New York 182 - Game Over

[Gorkington]

I find his questions unlike what his playstyle as town would be from my personal experiance... they feel too lacking tbh

Can you pull examples of what you feel are good examples of this?

[ZZZX]

Will do that later tonight(after i finish stuff i need to do)

[Thor665]

That's usually the point where you hop off the fence and offer your own thoughts though. You kind of hedge this debate the whole way through.

Point being, I think elusive is scummy

Yeah, totally hedging my read on her and not just explaining why I'm not hard scumreading her vs somewhat scumreading her. If I can see a potential town mindset behind something someone is doing, then I'm not going to scumread them as hard as someone doing something that I simply can't imagine town doing. I can imagine townElusive playing like this. Thus her scummy behavior isn't as clearly coming from a scumslot as you keep saying it is, at least from my POV.

Oh, come on now, the sentence you quoted was followed by a "but" and even in this answer you're sitting on a fence.

Yeah because bad play is never caused by bad play and is always just because scum, right? If she was skimming [which you've agreed with was the case]/seems like she isn't super committed into the game then why are you so damn sure that she didn't just make a mistake?

Hold up now - I agreed that she skimmed *my iso to pull up quotes*
I did not say she was skimming the entire game, nor do I think that if she was it somehow justifies her stated belief as regards me.
Do you? How does that work if so? If not - what is the point of this?

I really don't get how you can't see how you find it so improbable that she might have just skimmed her quotes and forgot she asked you questions about choof.

I absolutely see no reason to believe that - literally her conversation with me was 90% of her input into this game.
Feel free to call me wrong on that and back it up, but it is ILLOGICAL to think that, in my opinion, unless your theory is that she has the memory of a goldfish or something.
I think she was even citing that conversation with me *while calling me scummy for having it* so, no, she knew what she was saying in that regard.
Why do you think she maybe doesn't?

You think I shouldn't be hesitant when I find your thoughts on her to be a little too directed and strong for what she's actually done? If I feel like someone's case on someone could be opportunistic scum trying to push me in a Smurfy direction I'm going to be a little more wary.

Being hesitent is worlds different from calling my case "semantics based".
Feel free to pick one and clarify which you believe. I feel like you're changing the tone and form of your answer here.

Bad play is not inherently scummy. You've been playing on this site for longer than I have. I don't know how you can pretend that people can't be illogical/make huge Smurf-ups and not be town.

You already had me happily admitting that I don't see them as likely partners and even have a belief that one is likely town.
That does not overrule the concept that a stated bad play *plus* an immediate sheep on it is sketchy.
Town are, in my opinion, more likely to analyze an attack.
Scuma re more likely to see an easy attack.
I think play on this site fully and easily supports this belief and, if you really want, can assuredly show me as town using this method and can more than likely show me being correct using it as well. So don't throw empty commentary about what I do or don't believe in my face unless you can back up my supposed beliefs.
This is a valid thought process.

.so make this answer look good.

I will rather truthfully give my thoughts as i think they are. you know I am that kind of player that will say his un-filtered thoughts even if they might seem scummy just because its his policy.

Awesome.

So...feel free to use your unfiltered thoughts to...y'know...answer the question now?
Or are you dodging it? You can, just let me know that's what you're doing.
But I'd like you to answer the question.

[Thor665]

but I have never seen thor not hunting with extreme logical edge as town.

What are your thoughts on my two primary cases currently?

I can see some logic but I am not that convinced tbh. Usually your cases will feel more clear/direct I guess?

Okay.

What feels indirect about the cases? One is "she's a liar - here's why" and the other is "he's Sakura's buddy, here's why" and I sort of felt they were both very direct.
What is indirect about them?

Hint: starting to suggest you are making stuff up at this point...so make this answer look good.

To save time.
Here is the question you dodged.

@ZZZX

[ZZZX]

Awesome.

So...feel free to use your unfiltered thoughts to...y'know...answer the question now?
Or are you dodging it? You can, just let me know that's what you're doing.
But I'd like you to answer the question.

after my post i said i will reply to everything later, is that fine?

[Thor665]

I had taken that as a reply to Gork, and hadn't realized you need to reassess why my cases lack clarity - since you're voting me over it, I sort of thought you'd already figured that out.

But, sure, take as much time as you need. Just keep me updated and expect me to mock your case and find you scummy until you manage it.

[Thor665]

Honestly, looking at the time/date stamps - I am of the mind that you're lying to me, to be frank.

[Gorkington]

Oh, come on now, the sentence you quoted was followed by a "but" and even in this answer you're sitting on a fence.

