New York 180 (Endgame)

[Shinobi]

So if we don't lynch either of those two players, who do we lynch?

I propose Kitz. It will be fun, if nothing else.

[Shinobi]

(I'm aware that feels don't make someone town but, with Kitz' life on the line, why not take a chance?)

[SilverWolf]

(I'm aware that feels don't make someone town but, with Kitz' life on the line, why not take a chance?)

What does this mean?

I don't get it.

I forget about Kitz sometimes and frankly, that worries me quite a bit when I forget about a person in a game.

[Shinobi]

"Feeling" that Ozgin and GM are town doesn't really mean a whole lot.

I'd be pressing the issue harder if I didn't have the opportunity to get people to lynch Kitz.

[Kitz]

Well, I'm a "newbie town", with no association with anyone here, riding on all sides except those that are brutally antitown, and lack the thing called "Meta".
If I'm to be guessed scum, all you can really guess is a neutral with no faction members.

Wolf, what's your actual read on Shinobi and Cheetory?

[goodmorning]

Your reads were bad then and they're bad now for the exact same reasons.

Well, the reasons can't be the same. My reads were bad then because I was trying not to lynch my partners. My reads are bad now because I'm bored and apathetic and I want to lynch TSO but don't have the fortitude to push it.

You're ignoring the fact that I called you out for it then and writing it off as meaningless when you know for a fact that it's not, which is mega scummy.

You have yet to explain why you think the situation is similar. I don't think it is, therefore there's nothing for me to answer and it's pretty fucking meaningless.

[Cheetory6]

Cheetory: 2542/2544 is AtE, 3903is more complaining now about game being boring, 4099 certain TSO is scum, 4113 and 4114 AtE, 4122-nobody cares AtE, 4124-it's all unfair AtE, 4188-MORE AtE, 4191-good lord the AtE is stiffling at this point, 4232-WTF? Suddenly TSO is NOT scum and FA looks good?, 4250-mockingly bad vote on FA

Can't really defend my state of mind all that much, but I just want to make it clear that a large part of the reason that I was upset was because my case on TSO was mainly based around his weird swing on ABR and some sketchiness with his explanations as to exactly what he was thinking on D3 and it felt like at the time TSO was trying to redirect attention in a way to discredit my case on him and that nobody was listening to what I was saying as a result of a manipulation by him and because I wasn't doing a good job of conveying how I was feeling at the time. I was also really convinced that him manipulating the argument like that was coming from a scumPOV.

It makes more sense to me now that he may have just felt like he'd properly addressed what I was saying given that I couldn't figure out an exact scum-motivation for why he would suddenly be okay with an ABR lynch. I also just kind of felt like the calm manner with which he was dealing with me being angry just seemed out of character for what I'd read in the scumgames I'd skimmed. So I'm trying to reread him without biasing myself just on those interactions and I feel like he's closer to a nullread at the moment where I just don't know how I feel about him/I just don't feel very confident at all on any kind of read on him.

As for my FA vote, I don't think it's fair of you/others to frame my vote on its own. Anyone reading my ISO can tell that he was my second strongest scumread before I voted for him and I obviously just liked the argument that TSO was making at the time for him being scum. I've been wrong a lot this game. I don't really understand why that necessarily makes me scummy.

Marquis' stance on me, and stances in general, are fluctuating bullshit. His read on FA_Q2 also kept going back and forth yesterday. His justification of this is "Well, you can't expect me to have static reads when I've only just replaced in." This is true. However, his reads on me are not simply "not static." They are ever-changing. There's never any reasoning for them, ever.

Isn't it kind of different to have a fluctuating read on a person and to have fluctuating reasons for scumreading someone? And if he doesn't have any reasoning for them, how can his reasoning for scumreading you constantly be changing? I'm just not really sure what you're saying here.

I just cannot see town Marquis doing that. Maybe if he was able to detail why his read on me and FA, in particular, went "town-scum-town-scum-tum-scown-town-scum", but I doubt he remembers those. I have no idea why he felt his thought process needed to be opaque this game - opaque thought processes are a bad idea 99% of the time. And he's not usually into super-opaqueness, at least now as town, from what I've seen of him.

Has Marquis's's read on you actually changed all that much? I'm under the impression he's just been scumreading you iirc?

Also,

@Marquis

, do you disagree with TSO's assessment of your general playstyle here?

