Thor because of the support and possible "teamwork" that I see during the Varsoon push between him and Sakura, not because he pushed the first wagon per se, in fact at the time I joined that wagon and was fine with it, so that's another misunderstanding or misrep from you.

[copper223]

@Droog
Precisely because she likely couldn't possibly know if he is obv. town I found that read suspicious, particularly because her level of certainty kept on increasing the more Anti was focused on, she also gave what I now suspect to be a BS read about Anti being frustrated with Varsoon, something I did not see when reviewing his ISO, which I also find a pretty risky thing to di.

She started saying Anti was likely town because of his Varsoon case, then after I made my case on him she said she stood by her initial read that he is likely town, then after Anti got some more flak she came out with the obv. town statement and finally appeared to be trying to convince me about him being town, all this is fishy, it is slightly less indicative if it's true that Anti is an easy townread for her so she was white knighting there, I did not have that information at the time and Anti looks like anything but confirmed to me so I did not think spending scum capital defending him was a worthwhile strategy, if many however can read him as town then doing it for the towncred is a possibility.

[copper223]

Still working on Sakura's ISO, I need more meta about her to see if she is more likely to buss, ignore or townread her buddies to make proper deductions, luckily some of my other games are winding down so I should be able to give this the proper attention becore team mafia.

[copper223]

Still working on Sakura's ISO, I need more meta about her to see if she is more likely to buss, ignore or townread her buddies to make proper deductions, luckily some of my other games are winding down so I should be able to give this the proper attention becore team mafia.

she never wants to bus. iirc one large theme game from a scum QT (i can hunt it later) she rather try to go flawless then bus

Sounds a bit like me, good info, am I finally playing with town Ika?

[copper223]

There is something off with Thor this game, he admits that it's questionable to focus on Elusive while voting someone else and is spending way too much time replying to accusations and justifying his play, the last time he played town with me and he was pressured he just called his wagon stupid and went on pushing the lynch he wanted.

@Fuzzy
You said Sakura is more likely to ignore her buddies but your associative scumreads are mostly the people she explicitly townred, did you change your mind and if so why?

@Ika
I think the most likely scenario is a multiball 3-3-1, that is conditional on mnemonic flipping scum and being on the opposite team from sakura, it's likely there is at least 1 third party just statistically, I have no evidence of that nor do I bother to look for them at this stage, Varsoon might be SK but I'd say it's 75-25 he is town.

[copper223]

I want to say that statistically speaking it's more likely to be SK & mafia.
Chances of 2/3 mafia off the same team dying out of 19 players in a single night is pretty unlikely, no?

That's true but Otalia looked scummy to me, mnemonic not as much, so I want to figure out if Sakura was playing like a multiball (trying to lynch the other scumteam) or like a single mafia (trying to mislynch town), cause that has relevance in regards to the players she was collaborating with and townreading.

[copper223]

Literally the only thing I did that is remotely questionable is keep my vote on Anti while *also* (continuing) calling Elusive scummy.

So the only way that is questionable is if there are multiple scum teams and Elusive and I are both scum and on different teams - because other than that Oka's point actually doesn't make any sense.

[copper223]

Oka's comment makes a lot of sense to me, if you're voting Anti this means he is your top scumread, your focus should also reflect that, the fact that you were instead spending all your time questioning and replying to Elusive is weird, and it's not scummy only in the situation you describe, it's also scum indicative if you are soft bussing anti.

[copper223]

UNVOTE:
Ok that is questionable.

[copper223]

I was not expecting Mnemonic to blatantly misquote the votes, still why would he do that as scum, it's the easiest lie to check ever... from the exchange I think Oka is town though.

[copper223]

VOTE: Antihero
I don't see the scumread on Seohyun either and after our little discussion he went back to lurking unless needled by Thor.

[copper223]

So btw all, the VC apparently don't include a majority of the votes that actually happened. I guess that analysis was useless.

So if I were to use VC's only I would get your list?

[copper223]

The last time I played with droog he bussed Boon, who flipped scum D1, and his other partner, looked really town to me until comradekafka, randomly from my pov, checked him N1 and came out with a guilty D2, at which point scum got completly wrecked.

So I think droog is kind of insane with the way he plays mafia, but he doesn't appear to be more informed than the average joe here and while in the other game he strived for towncred and control, to the detriment of his teammates, the fact he is not budging from his bad read of me and is being marginalized because of it makes me think he might be town. And yes Thor, this is not a meta argument as you classify it, you would call it a gut read.

[copper223]

I think if he hadn't pushed you we would have gone for Flub.

[copper223]

But if you have played with scum_droog a lot and he played very different that game I am all ears.

[copper223]

Thor is definitely right about momentum in this game though, a lot of the playerlist seems to have been burned out by the early flurry and is not posting or scumhunting, I want to hear from Elusive and Antihero in particular.

