Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Mina]

@Mina, Show me where he has any reason for voting me other than my RVS vote and his sheeping. How does he actually get a scumread out of what I said in RVS anyway? I thought about the possibility of a slayer's gambit because it seems to be a trend in Team Mafia.

Do you believe it's impossible to get a scum read on someone in RVS?

His later posts were the really town ones, but your case is basically that he's succinct. Aside from this being typical for BBmolla, succinct players aren't such rare creatures that anyone with a bit of experience onsite should be scumreading them JUST for being succinct. So if you're not scum, you're scumhunting very superficially--and inconsistently. (Basically, I agree with 201.) Do you have any scumreads who don't suspect you?

Anyway, I'd like to hear more from people who aren't in a back-and-forth with the Alchemist A couple more obvtown players would be nice before we move forward.

p-edit: I'll explain the read in more detail when I get home, Alchemist. A lot of it is gut, since I guess there are posts that someone could point to and go, "Aha, you're doing THIS superficially scummy thing."

[Mina]

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

[Alchemist21]

@Mina, Show me where he has any reason for voting me other than my RVS vote and his sheeping. How does he actually get a scumread out of what I said in RVS anyway? I thought about the possibility of a slayer's gambit because it seems to be a trend in Team Mafia.

Do you believe it's impossible to get a scum read on someone in RVS?

His later posts were the really town ones, but your case is basically that he's succinct. Aside from this being typical for BBmolla, succinct players aren't such rare creatures that anyone with a bit of experience onsite should be scumreading them JUST for being succinct. So if you're not scum, you're scumhunting very superficially--and inconsistently. (Basically, I agree with 201.) Do you have any scumreads who don't suspect you?

Anyway, I'd like to hear more from people who aren't in a back-and-forth with the Alchemist A couple more obvtown players would be nice before we move forward.

p-edit: I'll explain the read in more detail when I get home, Alchemist. A lot of it is gut, since I guess there are posts that someone could point to and go, "Aha, you're doing THIS superficially scummy thing."

If someone gets a scumread during RVS, it would have to be for a perceived scumslip. Apparantly he took my joke to be scummy, which is just stupid, and if that's really the reason he wants to come up with, it's a crap push.

My problem with them isn't that they're succinct; I know some players are like that. If that's what you took from my posts then you didn't read carefully enough.

I don't have scumreads outside those 2, and don't see why I should. 2 scumspects in a 2-scum game is ideal. Is it possible they're not both scum? Yes, but unless I see something scummy from another slot, or something happens to reverse my read on one of them, these are the 2 I feel are scum.

[Alchemist21]

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

FWIW, Titus told me it's been a while since she played with him but said he tends to hang back.

[BipolarChemist]

And you, serra, and etl are very probably town

ETL hit town rediculously early and serras response to me was highly favorable and it's difficult seeing that actually coming from a town perspective.

I don't understand the Serra read at this point like at all. Serra really hasn't done much, IMO. At this point, the bulk of what he ha done was agreeing with you that you shouldn't be super paranoid of each other, with some general comment on why you two get paranoid. He asked a fair question after, but nothing not obvious. I don't see that post coming from town or scum. So why do you have a probably town read on him?

It ended up being more a case of "why not"

ETL hit town rediculously early and serras response to me was highly favorable and it's difficult seeing that actually coming from a town perspective.

Can you explain your serrapaladin town read? (I'm not parsing where it comes from.)

And where does your serra town read come from, Mina? (Also, could you please respond to my message a couple pages back. Still waiting yo)

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

For my own description of my typical play: I'm generally quiet, post in walls, lots of the time just responding to things rather than actively hunting. This has been true for both my scum and town games IMO.

My teammates are parsing through Alchemist and wanted to bring up a few posts where he's pretty heavily deflecting or the "No you" defense!

Spoiler: Buncha Alchy Posts

I was honest. I prefer being scum because it's usually more enjoyable, but I'm a stronger player as Town, and from a tactical standpoint making me Town is the better move.