I take it you aren't happy that I'm voting for you?

I'm just finding it hard to understand whether you're scum hiding under empty votes or town who literally just doesn't elaborate on anything ever q.q

Something about Marquis/Shinobi's really quick argument with almost no substance followed by an unvote just feels.. weird.

@Shinobi

, Wwhy did your read on Marquis go from MehIdunno/SCUM/probably town/maybe actually still scum over the course of like three pages? Why do you want to lynch Kitz?

Alright. I don't agree with oz, but Cheetory I see your reasoning behind. Kinda been wondering about him myself.

Why?

[T S O]

GM is town, I'm pretty sure of it.

GM is borderline not playing this game at all - I feel twitchy and uncomfortable about that. Make her do things.

[SilverWolf]

GM is town, I'm pretty sure of it.

GM is borderline not playing this game at all - I feel twitchy and uncomfortable about that. Make her do things.

It's possible she's having the same issue as a lot of us are and having trouble articulating her reads?

[T S O]

No, she is not "having trouble articulating her reads" - she is sticking the middle finger up to us and refusing to do so. There is a difference, you know.

[T S O]

I feel like I'm Thor here expecting a certain standard of play and being disappointed at the inevitable failure to deliver.

[T S O]

SilverWolf, can you summarise anything said you feel is alignment-relevant in your Neighbourhood to here? Ooba, if you think she misses anything, feel free to add it in.

[T S O]

I never thought I'd say it, but come back elusive, all is forgiven.

[SilverWolf]

SilverWolf, can you summarise anything said you feel is alignment-relevant in your Neighbourhood to here? Ooba, if you think she misses anything, feel free to add it in.

Well, it's 14 pages long and has over 330 posts in it so I'll re-look at everything again to refresh my memory. I was scumreading House in the beginning because he was so reserved and then started townreading him when he started engaging me, giving reads, building cases, etc. Ozgin has been doing the same thing which is why I think he's likely town.

I mean, I'll re-look again, but I sure don't see anything suspicious or I would of outed it here.

[Shinobi]

@Cheeto: What part of my read progression are you not getting? I've explained all of that already.
I've also explained that killing Kitz would be grand because she keeps calling me mafia for little to nothing, and it seems like she keeps coming up with excuses to scumread me. She's been on about lynching me since day 1 and hasn't really ever gotten to it nor has she had any interest in questioning me.

@GM: This post was my main issue with you, and you're doing it again. You've got a bunch of people fighting amongst themselves in your "would lynch" list and you're putting no effort into figuring out who it is

again

.

[Shinobi]

*Was my main issue then.

It doesn't even require meta to back up. It's scummy on it's own and the more you put off explaining your reads the worse it looks.

[Marquis]

busy week, will post sometime tomorrow

[Kitz]

I've also explained that killing Kitz would be grand because she keeps calling me mafia for little to nothing, and it seems like she keeps coming up with excuses to scumread me. She's been on about lynching me since day 1 and hasn't really ever gotten to it nor has she had any interest in questioning me.

The first one, what?
You're saying that it's better to kill me because I call you suspicious?
Okay. Lynch everyone else for also having an opinion.

The second one, half of those are constructive, and the half rest is poking you with a stick due to the gut feel.

The third, I didn't push a lynch on you.

So yeah, back to basics :
I first poked on you for having said to see no discrepancies with ABR.
Then later I decided to read you town, because I couldn't really find much...
Then I ISO'd you and TSO and found some weird rivalry, so I casually asked him a read of you.
And then I got a bit suspicious of some things I forgot, something about contex-of-eachothers or something, so you were on "potential scum" team list, but now the two others are dead, sooooo...
Then I called you on something, and mentioned that rivalry thingy.
And then you wrote that you're no longer townreading because of my big post which is a blatant rant.
I again casually mention that riv thingie.
Then I call out on you for your bad opinion with no third alternate.

Also, one of the times I poked you, I called you Shinoby just to subtly taunt you.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you were scum, and that some certain other's the scum mate, but really, the read is just solid.
There's no actual slip other than the neutral devil's-advocate multi-side behavior.

Here's my read on you : You're not endangered. You have biased opinions. You have selective reading. You're defending lynchbaits and scummy players in a very oddly neutral way. Because of my poking and suspecting of you, you're now passive-aggressive and semi-tunnel on me, with just that as a basis and none else.