[copper223]

I don't know that scum encouraged the flurry as much as Sakura did, it depends a lot on what Thor, Anti and NS are to be able to generalize like that and guess about it.

with only Sakura's and FF's flips I think she was either establishing her credentials as an active scumhunter and playing the long game or my initial suspicion about this being a multiball and Sakura having a vested interest in scumhunting the other faction are behind that behavior.

In any case a silent thread is a scum thread so Thor pushing for activity and meaningful votes, when basically he and TFL were the only really active players, is playing pro-town.

[copper223]

@Anti
Why do you think Seohyun is scum?

[copper223]

@Anti
Why do you think Seohyun is scum?

[copper223]

@Marquis
After that readlist I think you are town Marquis, so please go read the nulls again and tell me what you think of them.

@All
I was reading a recent Thor game because of another meta read I was doing on Bellaphant and being a discussion driver, which is pro-town in general, is not a town-tell for Thor.

[copper223]

@Marquis
The reason why that readlist is more likely to come from town is that it looks purely your own and you indirectly take position on everything that has happened in an original way, you like Anti as town and have Thor leaving scum, but you have copper and Varsoon as town, but then you have TFL and Elusive as leaning scum... there is no common ground with the vote blocks and opinions that are emerging so I see little reason for you to have those reads as scum.

Too bad you are also a lazy sod if you are town.

[copper223]

@Marquis
Ok, Antihero did not have a problem sassing when he thought or knew I was wrong about a read in jk9++ as scum, and I don't really know what would have happened if TTH hadn't been playing with him, but what you are saying does lend credence to what Anti said about that game being an exception and I think your defense of him is pretty townie, I also agree with the rest of the townreads you gave other than his so I'll re-evaluate

UNVOTE:

I don't know why you are reading TFL so low though, he looks pretty town to me.

[copper223]

I'd lynch Zzzx for that sheep on the Anti vote because "his ISO is even worse than mine", that's like an amished tell on yourself if you forget about this game and then come back and look at it a few days later.

@Seohyun
Unfortunately I am short for time so I can't check for myself, what's the difference in the vote counts from what mnemonic said?

[copper223]

VOTE: NS
You are waffling and should really post your thoughts if you are town, initially I thought it unlikely for you to be scum cause who builds a case based on puppies as scum, that leaves you so exposed no? But thinking about it, it's also a clever defence, the usual too scummy to be scum read I often see, and TFL gives good pointers as to why he thinks you are scum and from my pov. based on the choof read and most of TFL's posts this is a town driven lynch (I dislike TFL keep on saying he will get lynched if he is wrong, as if the rest of us here don't understand town can and often does push on town because of being genuinely misguided, but I don't think that's alignment indicative and more of a personality trait, I did find his read switch on the Sakura/Anti ibteraction kinda scummy though so if you wanted to show me "how bad at town you are" mission accomplished with that post).

[copper223]

Please do not talk about ongoing games.

[copper223]

I hope Marquis isn't wrong in his defence of Anti. because he can be very confident about bad reads.

[copper223]

Boon is being honest about coasting everywhere, but this might still be scum Boon.

I find it a bit BM to lynch a guy that is V/LA for personal reasons but he was coasting before he announced that and with my new job starting today I don't have the time to do the analysis required to re-evaluate.

[copper223]

You are reacting in a very self conscious way Boon, and what's up with the laugh at the end of all your posts, looks like overdoing the VT act to me, if some of you think NS might just be afk town Boon is a good alternative.

[copper223]

I see what you mean about NS lurking here specifically TFL, I want him lynched as well now.

[copper223]

@FTL
I don't have a good read of him yet, I was leaning more scum earlier and more town now.

[copper223]

The players voting TFL need to consolidate, I prefer a NS lynch but I'll hammer Thor.

[copper223]

I don't see a reason why we shouldn't be lynching NS.

[copper223]

Rub some dirt on it.

Cheeky scum, I like it but I am still going to try and get you lynched.

[copper223]

@ZZZX
Unless you live in a 600 acre mansion you need to take care of, that is akin to a kid coming to school and telling his teacher the milkman stole his homework because he left his backpack outside.

[copper223]

@NS
How are we supposed to read it as apathy instead of being lurky as scum? Not posting is good for you as scum and bad as town, assuming you are playing to your wincon, which you said you would do, that is alignment indicative. There is also a jarring difference between D1 NS posting puppies to get Flames lynched and this poster.

[copper223]

Do you think Thor is scum?

[copper223]

VOTE: Thor

[copper223]

Ika Droog and Flub should all be lynched, starting to suspect this is two town wagons unfortunately, of the two Thor is the better one to keep around.