Please elaborate on how I'm sitting on a fence when I literally explicitly say with real life words in the true timeline of this universe that elusive is a scumread of mine that I'm just not incredibly confident in.
Do you really think my reasoning here is just defending her and not me trying to express why it isn't a read that I'm confident in/me trying to engage you to figure out why your read on her is so much more confident than mine?

Hold up now - I agreed that she skimmed *my iso to pull up quotes*
I did not say she was skimming the entire game, nor do I think that if she was it somehow justifies her stated belief as regards me.
Do you? How does that work if so? If not - what is the point of this?

Do you think her play thus far indicates that she's super invested into this game? I'm under the impression that she's in a few right now and I'm also under the impression that we're not seeing elusive's strongest performance levels atm.

I absolutely see no reason to believe that - literally her conversation with me was 90% of her input into this game.
Feel free to call me wrong on that and back it up, but it is ILLOGICAL to think that, in my opinion, unless your theory is that she has the memory of a goldfish or something.
I think she was even citing that conversation with me *while calling me scummy for having it* so, no, she knew what she was saying in that regard.
Why do you think she maybe doesn't?

Again, it's based on what I feel is her level of commitment in the game and based on how many games I feel like she's playing in. I just perceive that regardless of what her alignment is, she's not invested.

Being hesitent is worlds different from calling my case "semantics based".
Feel free to pick one and clarify which you believe. I feel like you're changing the tone and form of your answer here.

You're right. I'm trying to put into words exactly what's bothering me about you and I think calling my worries semantics based was probably unfair, however I still don't feel entirely solid about you/your confidence level as a whole. My reads feel super weak right now, so for you to look at me and call me illogical for not having a strong opinion on someone who I find hard to read just feels off to me.

You already had me happily admitting that I don't see them as likely partners and even have a belief that one is likely town.
That does not overrule the concept that a stated bad play *plus* an immediate sheep on it is sketchy.
Town are, in my opinion, more likely to analyze an attack.

Scuma re more likely to see an easy attack.I think play on this site fully and easily supports this belief and, if you really want, can assuredly show me as town using this method and can more than likely show me being correct using it as well. So don't throw empty commentary about what I do or don't believe in my face unless you can back up my supposed beliefs.
This is a valid thought process.

Firstly, this is a long journey from:

though I can accept one insane person - two strikes me as likely containing scum, yeah?

Which looks a lot more to me like you're saying "illogical/bad play is inherently scummy!" and I get super wary of whenever anyone uses that as an argument.
Also, I really disagree that scum are going to be making easy attacks right now.
Honestly my head kind of hurts trying to fully explain my thoughts right now/tracing all of the points you're talking about here and I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable or just being stupid here so I kind of want to take a step back and read over everything you're saying again.

[Thor665]

Please elaborate on how I'm sitting on a fence when I literally explicitly say with real life words in the true timeline of this universe that elusive is a scumread of mine that I'm just not incredibly confident in.

Define "incredibly confident"?
Because currently all I see is you saying "I find her scummy...but this is town, and that might be town, and this would make her town"
Which, to my mind, is *not* finding her scummy at all.

Do you think her play thus far indicates that she's super invested into this game?

Define super invested?
She certainly is posting more than many and also has had emotional flare ups (real or faked - either way they imply investment). I see no reason to suggest she's not invested.

Again, it's based on what I feel is her level of commitment in the game and based on how many games I feel like she's playing in. I just perceive that regardless of what her alignment is, she's not invested.

Yeah...but...greater than 50% of her posts were about that one thing - and your argument is based on the idea that she just randomly forgot it.
That is crazy talk. You sound crazy to me right now.
Have you read her iso?

My reads feel super weak right now, so for you to look at me and call me illogical for not having a strong opinion on someone who I find hard to read just feels off to me.

Logic is a parameter free from confidence.
They are not actually connected.
Why do you think they are?

Firstly, this is a long journey from:

though I can accept one insane person - two strikes me as likely containing scum, yeah?

Which looks a lot more to me like you're saying "illogical/bad play is inherently scummy!" and I get super wary of whenever anyone uses that as an argument.

Firstly, that is *not* a long way. If you even note, my phrase includes the wording "likely". Meaning I am not selling it as an absolute, I am selling it as a greater than 50% random chance.
Which falls perfectly in line with everything else I've said on the subject, and also contains awareness that bad play also contains town - which is what you suggested I was ignoring.

Also, I really disagree that scum are going to be making easy attacks right now.

Why?

Honestly my head kind of hurts trying to fully explain my thoughts right now/tracing all of the points you're talking about here and I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable or just being stupid here so I kind of want to take a step back and read over everything you're saying again.

