Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[T S O]

Am I the only one who finds Bulbazak's thought process here bizarre as fuck?

Bulba: "oh I'm mad that I made a post and hito locked the thread"
GIF: "you should have used the Back button"
Bulba: "meh didn't want it anyway"

Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum, if I'd even say such a thing in the first place. Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention. Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly.

But this post doesn't actually address any of my concerns about what is, to my eyes right now, you straight-up lying for no good reason.

"Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum" - Sure. The point remains you did it. Scum don't play optimally 100% of the time.
"if I'd even say such a thing in the first place" - Well, that's irrelevant, seeing as you -did- say it.
"Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention." - Yes, correct, but this is

still

pointing out simple logic rather than addressing anything.
"Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly" - Why is this? This is the only thing you said that has any relevance to my point.

I still don't understand why you made a post, then didn't post it, then moaned about not being able to even though it was easily retrievable with one click. I'm starting to believe this post never existed, because if it did, then your actions are so incredibly illogical that it's physically not believable for me.

So the only real question I have left to ask after this post is ...why are you lying to us? Because scum in a game like this really, really don't want to admit that they were caught in a lie, and your reaction fits that pretty well.

[Untrod Tripod]

what bothers me is the fact that you think you can solve a game or an alignment at the very beginning of the game

I'm totally on board with using the socratic method, but I don't think it will gain you surefire alignment information

[Untrod Tripod]

nor are you addressing the fact that I believe that you are trying to play peacemaker to make yourself look town

for what it's worth have you not for a moment considered that I'm butting heads with you on purpose?

[Titus]

ad-hominem attacks

tell your team to learn what ad hominem means and then get back to me

I think their team has a good grip on its common uses.

Ad hominen attacks are attacks made to discredit the speaker rather than focusing on the arguments. For instance, when you said I was "making myself look more important than I was" is properly considered an ad hominen attack. It doesn't discuss the logic of whether getting Tammy and Empire to talk is good, or even whether my method is the most effective. Instead, you attacked me for presenting it, saying it's an attempt at towncred for getting people to work together.


@UT, Some people can be found out day 1. Others can't. There's a reason why the adage of Tammy being obvtown if town is true (usually). I've seen plenty of people use that adage, so I would suppose her alignment is solvable early on. Setting that aside, why quibble over a tactic you think is good because you think I overestimated something? Just say, I think you overestimated but it's a good idea.

[Untrod Tripod]

For instance, when you said I was "making myself look more important than I was" is properly considered an ad hominen attack

I'm not attacking you the person, I'm attacking what you were doing and what I perceived as its motivations

don't be ridiculous

[Titus]

nor are you addressing the fact that I believe that you are trying to play peacemaker to make yourself look town

for what it's worth have you not for a moment considered that I'm butting heads with you on purpose?

I figured you had some sort of agenda randomly attempting to piss people off, it just appears an attempt to throw mud. Doubly so because it occurred after I attacked you.

I have addressed it. Did I forget the obligatory, I'm town comment so of course I look town. Elaborating more on theory is actually quite scummy and hides the actual facts in play.

Now if you don't mind, I'm going to discuss actual reads with TSO. K. Thanks.

[Titus]

Am I the only one who finds Bulbazak's thought process here bizarre as fuck?

Bulba: "oh I'm mad that I made a post and hito locked the thread"
GIF: "you should have used the Back button"
Bulba: "meh didn't want it anyway"

Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum, if I'd even say such a thing in the first place. Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention. Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly.

But this post doesn't actually address any of my concerns about what is, to my eyes right now, you straight-up lying for no good reason.

"Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum" - Sure. The point remains you did it. Scum don't play optimally 100% of the time.
"if I'd even say such a thing in the first place" - Well, that's irrelevant, seeing as you -did- say it.
"Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention." - Yes, correct, but this is

still

pointing out simple logic rather than addressing anything.
"Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly" - Why is this? This is the only thing you said that has any relevance to my point.

I still don't understand why you made a post, then didn't post it, then moaned about not being able to even though it was easily retrievable with one click. I'm starting to believe this post never existed, because if it did, then your actions are so incredibly illogical that it's physically not believable for me.

So the only real question I have left to ask after this post is ...why are you lying to us? Because scum in a game like this really, really don't want to admit that they were caught in a lie, and your reaction fits that pretty well.

Ok break this down for me. I'm just seeing a quibble here, so maybe that's why I missed it.

So there's a locking of the thread. You're saying Bulba caused it, and that he had a missing unretrievable post. I've had that happen before, so where's the lie? I think you think it's there (there's no need to throw more dirt with made up given how many people scumread Bulba) but why do it?

[Untrod Tripod]

well I'm really looking forward to all that fantastic information you're going to uncover by being so much smarter than I am

[Titus]

For instance, when you said I was "making myself look more important than I was" is properly considered an ad hominen attack

I'm not attacking you the person, I'm attacking what you were doing and what I perceived as its motivations

don't be ridiculous

That's still ad hominen. Logic isn't about motivation. It's about what's true and what isn't true. You wanted to stop me because you thought it was a power play. That's not based in logic. That's based in fear and discrediting.

Is it true that Tammy and Empire should settle their differences? We both agree they should discuss and attempt to. So why are you upset that I brought it up? You're attack on me was an attempt to stop them from working together by painting my actions as in a scummy light. Ad hominen and appeal to emotion.

When you see an entire team disagreeing with you, that's when you re-evaluate. Right now, I'd be even more full of hostile quips and calling you scummy but my team wants me to hold back and engage in dialogue but it must be constructive.