VOTE: NS

[copper223]

I'd be super down for a ZZZX flash.

[copper223]

I think Seohyun nailed him with the opportunistic vote switch on Anti he mentions and it's the same thing I noticed, also it's likely that: "his ISO is even worse than mine" plus a vote after that is something scum will say.

[copper223]

Still not so sold on Antihero town btw.

[copper223]

Thor is not clear just cause you JKed him, if that's what you did, I am surprised by this cause the way NS refused to scumread Thor made me think they were likely the same alignment.

[copper223]

This is me saying that we still shouldn't lynch pisskop and copper today or tomorrow for that matter.
All things considered.

pisskop, yes
copper, ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

i'll agree not today but he's a name floating around my head for sk

since you can't scumread me now based on play this is what you come up with? If you are town this game you are getting carried so hard this game it's not even funny. I still think Antihero and Thor should be vig. shot or lynched before we get close to lylo situations.

@All
The CW's from yesterday tell a story, especially the three players that vote parked on TFL I find fishy, those bring Droog, Flubber and Ika, as they were voting the main pusher behind the NS lynch, at least one of those three is very likely scum.

Based on having played with scum Ika this didn't feel like the same play, I know that Flub.'s activity was low at the time so he might conceivably not have been there to change his vote, hence:

VOTE: Droog

[copper223]

Another reason to kill Oka Poka independent from Antihero's haze induced fantasies is mnemonic device is scum, so that's a good player to check out as well.

[copper223]

Your predecessor you mean? I had an early townread on both that got weaker with time, house though I don't think replaces out easily as scum, when he played with me he as scum he tried really hard to control the game and was super active and motivated, Ika was reading the game the same way as me wrt Thor but he vote parked on TFL who was lynching scum NS so that doesn't look good. All in all I am still leaning town here.

Important things to do is ISO Sakura and make up your mind on her interactions and look at the wagons at the rnd of yesterday.

[copper223]

@Thor
What's your point re NS voting you? His whole posting screams: I am doing this just because it's either you or me, which can still easily be indicative of a teammate.

[copper223]

@TFL
I am not touching players confirmed by Gork cause he called my alignment correctly, what do you think of your wagon yesterday?

[copper223]

@TFL
I am not touching players confirmed by Gork cause he called my alignment correctly, what do you think of your wagon yesterday?

[copper223]

Sorry, dumb internet connection lag.

[copper223]

It's not impossible but I can see the town motivation for what Gork did whereas the scum motivation is less clear to me, he can't stick around much longer without starting to get heat and if he townreads some of his teammates he is providing us a clear way ahead, otherwise he has to give up a townread or call someone from another team town.p depending on the setup.

Your CW was not just a vote park to avoid NS, it was also an oblique way to discredit your push without defending NS and that looks questionable to me, other than the players on your wagon I'd lynch device as well because he is likely to be scum if this is multiball due to Otalia's interactions and Oka's kill points to him.

I don't think what Anti said about the setups is scum indicative, I have a problem with his Sakura interaction, NS was a buddy of hers like him and lo and behold he flipped scum, I still remember how hard Sakura tried to push me off Anti making up his supposed frustration about Varsoon.

[copper223]

I hammered a guy on purpose D1 in another game because of the kind of tell you are apparently trying to use so no.

[copper223]

@Thor
I find NS's defence strange and one possible explaination for not wanting to push his CW beyond a token vote for what he said was survival, and I believe he was being honest there, is that you are teammates. Your reply that he was voting you while not scumreading you doesn't address that issue in any way so that if anything is noise. Together with your Sakura interactions and your early game reads on choof, Elusive and myself, all players I know/think are town, you are more likely scum than not.

[copper223]

I also like the case on device from Gork.

[copper223]

It bothers me I am not a hero of justice, as I personal struck down the vile Sakura.

Not fakeclaiming twice would help in that regard for future games, it is also unclear to me wtf scum is doing by letting every soft town PR live, makes me think scum left is in Droog/Boon/ZZZX.

[copper223]

@Gork
Sure, he can also be scum for the Oka kill and the vote switch on NS, but that pet theory assumes scum is disinterested in this game which would not include MD as he mounted a decent defence after replacing in.

[copper223]

Do you think anything he's said prior to NS wagon taking off has indicated that he has any kind of interest in this game?

Yes the incorrect vote summary he made based on the mod's posting showed he tried to either appear town by presenting some info or to genuinely dismantle the case on his slot.

I agree that his play later on is pretty scummy, at the very least the vote switch on NS is questionable and I want to know what his reply to your case is.

[copper223]

VOTE: MD
Fair enough, I still think Droog is also likely scum.

[copper223]

@Muffin
Agreed, but Gork's case on MD is independent of that assumption and still has a lot of merit.