Open 591: C9++, The Lunatic Ayslum (Game Over: Town Win!)


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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:55 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

- This was a huge overreaction to what I said and the overly defensive vibe in this post is scummy.

In post 85, Marcrell wrote:This and his follow up are pure nonsense. One can assume that you didn't read your PM's fully if you didn't know to confirm in thread. He's either getting uber defensive at a perceived accusation or trying to create scum tells out of thin air.

Can you clarify what you're talking about here? Too many pronouns for my liking.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:03 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 121, Reubus Swagrid wrote:
What, if anything, do I take from his current ISO?

That he looks fairly town so far?

Collatz and Darklight are probably town.

There is also
at least
one scum in Random/Reubus.
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:10 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 144, Otolia wrote:Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

This vote is awful. Willing to lynch Otolia toDay.

In post 146, Reubus Swagrid wrote:
Unfornunately no, I'm new. I would definitely consider myself newbie, I've played a little outside MS. It would seem testing other people's reactions has earned me a few votes. *adding to reads ensue
UNVOTE: Collatz

Considering I haven't played all that many games my last game generally can't be a basis for how my next few games play out

I'm also willing to lynch Reubus.

These are my two front runners for toDay. I think there is a good chance that they're both scum.

CKD is also probably town.
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:26 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 154, Randomnamechange wrote:Marcrell is town.

I hope this is explained because I get the complete opposite vibe.

In post 158, Reubus Swagrid wrote:I explained that last time I was faced with a situation like this the person was actually town, though that’s 1 out of 2 games on MS I’ve completed, which isn’t enough for me to actually read him either way

I have a suspicion that some of the less posty players are more likely scum than CDK but we'll see

So the last time you was in that situation the player was town...how does that lead you to then vote for this player? I don't see the link.

You then also say 'it isn't enough for you to read him either way'
whilst actually using it as a reason
to not only read him; but vote him.

Wow. The sentence regarding lower posters being more likely to be scum (over your only scum-read) is just laughable. I hope you're the leading wagon.

Also, RC is probably town and I like his case on Marcrell. This game looks pretty easy so far.
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:50 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

- Can we not break the fucking game. I hate shit like this. I play Mafia to, you know, actually play.
- Random, can you show me specific examples of why you were town-reading Marcrell at the time you said you were town-reading him?

- Really like this post from RC. I will be highly annoyed, and highly surprised, if RC flips scum. My strongest town-read.

I pretty much agree with everything in this post. I would say I feel stronger than you do about Collatz being town, Otolia is very likely to be scum (you don't seem to provide a read on him?) and Reubus is very likely scum as well.

Mnumonics posting so far has been pure filler. PL waiting to happen.

In post 220, Randomnamechange wrote:@redcoyote im always like this day 1. Flips are like coffee for me. I need them to get going.
So are we doing the tier thing?

No, we're not.
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:50 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

OK. Caught up.

First;

VOTE: Otolia
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:55 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Second, reads;

Town


RC
Darklight
Collatz
CKD
Llama
Alchemist
Mnumonic
Random
Marcrell
Otolia
Reubus

Scum


I feel pretty good about RC, Collatz and Dark being town.

I also feel pretty good about Otolia and Reubus being scum.
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:16 am

Post by Marcrell »

In post 225, BlueBloodedToffee wrote: - This was a huge overreaction to what I said and the overly defensive vibe in this post is scummy.

In post 85, Marcrell wrote:This and his follow up are pure nonsense. One can assume that you didn't read your PM's fully if you didn't know to confirm in thread. He's either getting uber defensive at a perceived accusation or trying to create scum tells out of thin air.

Can you clarify what you're talking about here? Too many pronouns for my liking.

Alright. If you were a player, you would assume you didn't confirm in thread because you misread the PM. Otolia stated this. Then you started accusing him of speaking for you. I think it's a logical conclusion, not him sticking words in your mouth. So I said you were either A. Getting overly defensive or B. Making up scum tells.
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:00 am

Post by Lucky2u »

In post 229, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:204 - Can we not break the fucking game. I hate shit like this. I play Mafia to, you know, actually play.


I don't think this is breaking the game to do. I think it is part of playing the game to do something like this.
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:42 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:40 am

Post by DarkLightA »

BBT, that was good.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:53 am

Post by Lucky2u »

In post 234, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Everyone is entitled to an opinion.


I didn't mean to imply you aren't but as I said, mine is different
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:11 am

Post by DarkLightA »

Re: RC's analysis of Marcrell:

I read through Marcrell's iso in response to RC's eagerness and came to a few similar conclusions.

In post 170, RedCoyote wrote:1) In post , he votes ckd because he doesn't "see" ckd's vote. Presumably this means he doesn't agree with the vote, but he doesn't take the time to explain why. Further, he abandons his "semi-serious" vote on Alchemist and has yet to address him since. Now, I disagree with his ckd vote on principle, but I'd be open to hearing his opinion as to why it's a better vote than the one on Alchemist (or voting someone else), but he doesn't give us that.