I also don't get how people are scumreading me while Townreading BPC. We're doing the same things, just BPC has more words.

VOTE: Alchemist21

No reads. Not scumhunting.

You criticize me but not BBMolla? I'm starting to think you're just sheeping Mina.

VOTE: Quilford

^Says the guy who was the first of 2 to sheep onto my wagon. This is the fourth time you've said you had a reads list and refused to post it. You haven't done any scumhunting, and for you to vote someone else for that is just hypocritical bullshit.

Also, we're all kinda iffy on Mina's posting still. There are a number of things that feel odd to us.

This game looks like it'll be really easy so far, by the way.

What makes this game look so easy? (Well at the time of posting this). I don't see the direction of this post, it feels unnecessarily cocky. I haven't played with you, but from general talking, this feels out of character.

Quilford, Regfan says you're scum who's doing distancing with Alchemist and buddying up to me.

(Not "I think Quilford is scummy." "Hey, guess what, the scum in your game are Alchemist and Quilford." Regfan is weird sometimes.)

I don't see what's weird about a comment like that?

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

We feel like Quilford is generally experienced enough to hide things if he needed to and that your team might be underestimating him. Like I have a town lean on him still, but the amount of scrutiny you've put him under feels lacking, and you seem to have written him off as town.

I'm currently in between voting Alchemist and Mina.

UNVOTE: Mara

[BipolarChemist]

VOTE: Mina

[Mina]

Oh, I generally start out as cocky, when the stakes are low and there's no actual pressure to make a life-or-death decision. Don't worry. The cracks in my sanity will be visible soon. ^_^

(I originally had that worded as "Regfan has weird reads sometimes," since the Quilford-is-obvscum one came out of nowhere to me, but "weird" encompasses both the reads and the overconfidence. Why do you think that's alignment-relevant? Also, doesn't this contradict "Mina has written off Quilford is town"? In all fairness, I'm probably being a lot more inscrutable/succinct with my reads than usual, though--in part because I'm posting in little bits when I'm supposed to be working.)

[BipolarChemist]

I will worry gosh darn it!

The bits about overlooking Quilford came from earlier in this game, before your comment about Regfan's comment. There were a couple of times where you seemed to just lump him in as town.

Also, serial yo, respond to this:

Quilford: Because it feels like this player list is really easily PoE-able. You, ETL, and probably serra are town. Now I think Patrick looks town (although he's the one person who I think could really fuck us over if he's scum). Mara looks kind of genuine, except she's sort of in the same general fuzzy bunny scumbag as, e.g., Malakittens in Wicked who posts a lot of nice posts about safer topics, so sure, she can be in my extended lynch pool. But that leaves Alchemist, BPC, and BBmolla. BBmolla is really readable, so we'll know one way or another soon.

Reads I don't understand here: ETL and Serra. Serra has made like 2 posts, neither with much content. Why the quick town read? And you said you think ETL is fine before, but why? What do you think about the arguments brought up against ETL's points earlier and do you think her posting could be read as scummy then?

[BipolarChemist]

As for alignment relevancy, my comment on not thinking Regfan's stuff was weird is coming off of me feeling weird about your leaning on your partners in this game quite a bit. I've felt like you have some reads once in a while, but then make them ignorable by saying "but my partners think this so oh well".

[Patrick]

@Patrick, what is the main difference you see between BPC and myself?

I don't think the two of you have been similar in your play so far. Early on he seems to be trying to get involved, points out a few things that stand out to him, asks some questions, etc. I don't think his indecision is much of a tell either way this early, and he immediately strikes me as a player who probably posts like that in all his games. I think someone else mentioned that as well. You've made a fair number of posts yourself, but alot of the early ones seem like you're trying to appear curious rather than gathering useful info or trolling for reactions. All of 24, 45 and 55 feel awkward to an extent, and that's without being picky. I can easily imagine you as scum nervously approaching the thread and making those posts.

