Mini 1653: A Game of Pokes - game over

[FA_Q2]

@mod - I am back

Read page 16.

vikingfan – town

Explain this please.

He has not done anything that looks particularlty scummy so far and his play is not all that different from the last game I played with him where he was lynched and he was town.

maybe I am giving him to much leeway because of how bad we were wrong in the last game I played with him but I get an overall town. You seem to think that he is scum, care to summerize why? Is there something that I missed?

[FA_Q2]

Slandaar...I'm doing this over my phone so I might be missing something. What about the link you provided to a recent Fish game indicates he is scum in this game?

His other game is much stronger.

His replace in here was very weak as evidenced by the complete lack of follow up on anything. His replace in there had much more purpose about it.

I dont see how that is a scum tell at all.

Personally, I invest a LOT more work into my scum game because you have to watch everything you say and build solid reads without contradicting yourself or getting one of your teamates lynched. That takes far more work than town play IMHO. A replace in that is weaker than a previous game is a complete null for me - more likely to be because of time constraints or simple lazyness more than an actual alignment indicator. That is unless there is a solid history of replacing in strong as town and weak as scum and that takes more games than one to establish.

[FA_Q2]

im really frustrated because I think massive is town.

But he has tunnel vision on me and there is no way I'm going to live even if im a good role.

? Because ONE player tunneled you?

That is shit reasoning and you know it. There is no reason to simply give up because one player thinks you are scum. I dont see how you last in any game then - the one single constant across 100 percent of all mafia games I have ever played is that you will be scum read for any random reason whatsoever every single game.

So what if massive is tunniling on you - who cares. You will likely dies before the end of the game as well (that is also average in mafia games) and again, who cares. Give us something to work with in the mean time.

[OkaPoka]

im really frustrated because I think massive is town.

But he has tunnel vision on me and there is no way I'm going to live even if im a good role.

? Because ONE player tunneled you?

That is shit reasoning and you know it. There is no reason to simply give up because one player thinks you are scum. I dont see how you last in any game then - the one single constant across 100 percent of all mafia games I have ever played is that you will be scum read for any random reason whatsoever every single game.

So what if massive is tunniling on you - who cares. You will likely dies before the end of the game as well (that is also average in mafia games) and again, who cares. Give us something to work with in the mean time.

im town and kelbris is scum.

monkey is ehhh.

[FA_Q2]

Not much has happened in the last 4 pages to change any of my reads. Aristo still seems damn scumy to me but does not seem to be an option for today's lynch unless something changes witht the current wagons. I would really prefer a Monkey or Random lynch - I think they are both awfully scummy players. Monkey even moreso but there does not seem to be any steam there as well. I could compramise on the killbris wagon because of:

This lynch also has two key benefits: a.) He has claimed VT already. Lynching kelbris removes the opportunity for other roles to be outed. There's a good chance he's scum, but, even if he isn't, the loss is small because he's not a power role. b.) His lynch could be very informative. He has made a lot of posts and it feels like he has been one of the major focuses of this game. One of the primary goals of day 1 is to get information and I think his lynch gets it, regardless of the flip.

That is solid reasoning right there and I can go witht that to avoid a no lynch.

[vikingfan]

I agree as well. Policywise, kelbris seems to be the best play. Though Oka seems to have a lot of the same benefits (I highly doubt a PR would offer to self-hammer, a PR would claim rather than self-hammer so I'm pretty sure Oka is either VT or scum) so I guess it depends on which one people prefer.

And I totally agree on random and Aristo but it seems like that has no juice so it's either oka or kelbris, we just need to settle on one to avoid a no-lynch.

[FA_Q2]

well, we have only one day left and Oka is at L-2 and random is at L-4 if I am not mistaken. Those are the top 2 wagons.

We are really fractured right now and we are way to close to the deadline for this to be the case.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry my mistake, must have confused him with someone else.

Ugh… seriously?

I’m not buying this.

For those that haven’t been following this exchange, please don’t skim, I’m going to recap.

Monkey replaces in with this post;

Spoiler: ooh ooh aah aah

Initial reads. Intentiaonally general, since it is still early in day 1. Will try and be more specific in the future.



Massive: Town. Willing to scumhunt and stand up to criticism.

Havingfitz: Town. Some good activity and content.

Wickedestjr: Town. Is asking good questions and interacting with different people.

Aristo: I like Aristo more than his predecessor(Cheetory). But for now I'll say null.

Vikingfan: Scum. Not a lot of content, voting for low hanging fruit(random).

FA_Q2: Null. Would like more content, but can't really say he's scum.

OkaPoka: Scum. His predecessor was low content, and he is low content. Not a coincidence.

kelbris: Town. Like his content and analysis.

Slandaar: Town. More colaborative and less antagonistic than I've seen him before.

Saul Goode: Scum. Don't like that he's not willing to read through 13 pages to figure out a case.

randommidget: Town. Not the strongest player but seems to be responding well to criticism.