I found the RVS vote particularly strange. The random vote itself bore no indication of seriousness, but then this is pointed out in a subsequent post. That's weird. Voting because you don't see someone's point isn't good, but it was early in the game, barely out of RVS. Not a scumtell imo.

In post 170, RedCoyote wrote:2) I see a chainsaw defense of Otolia in post . Marcrell hasn't talked about Otolia at all this game, and yet he's coming to his defense in what he sees as BBT's nonsensical and defensive posturing. Additionally, this is the strongest he's come down on any player thus far, so it seems to me like this would be a better spot for his vote than ckd is. This speaks even more to the ckd vote not being genuine.

In post 202, Marcrell wrote:
2. I pointed out the post is completely bonkers. Makes no sense. Otalia made a logical guess. Blue starts freaking out. I pointed it out. Making no sense isn't a scum tell, it means one either has miscommunicated or your idea was crazy.

Did BBT start freaking out? In my eyes, he's saying that my argument was sensible. Otolia attacked me for questioning him, and he's telling Otolia that he sees the point. Marcrell is the one creating scumtells out of this air in this situation. I think is Marcrell's worst post so far in the game. What struck me more than what RC pointed out, at least when reading it initially, was his response to me in the post. I ask Collatz a question about why scum would change their vote like I did in RVS, and Marcrell steps in to answer this, of all questions. It seems to me like he is trying to "spread scuminess" by suggesting why it could potentially be done by scum.

In essence, I feel like his posts are dealing more with "pushing scuminess" onto people than "pulling scuminess" from the conversations and using that for reads. RC might have a point here.

I really don't like his recent post on Otolia. It came out of nowhere from previous positivity towards Otolia. I don't know what to make of it. I think if Otolia isn't scum then Marcrell will quite probably be. Can't rule out bussing or marcrell-town either though.
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:49 am

Post by Marcrell »

I had mostly skimmed because laziness. So then I made a post of detailed analysis of the current topic.

I'm not scum reading blue from his post, I was saying that it wasn't a scum tell from Otolia.

I've said this before. I vote Alchemist. He gives a reason. Dead topic to pursue then. So I vote elsewhere
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:07 am

Post by Collatz »

Mostly just a prod dodge.

UNVOTE: DarkLightA

I liked the way he questioned my actions and the way he has responed to the questions he has been asked by others. I'll post more later. Right now I'm going through everyone's ISO.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:52 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

So I think this game has centered around a few things to me

1) The policy lynch push on RM from CKD.

This is something that I immediately assign some town points to CKD for, simply due to how badly accepted they are in games, especially games with newer players. Its very rare to see it, and apart from one game where I did it as scum, am not sure I have seen scum push a policy lynch.

The responses from RM and Marcel are bad. RM seems to more deny that he is a policy lynch and attack back, which seems way too concerned that its actually going to catch on and try to defeat the argument instead of trying to show that he is not a policy lynch in this game. It reads of being overly concerned about image. Other stuff is going on but this is what he is concerned about, and even then just sheep onto the player who is getting flack without actually giving any reasoning.

Marcel just says "I don't see it" which apparently justifies a vote? What I don't understand here is that RM actually IS saying that what CKD is saying is true, but just not telling the whole story. He is just making a vote that to me suggests that he is not actually reading what was linked, and if he isn't understanding it, is not even trying to understand it just dismissing it and for some reason calling CKD scum. Later when pressed on it he falls back to just saying he doesn't like policy lynches, which is ironic since he is basically pushing a CKD lynch on policy of CKD pushing policy lynch. (Im actually reading Marcel as FAR more scummy today than slight read last night)

2) The whole DLA/Collatz exchange

First, DLA is far more scummy in this exchange and its not even close. Collatz is confused, but thinks DLA is scum. If he is scum or town he is confused (thinking town). DLA is taking that confusion as a scumtell seem like he is just playing on the new player who is trying to help. Plus DLA is using the "lol I am reaction testing" which is just a cop out for acting scummy. In most "reaction test" situations the player is doing something that they should be voted for and then trying to say it was for getting reads. Don't act like scum to get reads because it will get you lynched by people who are smart enough to see it. He is more of a null-scum, but its not even close who is worse off from that exchange.

3) Just about everything RS does

He reads as new as well, but unlike collatz it seems more from a scum sided new. His vote on collatz is very poorly received, and then he backs off with the whole "I was reaction testing" response.

I do not at all believe that a complete newbie is going to in his first post decide to reaction test. What I think happened here is that he realized the vote was bad, and then realized that DLA basically played the exact same card and escaped from getting attacked. I just don't see newbie town RS sheeping the reaction test to do his own reaction test.