I actually do that more than you might think, because I often find my words funny.
That said - as far as I can tell, my thoughts are fairly straightforward and also lack any hypocrisy or contradictions. And at that point it's back on you to either ask for clarification of points you fail to understand, or to address your own thoughts (which you are openly admitting as muddled). Me re-reading things I believe and also think I presented clearly is not going to help you de-muddle. I do not feel muddled. I don't need to de-muddle. You feel muddled. You need to de-muddle. Maybe you should re-read me? Maybe you should ask me about something that confuses you prior to answering it, if it confuses you enough to leave you muddled you probably shouldn't answer it randomly.

I don't get this.

[Thor665]

You also never had a "secondly" - that makes me sad.

[ZZZX]

I had taken that as a reply to Gork, and hadn't realized you need to reassess why my cases lack clarity - since you're voting me over it, I sort of thought you'd already figured that out.

But, sure, take as much time as you need. Just keep me updated and expect me to mock your case and find you scummy until you manage it.

Honestly, looking at the time/date stamps - I am of the mind that you're lying to me, to be frank.

I will be frank with you. I read your posts and jsut found them as i told you. if you want an indepth analysis of them you need to wait. I understand that you find me lying.

on another note I am lazy enough to actually just sit here and do nothing

[Gorkington]

I'm going to reply to this and then go to school and not look at mafia for a bit to hopefully clear my head, but the firstly was intended to be followed by more things and then I just kind of went "fuck it all I give up for now". c:

[Antihero]

If you're unwilling to hop on the otalia wagon you guys could see where a fuzzy wagon goes

mmmm.... i don't know

i could do thor

[Thor665]

Well duh - you're voting for me.

[ZZZX]

Well duh - you're voting for me.

I dont think my vote will hurt you that much imho. and i dont feel keeping it there a little more will hurt will it?

[Flubbernugget]

Hey thor how is having no scum reads town?

How is tunneling on varsoon town?

How is mnemonic's reads list town?

Why is the otalia slot allowed to be fucktons more incompetent than your scumread elusive

and still be fucking town?

[Thor665]

Well duh - you're voting for me.

I dont think my vote will hurt you that much imho. and i dont feel keeping it there a little more will hurt will it?

I was talking to Anti, not you.
He was announcing he would be down with voting me...as though there was doubt.
I agree - I don't think keeping your vote on me will hurt me. Indeed, I feel it strengthens my case on you, at the moment.

Hey thor how is having no scum reads town?

How is tunneling on varsoon town?

How is mnemonic's reads list town?

Why is the otalia slot allowed to be Smurftons more incompetent than your scumread elusive

and still be Smurfing town?

1. I agree it is not particularly pro-town, but it is hardly proof of pro-scum play either. I have been town with no town reads - has that never happened to you?

2. How is it scummy? I submit it is neutral. Hell, yesterday *I* tunneled on Varsoon - so, do you think I'm scum too?

3. How is it scummy?

4. I have not called Elusive scum for being incompetent. I have also not called Mneumonic, nor Otolia, town. I have asked for the case on them...I am generally being met with empty rhetoric. Which...eh, is a thing - but I'm not sure if people honestly expect it to convince me when I'm sitting on multiple scumspects with cases I can actually describe.

[droog]

What is with
All this angst
On Thors slot

His questions look pretty good to me

[Thor665]

What is with
All this angst
On Thors slot

His questions look pretty good to me

Speaking of my pretty good questions;

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6700460

I'm going to go beat my head against a wall now.
Then later I'll be back and everyone can note how mean Thor is when he denigrates other people's play quality.

[Thor665]

This is why I have issues with Larges.
At least I'm honest about skipping stuff.
The rest of you should get on that train - y'know, just admit you're skipping stuff, and then use shocking language like "I missed that" or "I hadn't seen that" and then fething adjust your thoughts after seeing new info.
Y'know, crazy play like that?

Or don't iso anything, read anything, and then question people on stuff they're answering in the quotes you're quoting?

I'm fine with gut play - but, people, there is a difference between gut play, and loose play, and CRAP play.

[Thor665]

And if you get insulted about that - I submit you play so badly you should replace out. Because, y'know, vaguely following the game is part of the social contract of signing up to it.

[ika]

or maybe its just that we dont remeber it?

[Thor665]

If that is the case then you should say that (or, oddly, just go with the 'look it up' concept) as opposed to weighing in on it.
And if you discover you have a habit of remembering things wrong - work on that, double check yourself and don't spout off first.
It's the same principal.

[Gorkington]

Someone who isn't bad talk with Thor about elusive.

[Gorkington]

He wants someone good at the game to talk to about his thoughts on her.