Again the comment about being "smarter than you" doesn't do anything to foster actual conversations. It's more of an attempt to anger me. I've never postulated that I'm smarter than you, nor do I care for such posturing. WE all are smart in different ways.

I may not get emotion well, but I do know logic and I do understand when a tunnel is coming about.

[fferyllt]

titus please don't do stuff that will make me hate my limited time in the game.

being pedantic will definitely make me hate my limited time in the game.

[Untrod Tripod]

I may not get emotion well, but I do know logic and I do understand when a tunnel is coming about.

I was actually just telling my team that I'm townreading you because of this conversation

[Untrod Tripod]

You wanted to stop me because you thought it was a power play. That's not based in logic. That's based in fear and discrediting.

that doesn't make it wrong

in this game you have to play on people's emotions. it's all about political positioning and leveraging people's motivations into being useful to you. logic is all well and good, but analyzing motivations is a powerful tool if you want to find scum.

I understand you have your method based in formal logic, which I imagine has served you well at times, but you're ignoring the other half of the game by acting like you can solve the game with formal logic. there's always going to be uncertainty no matter how good your method is.

[Titus]

You wanted to stop me because you thought it was a power play. That's not based in logic. That's based in fear and discrediting.

that doesn't make it wrong

in this game you have to play on people's emotions. it's all about political positioning and leveraging people's motivations into being useful to you. logic is all well and good, but analyzing motivations is a powerful tool if you want to find scum.

I understand you have your method based in formal logic, which I imagine has served you well at times, but you're ignoring the other half of the game by acting like you can solve the game with formal logic. there's always going to be uncertainty no matter how good your method is.

I agree that at Day 1 you are right. Hence why I suck at day 1, which is why I want Tammy to flesh out that read. I'm sheeping it but if Tammy doesn't believe it. I have to get that logic to get a foothold. I fill in with emotion only where logical thought does not exist.


@Ffery, Sorry. Being pedantic is a defensive mechanism if I've been told I cannot snap/get angry, I verbally spar. I try not to but it is my nature.

[Untrod Tripod]

don't apologize for being pedantic, what you have to say is super interesting

[Titus]

@UT, I should be. The goal is to be enjoyable. I don't care if I win if I'm ruining someone else's enjoyment. FFery was clear that it would make her hate it.

Also, some Tripod told me this is an emotional game and I should respect how people feel. I go no idea who made that. The guy looks like a cat from a small cool town in North Carolina.

[Marquis]

Oh god this conversation is so weird!

[Tammy]

Oh god this conversation is so weird!

Yeah, but can you please answer my question about where you found I won a scum game in TM 2012?

[Marquis]

I hate sounding like

that kind

of stuck-up hypocritical bitch but I can't picture it any other way than UT and Titus screaming at each other from across the courtyard then running up to each other and seeing each other's face then suddenly flirting really hard!

PEDIT Um, the search button!? What do you mean!?

[Imperium]

Like you said that you went searching through old Team Mafia games, so are you saying that you went to the game itself or what?

[Tammy]

Like you said that you went searching through old Team Mafia games, so are you saying that you went to the game itself or what?

Erm.

[Gammagooey]

so

post I was talking about in regards to Zar was post 221 seeming genuine and I just didn't get a scumvibe from all the posts that people were railing on him for. Empire's entrance reads as pretty null to me, I'd expect the strong LOOK AT ME I'M DOING ALL THE THINGS AND KICKING ASS esque play from either alignment, and the scum read on me makes sense even if I think the super-confident early committment to it seems pretty weird. admittedly haven't read over most of his big reads post yet though.

Don't really have particularly strong scum reads aside from bulba, if I had to pick out someone else I'd probably go with GuyInFreezer just because he has a ton of posts and none of them look like a towntell to me, there's a pretty giant pile of people I don't have any real semblance of a read on though.

vezok is actually a fairly strong town read compared to most people since he seems really genuine about thinking I'm scum and empire's town but not being able to articulate it
UT still looks pretty genuine IMO and I think he'd be pushing people harder as scum here instead of just commenting about a lot of things
and TSO's comments+questions yesterday seem like they're coming from a town mindset

that's pretty much it for my reads so far aside from the stuff I mentioned yesterday, still need to read I think the last page or two and empire's giant read list, and have no intention of reading tammy's megawall ever.

@empire though-

People have had opinions about things beyond mechanics for what seems like quite some time now so we expected you to have more than what you've been putting in and it feels like you've been using the mechanics stuff as a crutch to generate content. Also, your tone just feels off - it seems like you're disinterested in a way that doesn't suggest the root cause is preoccupation with RL stuff.

With regards to the choice I was keeping things to myself more than a bit because I didn't want to be talking about optimal scum play in a complex setup like this.
also I'm kinda surprised you're town reading bulba when the read you posted on him has one minor thing I think is probably true/genuine regardless of his alignment + a teammates read on him. This isn't really a question but I wouldn't mind you giving some more thoughts on him if you've got 'em.

[Marquis]

And by hypocritical I mean it just reads as really weird and not genuine! Like I'm still trying to figure out if UT's recent posts are being facetious or not!

[Titus]

@Gamma, I'm liking that thought from you. Talking about optimal scumplay is difficult in a wacky setup like this. Some things are inherently obvious, for instance scum want more kills.

I'd rather curious as to your stance on Bulba.

[Tammy]

Yeah, but marquis, answer my question?

[Tammy]

And what did you enter into the search function?