4) The whole Otolia thing

I don't see it. At all. Otolia isn't reading as town, but DLA seems to be reaching and that wagon is really ugly. Mnem (he is in this game), the IC, and then two of my top three scum reads + a null/scum read.

Smells of mislynch.

Vote RM


He actually hasn't done anything this game. There is the sheep of DLA on the prob-town collatz which is enough of a sheep that if you just iso RM you have no idea who collatz might be scum, there is voting otolia because they are NOT tunneling (town tell)... or don't want to be tunneled on (null tell), saying Marcel is town for explaining himself (is that a tell?) and the whole policy lynch exchange.

Would also have no problems jumping on RS, but RM is coasting and just showing up on really bad wagons.
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:00 am

Post by Lucky2u »

In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forumviewtopic.php?p=6702727#p6702727]post 52[/url], randomidget wrote:Multiple people said to lynch zeb if tip flipped scum. He wouldve been lynxhed
Anyway, im putting more effort into thus game.

VOTE: CKD

In post 220, Randomnamechange wrote:@redcoyote im always like this day 1. Flips are like coffee for me. I need them to get going.
So are we doing the tier thing?


Looking at your ISO, you stated you were going to put more effort and then didn't. Either your lazy, or this statement was just to get people to stop paying attention to you.

VOTE: RM
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:09 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 233, Lucky2u wrote:
In post 229, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:204 - Can we not break the fucking game. I hate shit like this. I play Mafia to, you know, actually play.


I don't think this is breaking the game to do. I think it is part of playing the game to do something like this.


Also yes this. Its not breaking the game, if it was broken it wouldn't be here. Optimized is not broken.

Think of something as simple as a doctor. If you target the player who is most likely to be town, you are optimizing your role. Same page, different playbook.
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:10 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

RM can you start doing something so you don't get lynched please.
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:23 am

Post by DarkLightA »

Llamafluff, good first post. You bring up some fresh ideas which is nice.

You mention Marcrell as scummy in your post, but then don't mention him when it comes to voting. How does he stand compared to RM/RS in your eyes? What about me?
Considering the whole controversy with RM and presumably his meta, though I haven't looked into it, do you not think he might just be town not paying very much attention?
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:28 am

Post by Alchemist21 »

In all the games I've played with RM, the ones where he wasn't lynched D1 were the ones where several players had prior experience with him. Look at my join date. He's been saying the same thing about not being useful on D1 since then.
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:34 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 245, Alchemist21 wrote:In all the games I've played with RM, the ones where he wasn't lynched D1 were the ones where several players had prior experience with him. Look at my join date. He's been saying the same thing about not being useful on D1 since then.


That doesn't discount the fact that the little he has been doing is scummy, and that meta is a null tell.

DarkLightA wrote:You mention Marcrell as scummy in your post, but then don't mention him when it comes to voting. How does he stand compared to RM/RS in your eyes? What about me?


I would go something along the lines of..

RM>RS>Marcel>>DLA>>Rest of game

Considering the whole controversy with RM and presumably his meta, though I haven't looked into it, do you not think he might just be town not paying very much attention?


Meta should not be an excuse as I already said. Some players are less active, but its not like the few posts he has made are town tells. He has about ten posts and most of them are scummy. He is sheeping, concentrated on self-image and seemingly attacking players for at best null tells.
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:39 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

I am concerned that Llama is scum-reading Darklight and not scum-reading Otolia.
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:46 am

Post by Alchemist21 »

In post 246, LlamaFluff wrote:
In post 245, Alchemist21 wrote:In all the games I've played with RM, the ones where he wasn't lynched D1 were the ones where several players had prior experience with him. Look at my join date. He's been saying the same thing about not being useful on D1 since then.


That doesn't discount the fact that the little he has been doing is scummy, and that meta is a null tell.

DarkLightA wrote:You mention Marcrell as scummy in your post, but then don't mention him when it comes to voting. How does he stand compared to RM/RS in your eyes? What about me?


I would go something along the lines of..

RM>RS>Marcel>>DLA>>Rest of game

Considering the whole controversy with RM and presumably his meta, though I haven't looked into it, do you not think he might just be town not paying very much attention?


Meta should not be an excuse as I already said. Some players are less active, but its not like the few posts he has made are town tells. He has about ten posts and most of them are scummy. He is sheeping, concentrated on self-image and seemingly attacking players for at best null tells.


They're not scummy posts coming from RM. It may be all null, but a policy lynch here really isn't going to do anything but give scum an easy wagon to push.
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:48 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 247, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I am concerned that Llama is scum-reading Darklight and not scum-reading Otolia.


And im concerned that you say there is at least one scum in RM and RS and then passively defend RM a few posts later.

I don't see a case that makes sense on Otolia. I do see all of my scum reads attacking them though.
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