Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[ChannelDelibird]

Not going to have a lot of time again today but I'll be rereading the early game tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm here at work for the next few hours but if there are any bite-size questions that people want answered, I can do that. I can understand why there's talk of me being suspicious, I suppose, but I think me towning it up in this game is going to just something that's going to require a bit of patience.

PEDIT: Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with people just assuming that Tammy is going to be nightkilled?

[Tammy]

I look around at the teams and I think I might survive until day 4 actually.

[Tammy]

I like cdb's latest post. I've had done wine and I don't think that why though.

Cdb - you said that Patrick had looked at some but what about ces? Also did you use tokens to get town?

[ChannelDelibird]

Cdb - you said that Patrick had looked at some but what about ces? Also did you use tokens to get town?

CES, as I think I've mentioned previously, has read portions of this game but not the whole thing. I've not really left anything out in terms of what I've reported from him.

I didn't use any tokens on myself as I didn't have a strong enough preference on alignment for it to be worth taking tokens away from those who did (namely Fenchurch and Patrick, who both took two for town). That said, I found myself more relieved than I had expected to draw town.

[Shadoweh]

I believe in history repeating itself. I think this setup has the potential for a lot of dead bodies in any case.
Do I make you uncomfortable, CDB? :> I think Tammy is town and isn't getting lynched in the next 4 days. Should I be assuming the scumteam is going to let her live forever?

[fferyllt]

I want input from my team but I'nm thinking boon vezok.

[ChannelDelibird]

Do I make you uncomfortable, CDB? :>

A little bit. I think I've established over a few games with you that I pretty much have no idea how to read you, and the idea of a good player whom I can't read coming after me is somewhat troubling.

I think Tammy is town and isn't getting lynched in the next 4 days. Should I be assuming the scumteam is going to let her live forever?

I honestly don't know. I'm townreading Tammy too, but I'm wary of us putting too much assumption into things like her Zar/Empire read, which I am thinking about a lot. I think there is a lot of WIFOM there that could be created by either a Tammy death or lack thereof, and my first instinct was that people assuming an immediate Tammy death might look pretty bad in retrospect if Empire were to later flip scum, as it would imply that they already knew that she had done significant damage to the scumteam.

[Shadoweh]

I thought you were scumreading me as a whole. Did something change there?
Empire hasn't been lynched yet, so she hasn't done any damage yet. I think that's a pretty baseless worry.

[ChannelDelibird]

I thought you were scumreading me as a whole. Did something change there?

I still think we might be onto something with the post that Fenchurch found, but it is a scumread based on only one post so I'm not as convinced as I might be.

Empire hasn't been lynched yet, so she hasn't done any damage yet. I think that's a pretty baseless worry.

Sure, in real terms there's no damage done yet, but - at least in my experience - when I'm scum, my feelings are heightened. Things are much more likely to feel like triumphs or disasters. If Empire and I were on the scumteam, I'd have been pretty terrified when Tammy was getting people on board with a Zar death, and I'd still be worried about it. So I think that, were Empire scum, his team-mates might show signs of being more afraid of Tammy than might be justified by the gamestate.

[Marquis]

Tammy, Sotty's not actually scumreading you; I just made that up and now I feel bad because you're getting so worked up over these scumreads! :( I hope we still have the chance to try and be the bestest friends forever after this!

[vezokpiraka]

Can we get over with the booning and get to lynching?

[Marquis]

Marquis has literally done nothing but fluff post. I would rather boon my pet rock then him.

Ummm, excuse you!

I have made acres and acres of game-relevant posts! Maybe you should read them instead of being a fish about it!

[Marquis]

Re: boon, I may or may not actually want this for role-related reasons!

I do feel like I'm the most obvtown player here though anyway and would not be okay with just blindly handing it to Tammy out of some easy tradition/precedence townreads!

[Marquis]

I would actually be okay with booning certain groupthink scumreads or lurkers though in order to lessen the cost of nightkills because more often than not they're town!

[Espeonage]

Is '

positive effect

' worth giving boon to, if not I'm happy to not get this or any boons of this type.

[vezokpiraka]

I would actually be okay with booning certain groupthink scumreads or lurkers though in order to lessen the cost of nightkills because more often than not they're town!

The only thing we need to do right now is not to give the boon to scum.

A town player knowing the sign of another player is good to potentially not very useful.
A scum player knowing the sign of another player is very very bad.

[T S O]

Eagerness aside - I would specifically like Marquis -not- to be Booned. The list of things Marquis has done in this game so far basically boils down to a) change his playstyle to seem more irritating b) flop around a bit in regards to things like meta and c) jack shit. Sorry, Marquis, it is how it is.

I also don't feel comfortable giving it to someone like DeasVail because, although they're a townread, it's a townread along the lines of "looks town, could be getting me here if he's scum either."

This may seem like a shameless plug, but it's not. I don't mind giving the Boon to someone who's not me, but I have to feel comfortable with that person, and neither of the above fit that description.

[T S O]

I think Cheetory does, though.