Currently like my vote on Alchemist but in no rush for a L-1. The wagon is interesting; Mina and Quilford to an extent both look like they got on after it became popular without expressing strong suspicion before. Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect. Mina I don't feel that comfortable about; easy to imagine her as scum either bussing alchemist or just attacking the easy target. My team all seem to have concerns about her, though CES might just be doing it because he wants me to troll her.

BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.

[Patrick]

Mina's comments on her Quilford read and Regfan putting forward Quilford/alchemist as a group seem pretty real though.

Mina, are you good forum scum?

[Mina]

I fell asleep last night writing it (READ MY POSTS ;_;).

Actually, since it's not going to get a really interesting answer, I might as well give away serrapaladin is what I was driving at re: Quilford here, here, and here. I was reading back in order to respond to you, went, "Huh, serrapaladin's big post is actually a lot less substantial than I remember. Maybe I should reevaluate." So then I had a moment of paranoia about Quilford for being all, "ilu Mina for your gorgeous reads!" (also, since I think that's the point where Empire started chiming in with, "Hey, Mina, watch out for Quilford, because Regfan and I have been TALKING about him" and I started getting paranoid).

As for why I initially townread him...I had a positive reaction to his big post because I agreed with virtually all his opinions, and I just liked the tone for some reason.

ETL I remember there were specific posts I townread (I forget what they are, but I'll look for them when I get home), but it's mostly gut and just that she looked like she was scumhunting in her interactions with Mara/Quilford. Quilford's actual case I thought was..eh, all right for an RVS case? ETL's first few posts were a bit iffy, although I don't know if "jumpy" is the word I'd use and I remember her looking a lot better at the point you jumped in. But your post felt very empty and felt more like it was subtly pushing the ETL-is-scummy-because-look-someone-made-a-case-on-it, but without joining the wagon or really coming across as though you sincerely believed it.

I buy the teammate argument--tbh, I was expecting someone to go, "Omigod, you're subtly casting doubt on Quilford by blaming Regfan." However, Empire and Regfan are both fantastic town players (not that Zar is bad by any means, either!), so their opinions have a lot of weight with me, and we're being very hands-on with each other's games so far. Expect their names to be mentioned a lot more.

[Mina]

Mina, are you good forum scum?

Probably? I think I'm capable of sounding pretty town as scum (although couldn't you just ask CES that?). I don't think I look as town as when I'm actually town, but luckily, it's still enough to fool people! I mean, I don't think most of my posts so far have been particularly unfakeable, although I haven't really been playing very image-consciously so far.

[Alchemist21]

@Patrick, what is the main difference you see between BPC and myself?

I don't think the two of you have been similar in your play so far. Early on he seems to be trying to get involved, points out a few things that stand out to him, asks some questions, etc. I don't think his indecision is much of a tell either way this early, and he immediately strikes me as a player who probably posts like that in all his games. I think someone else mentioned that as well. You've made a fair number of posts yourself, but alot of the early ones seem like you're trying to appear curious rather than gathering useful info or trolling for reactions. All of 24, 45 and 55 feel awkward to an extent, and that's without being picky. I can easily imagine you as scum nervously approaching the thread and making those posts.

Currently like my vote on Alchemist but in no rush for a L-1. The wagon is interesting; Mina and Quilford to an extent both look like they got on after it became popular without expressing strong suspicion before. Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect. Mina I don't feel that comfortable about; easy to imagine her as scum either bussing alchemist or just attacking the easy target. My team all seem to have concerns about her, though CES might just be doing it because he wants me to troll her.

BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.

That's a fair contrast I suppose. I like how you're at least giving the reasons for your read and fleshing them out without acting like it's some super secret. I can understand your POV here, but that's not unusual for me; I used t get attacked for this kind of thing in my early Town games.