Formerfish: Town. Like his content, don't like that he is responding to me similarly to another game when he was scum, but will keep an open mind on him.

Vote: OkaPoka

Look at the Oka and FA reads. Monkey scum read Oka for low content but null read FA_Q2 for the same trait: low content. When Oka points this out, Monkey ignores him.

Then I bring it up again and Monkey responds with, “That's because FA is a replacement, and I was mixed on the two different players.” This is an awful explanation though, because FA being a replacement does not change the fact that Monkey null read him for low content when he thinks this is a scum tell for Oka. It doesn’t matter if he confused FA with another player - he

still

null read FA for low content, something that he voted Oka for. Also, FA is still not a replacement.

I think Monkey slipped up. Either that or he’s town whose thought process I simply can’t comprehend.

[OkaPoka]

Sorry my mistake, must have confused him with someone else.

Ugh… seriously?

I’m not buying this.

For those that haven’t been following this exchange, please don’t skim, I’m going to recap.

Monkey replaces in with this post;

Spoiler: ooh ooh aah aah

Initial reads. Intentiaonally general, since it is still early in day 1. Will try and be more specific in the future.



Massive: Town. Willing to scumhunt and stand up to criticism.

Havingfitz: Town. Some good activity and content.

Wickedestjr: Town. Is asking good questions and interacting with different people.

Aristo: I like Aristo more than his predecessor(Cheetory). But for now I'll say null.

Vikingfan: Scum. Not a lot of content, voting for low hanging fruit(random).

FA_Q2: Null. Would like more content, but can't really say he's scum.

OkaPoka: Scum. His predecessor was low content, and he is low content. Not a coincidence.

kelbris: Town. Like his content and analysis.

Slandaar: Town. More colaborative and less antagonistic than I've seen him before.

Saul Goode: Scum. Don't like that he's not willing to read through 13 pages to figure out a case.

randommidget: Town. Not the strongest player but seems to be responding well to criticism.

Formerfish: Town. Like his content, don't like that he is responding to me similarly to another game when he was scum, but will keep an open mind on him.

Vote: OkaPoka

Look at the Oka and FA reads. Monkey scum read Oka for low content but null read FA_Q2 for the same trait: low content. When Oka points this out, Monkey ignores him.

Then I bring it up again and Monkey responds with, “That's because FA is a replacement, and I was mixed on the two different players.” This is an awful explanation though, because FA being a replacement does not change the fact that Monkey null read him for low content when he thinks this is a scum tell for Oka. It doesn’t matter if he confused FA with another player - he

still

null read FA for low content, something that he voted Oka for. Also, FA is still not a replacement.

I think Monkey slipped up. Either that or he’s town whose thought process I simply can’t comprehend.

glad someone reads my posts

(why monkey dies tmr) (kelbris today)

[FA_Q2]

How about monkey dies today and we can talk about taking out kilbris tomarrow?

[FA_Q2]

VOTE: MonkeyMan576
I really think this is the likliest place to find scum thus far.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote.

- This is obviously not happening, not sure it's my favorite option anymore anyway.

The three options seem to be random, kelbris, Oka.

random- My least favorite option of the three. I just don't think any of the points brought up against him are very telling, I think he'd be at least trying to appear pro-town if he was scum. He has so little content that I also think his already-risky lynch reveals little in comparison to the other two options - of the three, his lynch would disappoint me most if wrong.

kelbris- The scummiest of the three for me. The sacrificial-acceptance post is pretty null, don't fall for it. Oka started playing that card first. Even if he's town, this is still a great strategic choice for the reasons previously stated.

Oka- Slight town lean on this slot. Not familiar with his play, but I tend to believe in

his

recent game-over/okay-with-own-lynch mentality. Admittedly, I think that's the only reason I had for town reading him, but it's a decently-strong feeling. It's not an awful lynch, if wrong, but I think it's wrong enough of the time that I'd prefer the kelbris lynch over it.


The fourth (and more difficult to organize) option is Monkey. I think that the point I made in my last post is very strong. Ignoring a good question and coming up with some garbage/irrelevant excuse, when asked again, seems like a clear scum response. I know it's only one point against a player that just recently replaced in, but I'm not feeling super excited about the other options. I'm going to

Vote: MonkeyMan

and, if there is still negligible interest by 1:30 pm GMT-5, then I will switch to the kelbris wagon.

P-edit: There's one. Good start!

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: monkey
not optimal but whatev

[kelbris]

@Slandaar thanks for letting me know about the mistake. Will read Formerfish's ISO and let you know what I think tomorrow (IRL time assuming we don't end the day first, In-Game Time otherwise, if I am still alive).

Anyway, the reason I prefer to judge a slot on it's current merits (at least for now) is because I had not played with Riblet and therefore did not know whether that was his play as town, scum or a 3rd party. Considering how he is "done with this site" I doubt I ever will play with him again. Anyway, in one of my games I was witness to a slot who's first user acted scummy, then replaced out, his replacement got angry after another slot had constantly said that he was scum and then voted for him, everyone else jumped on the wagon and he was lynched. What happened? Turned out the slot was a VT. All I am saying is one can not act solely based on what a slot's predecessor said, and in this particular game? There have been A LOT of replacements done, which makes reads a bit trickier.