[DeasVail]

I'm going to try something new for me because I always enjoy reading posts of this style and this is Team Mafia so why not? It might be the only time I ever do this and knowing me I may very well give up after less than half the playerlist! I do have a lot of time though and nothing better that I'm going to be doing with it, so here we go! Also, Ceph is amazing and has posted some thoughts on this game, so those will be influencing this post as well.

Spoiler: Don't Expect Much

TOWN (Strongest -> Weakest)

Tammy

: My read on Tammy's admittedly pretty lazy, and it's a bit worrying even to me that I have her as my top townread when I have stated my method of reading Tammy, but I considered not putting Tammy here and it felt wrong somehow, so here she is. To those that are doubting Tammy, I can't really offer any authority in reading her (I have never played against Tammy-scum), nor do I expect what I say here to be convincing to anyone. What I will say, however, is that the Tammy here feels to me like the real Tammy. Her reactions can seem over-the-top at times, but I really don't think this is abnormal for her (no offence intended whatsoever). It's certainly possible that her reaction to Empire's team is manufactured in order to emulate her town self, and this sort of thing is my own go-to in a pinch as scum, but why then does she choose to cool off somewhat when it comes to Empire, when there are still people talking of baning and lynching him? And it's not like he's really been

that

town so far (sorry Empire). What kind of scum wouldn't want to bane/lynch town-Empire? And I don't really think that Tammy-Empire is a scum pair (oh dear I hope not). Other things include her approach to reading me here, which I don't really know how to describe beyond it being real? Things like her saying that she's not sure who's the manipulative one out of me and Bulbazak feel really genuine, because I feel like with the number of people townreading me scum would just get on my good side since I'm apparently so emotional and ride the popular Bulbazak scumread. Ceph also thinks that Tammy is town and while the above probably doesn't explain why

I

read Tammy as town very well, it's probably what I would say if I was asked to try convincing someone.

Marquis

: I'm not actually aware of anyone not thinking Marquis is town so I don't know how much I'll say here (edit: Shadoweh apparently! :/ ), but as I have already mentioned, I thought the way he started this game off would have been excessively risky as scum and since he can be townread as town (see Quil's smalltown) I feel he would have chosen to emulate that instead. It also matches with my own expectations of Marquis as a player. I like his forwardness in booning himself and it reminds me of when he was very open about not wanting to be investigated in Smalltown. Both situations attract unnecessary attention for scum, nor do they actually improve your chances of avoiding investigation/being booned imo, especially with the boon being something I'm pretty sure scum would want here. I thought his reaction to Tammy's suspicion was very natural and his read on me makes a lot of sense.

TSO

: Similar to Marquis, I like the way he's going about wanting a boon. If anything, I find this aspect of his play more town than I find Marquis'. I can feel his desire for a boon, and he's not trying very hard to contain it as I feel scum would, but he is accepting of the likelihood that it will end up going to someone else, and that overall comes across as a townie attitude to me. There are additional small things such as his suspicion of Bulbazak in 780, and 1059, which is along the lines of what I was planning to say if the boon was something more suited to my role. I have the slight concern in that Ceph told me that TSO is usually kind of angry and I'm not getting that impression at all here. Ceph hasn't commented on TSO lately though, so I guess I'll ask him what he thinks eventually if he's not too busy with our other games, but unless it's of games that I've actually played in, I tend to not pay much attention to meta.

Vezok

: This read is actually only so high because of what Gamma said in 1030, which was something I hadn't really thought about before (specifically the part about Vezok defending Empire in a way that wouldn't have been expected to earn him townreads). He differs from stronger townreads in that there's nothing about him that makes me really uncomfortable if I picture him being scum, but my guess would obviously be town at the moment.

--- Line of Boonability ---

Espeonage

: Espe is interesting in that there are some things that actively concern me (him reading a boon self-vote as scummy is the main thing), but overall I think his play is way too messy to be from scum. He's this low for a reason though, so don't consider my confidence in this incredibly high, but hey, I think he's town and so does Ceph. Things that I think indicate town are his talk of wanting to be baned, his weird VT claim, and his desire to get involved with the thread and reading people despite obviously not being clued in on what's actually been going on. My caution stems from the possibility that this stuff is faked, but why even fake it as scum? I can relate to some of his play and I can't relate to other parts, but in my experience if something doesn't make sense to me from either town or scum it's usually from town, and that's part of the reasoning behind my read here.

Gammagooey

: Weird unexpected townread for me, but I like his vote to boon vezok before even knowing what the boon was as I feel scum would be more calculating as to who they support a boon of and probably base it on the boon itself. I've also realised that I actually like what others are scumreading him for. I can very much relate to his lack of real reads (I'm only making this post because I'm super tryharding and it's made me realise just how crap my reads are) and I think his lack of making up reads just for the sake of looking good is a town thing! He knew who he wanted to bane and he knows who he wants to boon. What more does town really need to do at this stage? Don't get me wrong, it's still a pretty weak townread because he could probably fairly easily still be scum, but I feel like putting him here so here he goes.