Where do you get the sense Mina is scummier than Quilford? Tbh I get the sense Quilford is latching onto Mina here, and my team and I are in agreement that scumQuilford probably means TownMina. Also, have you looked at Molla's posts?

[Patrick]

Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect.

Actually. Is this just you Mina? Not that I dismiss your opinion, I just had in my head more people saying it.

(although couldn't you just ask CES that?)

I did, he thinks you're good. I had been hoping you'd be very easy to read.

[Mina]

Sorry! If it helps, don't worry, I'll probably be obvtown eventually. I'm just not sure if it's obvious yet from to an objective observer. (You could have also tried the "Boy, Mina is sooooo scary and unlynchable, and so dangerous with her Rising Star/Paragon team" approach, but too late, I guess.)

If it also helps, I'm internally waffling right now! I'm going to keep it out of the thread for now, though.

[Patrick]

Where do you get the sense Mina is scummier than Quilford? Tbh I get the sense Quilford is latching onto Mina here, and my team and I are in agreement that scumQuilford probably means TownMina. Also, have you looked at Molla's posts?

Not alot solid behind it, Quilford just kind of looks like a townie who is comfortably and organically pointing out things that get his attention and trying to get reactions out of people. There's also Mina's meta on him as being easy to read - I rate meta very highly as a way of reading people, which is why I feel uncomfortable not having much of it here; most of my forum games were played a good few years ago and knowing alot of the people I played with. I don't feel like Mina would be making up that meta even if scum, so I'm happy to give it some weight since its in line with my read.

bbmolla's posts seem like what I'd expect from having attended a couple of real life meets with him. I agree he shamelessly wagoned you but that seems reasonable if he's town who just agrees with what I said?

[Patrick]

(You could have also tried the "Boy, Mina is sooooo scary and unlynchable, and so dangerous with her Rising Star/Paragon team" approach, but too late, I guess.)

CES recommended snark, but I'm not feeling snarky atm. I look forward to seeing your waffling at some point though.

[Mina]

I think my pool now is still

probably

Alchemist/serra/BPC, which means one of them is scum and the second is some random person I'm misreading because I suck. I have doubts on Alchemist/BPC that I'll keep to myself for now, since I'm a very decisive person with very decisive opinions.

My experience with Quilford is that he hates scum and tends to lurk when he draws it. I can see him still being active D1 in brief spurts, but 1) probably not staying up until 3 AM, and 2) also probably scumreading people for really bad reasons. (I'd thought Empire and Regfan were aware of this, though, so I'll get back to you here.) I also liked the post about how people voting Alchemist bolstered his confidence.

[Mina]

2) also probably scumreading people for really bad reasons.

To elaborate, I remember he made reads lists occasionally when he was hydraing with N, and they were all pretty bad and empty.

(Empire said he played well as Pandora in ADwD, but I remember that being mostly Shadoweh--even his D1 posts were just okay. Patrick, did CES say anything to you about Quilford's meta?)

Oh, another thing. I like that he wasn't forthright with his reads list (although I didn't like him giving the exact time stamp of his PT reads). It seemed like he was voluntarily being less transparent to achieve a goal, which I'm not sure I see scum!Quilford doing.

[Patrick]

Haven't bothered to read back through the whole log but I'm pretty sure he hasn't. The other two seem to rate Quilford as a player but nothing alignment specific.

[BBmolla]

I see RVS as an ice-breaker stage for the game where people can kinda warm up and prepare to get into the game.

This was your scum post alch

It's so fucking "I'm going to post shit for the sake of posting shit"

[Alchemist21]

I see RVS as an ice-breaker stage for the game where people can kinda warm up and prepare to get into the game.

This was your scum post alch

It's so fucking "I'm going to post shit for the sake of posting shit"

That's still a terrible reason for voting me. How is that scummy in the least?

[BBmolla]

Alche do you think I'm bad at this game?

[BBmolla]

A game filled with veterans and content and that's the post you muster? Telling us your mafia theory about rvs?

Are you serious?