On the topic of this particular day, we are only 1 day and 2 hours (when last I checked) away from deadline, I have chosen my vote, and I am gonna stick to it.

[Slandaar]

Look at the Oka and FA reads. Monkey scum read Oka for low content but null read FA_Q2 for the same trait: low content. When Oka points this out, Monkey ignores him.

Originally his read is basically saying that two players being low content is suspicious/too much of a coincidence. There is a difference in the reads at that point but, yes, there does seem to have been some mistake in his read when he tries to explain it.

[massive]

OK, I have no idea why Wickedest and FA are starting a counter-COUNTER-wagon with 18 hours left. And I have no idea why Kelbris is still defending Riblet/Fish with that horrible "I'm going to ignore what the slot originally did" logic.

[Wickedestjr]

Look at the Oka and FA reads. Monkey scum read Oka for low content but null read FA_Q2 for the same trait: low content. When Oka points this out, Monkey ignores him.

Originally his read is basically saying that two players being low content is suspicious/too much of a coincidence. There is a difference in the reads at that point but, yes, there does seem to have been some mistake in his read when he tries to explain it.

I don't think this makes a huge difference. He

still

null reads one slot for a point that he uses to vote another player. Two players exhibiting a null tell should not indicate scum. Null + Null =/= Scum

Also, more importantly, if this was the key distinguishing factor -

why didn't Monkey just say this

? Despite given several opportunities, he didn't ever say that when I questioned him- so it must not have been part of his thought process and we can ignore this possibility.

OK, I have no idea why Wickedest and FA are starting a counter-COUNTER-wagon with 18 hours left. And I have no idea why Kelbris is still defending Riblet/Fish with that horrible "I'm going to ignore what the slot originally did" logic.

I'm trying to start a counter-counter wagon with 18 hours left, because I was too busy the day before and now I'm dissatisfied with the bandwagon options. I'm not going to refrain from voting my top suspect just because of the time- he's already got three votes, this is now just as much a candidate as Oka or random or kelbris.

If you have an issue with this bandwagon, please criticize the reasoning and not the way in which it formed (which I see nothing wrong with).

[Wickedestjr]

The current vote count;

OkaPoka(5): massive, Monkeyman576, Kelbris, Aristophanes, randomidget
MonkeyMan576(3): FA_Q2, Wickedestjr, OkaPoka
randomidget(2): havingfitz, vikingfan
Formerfish(1): Slandaar
kelbris(1): Formerfish
massive(1): Saul Goode


massive and Formerfish are probably not getting lynched today...

[Saul Goode]

VOTE: Monkeyman

Massive, Monkey, and Kelbris all have scum equity and are ALL voting Oka. That's enough for me to avoid that wagon like the plague.

[Slandaar]

I don't think this makes a huge difference. He still null reads one slot for a point that he uses to vote another player. Two players exhibiting a null tell should not indicate scum. Null + Null =/= Scum

Nah, if you have a lot of players in one slot all being useless it seems fine to suspect it as scum for that. 2 is maybe a bit early but is OK. Point being there was a difference between the 2.

Also, more importantly, if this was the key distinguishing factor - why didn't Monkey just say this? Despite given several opportunities, he didn't ever say that when I questioned him- so it must not have been part of his thought process and we can ignore this possibility.

That is the question. He has gotten very mixed up for some reason.

I would be interested to hear what he says but we may not get the time unfortunately.

[vikingfan]

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. [[/vote]monkey[/vote]. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

[vikingfan]

VOTE: monkey. Let's try this again

[vikingfan]

That's L-2 for the record and now tied with the oka wagon

[Formerfish]

I am mostly caught up.

Slandaar, I would expect a better argument from you in regards to meta. You should know better than to take one game and compare it to another to try and make conclusions to fit your established view point. I could easily show you a scum game where I was super involved and a town game that I actually started in that I couldn't have given a fuck to keep up with.

Monkey seems town from the experience I have with him. His style is frustrating and I don't particularly like it, but it doesn't make him scum. I don't think that he slipped anymore than Massive did, which wasn't a slip either.

I would prefer an Oka lynch over a Monkey lynch at this point (as I see Kelbris isn't going to happen).

Vote Oka

[havingfitz]

OK...well so much for the random Idgit wagon

I'm more suspect of Oka than I am of Monkey. That said...I'm more suspect of the players on the Oka wagon than I am of those on Monkey. i.e. most of my stronger town reads are on Monkey while my top two suspects (easy though they may be????) are on Oka.

I'll check back in in a few hours and will move my vote (to where tbd) before 6pm est. Would like to hear Slandaar's thoughts before potentially closing the thread down. After 6pm I will be offline the rest of the day.