ChannelDelibird

: This is higher than I expected to be putting him, but it's largely a Ceph sheep, who townreads CDB based on his catch-up posts (and possibly other stuff, I'm not sure). I don't have enough of a problem with CDB that I'm opposed to putting him here, but I don't share Ceph's enthusiasm.

EVERYONE ELSE (Probably in some vague order, but it's difficult!)

Titus

: I like Titus a lot but always find her stances and arguments a little strange in games, regardless of her alignment. I actually had an early townread on her for the same reason as what I think Nacho did. My impression of Titus is that while her play is often a bit different from the norm, she tends to be more bull-headedly different as scum, while more open to compromising etc. as town, and I'm definitely getting the latter vibe here. I still probably need to check to make sure I'm not completely making things up here though, but I'm probably just going to get more confused if I do. Not in the town section though because I have no confidence in this read whatsoever.

Empire

: I want to move this read one way or the other soon, but it's still a mess of differing opinions, between me, Ceph and the rest of this game. I didn't lean either way on Zar's posts, but Ceph, Gestalt and Tammy obviously thought they were scummy. I was super skeptical about the player switch but Ceph thought it was pretty town. And while I think Empire's pretty decent so far Ceph was expecting more town, so I don't really know what to think here right now, but my guess right now is town.

Shadoweh

: My concern here stems from the fact that I usually find her really town and I'm not feeling it here. I liked her concern with making the Zar-team vulnerable early as it matched my thoughts (whereas I wouldn't be surprised if scum would pretend to be ok with baning Zar so they could kill the slot if it wasn't lynched), but this is obviously discounted if the slot is scum. I think I asked a question about the comment about me in 576, which I found slightly weird, because while it does match the kind of interactions we have out-of-game, I've been scum against her at least a couple of times. Maybe I'll townread her for 1078 though!

Cheetory6

: Another read where my guess is town, but there's nothing about him that I feel would be unlikely coming from scum. I agree with all of Empire's points to some degree, but they're all vaguely town things to me, nothing that makes me go "Wow! This guy must be town!" Ceph says he's not disliking Cheetory as much now, but I can't bring myself to say I have good reason to townread him.

GuyInFreezer

: Lots of posts but I don't really pick up much from them and Ceph hasn't commented on them so I assume he doesn't either. Ceph thought one of his posts was scummy and I thought one of his posts was possibly slightly town, so I'm going to remain undecided here. My feeling is town but I have nothing to back it up.

Untrod Tripod

: I probably have a weak townlean on him now. I remember feeling better about him as I was reading through. I'll probably have another look through later but I'm tired of mafia now and this is good enough.

ActionDan

: I've played with ActionDan before but I don't remember much about what he's like. I sort of liked his side of the interaction with UT, but 'sort of like' is what my read is limited to.

Aronis

: Vaguely town, but I don't have anything more than that.

Mastin2

: I'm really waiting for this read, but one thing I don't like is how coy she often is considering her inconsistent activity. I feel like when you know you're not necessarily going to be around for important events, it doesn't make much sense to talk about how you have reasons for things, or thoughts, but then not say them.

EVERYONE ELSE (WITH SCUM!)

Bulbazak

: I've had another look through everything, but I still think he's scum, same reasoning as always. I don't mind if we don't lynch him Major Day One, just please whatever you do don't boon him (not that I actually think this will happen, but still...).

TellTaleHeart

: I can not explain why but my heart says she's scum. It might be 731, but really I don't know and I don't expect anyone to listen to me (there's no way I would listen to me), but there's something about her that made me think, "this slot is scum", while reading her posts.

----

If my reads don't make sense to you don't worry because they don't make much sense to me either. I've been really lazy about the ones in the middle and I'll try to sort them out eventually.

Empire, my admiration for you guys has increased enormously now. My post took less than a 1/4 the effort of the ones you and people like you make and I have already sworn to myself that I'm never attempting anything like this ever again (well maybe not as final as that, but close).

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh, hey, speaking of my catch-up, GiF never got back to me about this. I think he should.

I won't pretend to have read more than my own entry in that list and the two at the bottom for now, but I'll definitely be coming back to it later.

[DeasVail]

I don't know how essential reading it is honestly. I feel pretty ok about my Tammy, Marquis, TSO, Vezok and Espeonage reads, but everything else is either me pretending to have a read because I'm sick of putting people in the middle or me being lazy and not even pretending.

[DeasVail]

Oh except for Bulbazak but I don't actually say anything new there.

[DeasVail]

Oh realised I never did this.

Boon: Tammy

Marquis and TSO are also ok options, but Tammy is preferred due to being the least likely scum imo and also I don't think this boon is the kind of thing that's going to make a huge difference to night kill chances etc. I may not be as concerned about this as I should be though, so as I said Marquis, TSO and maybe vezok are also ok.

[T S O]

Cephrir's view of my meta is mildly skewed due to repeated experiences with me playing angry/aggressive. I'm much more mellow and charming now, though people say somewhat less effective for it.

[GuyInFreezer]

Oh, hey, speaking of my catch-up, GiF never got back to me about this. I think he should.

I won't pretend to have read more than my own entry in that list and the two at the bottom for now, but I'll definitely be coming back to it later.

I missed it.