Because I'm conflicted about you, I'll leave this vote here. You say I've been meaning to lynch you, but here's the thing : I have never voted on you, until now.
VOTE: Shinobi

[SilverWolf]

So dragon, I noticed once the pressure came off you, you haven't come back to post.

Aero-I still don't understand how you switched your vote when you were so set on dragon. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. At least give me a case on TSO. Is he aggressive as scum?

Kitz-your vote looks like a great big pile of OMGUS and you used that no fear of dying shit on me too and it's stupid. You have no idea who is safe and who isn't unless you are scum yourself.

GM-I would like you to at least try to explain your list of reads a little bit, I feel like you are not going to be lynched and you are using it to your advantage.

VOTE: Cheetory

I feel like your AtE this game has been out of proportion to what the game really calls for and I don't feel like you ever made a decent case on FA. Your interactions with TSO are bizarre at best. I think you haven't been looked at as much as some of the others and you need to be.

FoS: Kitz for your selective quoting of me earlier in the thread, picking out people you feel are safe which is ridiculous and basically being UTR for a good part of the game especially recently, your OMGUS of Shinobi, and your lack of committed opinions until now.

FoS: Dragon, for outing my neighborhood under pressure, slacking off in his play, not giving good reasons behind his votes, and disappearing when the pressure is off.

OK, Let's see if this breathes some life back into the game.

[SilverWolf]

Also, Ozgin please give us more opinions and answer my question in the hood please. I know you are extremely busy and I get that so just do what you can.

elusive-welcome back, I'd love to hear from you again

[Kitz]

your OMGUS of Shinobi

I don't see why it's OMGUS. Wouldn't that be Shinobi doing that in any case? I was the one poking after all.
Without votes of course, until now.

picking out people you feel are safe which is ridiculous

Then explain to me why Math out of all players that night was killed, and not one of you.
ABR gamethrew, and the way it was done - both scum and town would be too confused about Math, superlynch bait and we'd have to take credit on the ABR Flip.
Nope, just killed. Like if there was no better option?
That's what makes me on the edge about "safe players".
And here's the thing : ABR said that Math is scum for visiting someone, and towned Shin, while we didn't know the information was false yet - why Math and not Shin?

I hope you get my point.

and your lack of committed opinions until now.

I don't have a lack of options.

Also, there's still no wall-of-text-responding.

[SilverWolf]

I already told you everything in your wall of text is answered and Math was killed because Wake outed her as a venegful townie it the thread. Wake was very scummy which I also pointed out. There's also a doc in this setup which could of been saving people and/or a BP protection going on.

[SilverWolf]

I'd actually like someone who knows Shinobi better than me explain him if they can. His recent activity in the game looks o.k. to me and not scummy but before that I was pretty neutral on him. He's a hard read for me as is TSO. Both of those are very difficult reads for me.

[Kitz]

I already told you everything in your wall of text is answered and Math was killed because Wake outed her as a venegful townie it the thread. Wake was very scummy which I also pointed out. There's also a doc in this setup which could of been saving people and/or a BP protection going on.

You actually did answer everything? Hm, then I'm dumb and can't see that.

---

He flipped a Tracker, claimed that Math had visited someone who died.
So by that assumption, right off the bat we all, including scum, sees him as a liar? It wasn't a confirmed lie until Math herself was killed.

An absolute wasted opportunity by scum.
= Kill someone other than Math, get Math lynched, and hope that Math targets one that's town.
Beneficial for scum as they can avoid being voted at, rather than the risk of being voted and lynched.

Again discreditting Wake's "She's vengeful", since it's a loud opinion based on the perception of a player's behavior, which could be the cause of a gambit done by said player.
If I casually blurted out "I think Elusive is the one-shot vigilante", would everyone believe it and take that granted? And note, that example is completely random.

We also didn't know of a 2nd doctor, other than Scum if their kill was the one failing.

So that's the issue.

[SilverWolf]

Scum would not want Math to be lynched if she's vengeful. It was pretty obvious she wanted to be lynched for a reason and Jester isn't possible. I do agree it's weird she's the kill because she said she was BP with a post restriction but she also said she could screw them over if she is lynched and was begging for it.

I really don't know why she was killed. Trying to read too much into why scum do what they do is just chasing our tails and running in circles sometimes due to the WIFOM involved.