13p Normal [TM2015]

[Thor665]

Not buying this - you feel caught.

[Save The Dragons]

Yep, Egg

There's totally no null reason why I wouldn't want to continue a conversation with Thor.

It couldn't be because I'm tired of being treated like I'm shit
It couldn't be because I'm tired of having my words twisted and misinterpreted
It couldn't be because I'm arguing with someone who sits down with a fucking dictionary and hashes out the literal meaning of each and every statement I make

Nope, it's totally because I'm scum

[Save The Dragons]

Not buying this - you feel caught.

I'm quoting this and will enjoy calling you a moron if I get mislynched

I will try to keep it at moron

[Save The Dragons]

I admit again my statement was a bit confrontational, I didn't mean to start a fight, but I was a little pissed off that I got a literal answer to the question; I honestly don't understand how you think I didn't want an explanation, or that Ceph didn't want further clarification unless your intent was to be obstructionist. I think that's ridiculous personally but I suppose that's not how I phrased my question.

I'm getting a little surprised that it seems everything I do is with scum motivation. That makes no sense.

I think Thor is scum. My team agrees.

I do not think he lifted a finger ever to try and figure out I was town or not, he just tacked on to me because he assumed I was a terrible player. If this is true, it does not feel good. Hell, if it's not true it does not feel good. I think that he never realized for a second that I was trying to read him and assumed everything I've ever said is an attack against him. He never saw me as trying to get more information from him.

I am unlikely to vote for anyone else at this point. Perhaps I will revise that when I have a cooler head but right now I'm too tired to deal with all this and I have so many better things to do so I'm going to do my best to shut up for a while.

[Thor665]

but I was a little pissed off that I got a literal answer to the question; I honestly don't understand how you think I didn't want an explanation, or that Ceph didn't want further clarification unless your intent was to be obstructionist.

If I was to ask you - is your team reading this game with you?
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'yes' but would instead be a listing of every thought they had offered?
Nah.

[Save The Dragons]

I asked about a specific person.

[Save The Dragons]

"Yes. Why?"
"Yes. A couple people are scum reading you."
"Yes. Our thread is filled with facepalms and head explosions."
"Yes. The general consensus last I checked was that we all hate this game."
(all true btw)

Your response:

"Yes."

No. It doesn't prove malicious intent, but I don't know how you can sit there and feel like I or Ceph would be satisfied with that answer. That is my problem with it. Keep in mind I am still trying to read your alignment.

I seem to be a little calmer.

[jasonT1981]

Some in my team are also of the impression Thor is scum, but have not expanded on things.

Thors arguments are flawed on many things, he seems to be all voice shouting for a lynch and being a cheerleader on the side championing wagons without doing too much himself.

He has a few times posted about forcing through the lynch or at least to the point of a claim. It does seem he wants to out roles partly.

I am not fully convinced scum would be as obvious as this though. I keep asking myself would scum be this vocal in pushing a mislynch this early knowing they will get attention tomorrow.

I am conflicted on this.

[Trojan Horse]

Not especially, but I'm sure I would've been lynched on the spot if I had done that...

You...weren't...just posting that to try and get a flash wagon going on BS, were you?

On Boon? This quote was referring to a post where STD listed his reads; it had nothing to do with Boon. And no, I wasn't trying to get a flash wagon going on anyone.

Note to all: starting tonight, I will be sleeping with a CPAP machine. Or rather, I will be TRYING to sleep with a CPAP machine; as for whether any sleep will actually come, that remains to be seen. So if you guys want to interrogate me, please do so today; I'll probably be pretty incoherent starting tomorrow.

[jasonT1981]

Not buying this - you feel caught.

totally disagree with this, it seems more like frustration with going around in circles with you, and not being able to get through to you no matter what is said.

I can relate.

[SleepyKrew]

jason
Tell me why this is an inaccurate portrayal of events:

Thor: "Your push on Boon is a policy lynch because you think his playstyle is terrible."
jason: "No."
Thor: "Here are a few examples of you calling Boon a liability (which is not something you'd call a scumread, but definitely something you'd say about someone you're trying to policy lynch)."
jason: "No. Look at the time he said he'd hammer his townreads. Who would want to hammer townreads? Only scum!"
SleepyKrew: "Wasn't he talking about a past game to defend his playstyle? That quote has nothing to do with hammering townreads in this game."
jason: "No. It was actually scummy because he mentioned the same meta as scum once."

[sthar8]

what exactly is wrong here? you were saying this angle is disingenuous and that he was coming to a "hasty conclusion". so, for what reason does town-Egg have to necessarily draw a different conclusion from it?

His conclusion was 'trying to appear to contribute without doing so.' But my opinions were not the big popular ones, my questions all had utility and none of them had already been answered. He made a bunch of unsupported assertions involving factual inaccuracies. His read of my posts was not accurate, but he still pushed the same conclusion. What reason does town have to push a conclusion despite the evidence being bad?

your angle essentially amounted to Egg being scum because he came out the gate pushing you immediately instead of giving you space. and yes, you're claiming it's because of your real-life situation

That is actually not true. My 'angle' amounts to egg being scum because his conclusions were not factually supported but he still wanted to push the point regardless. Town is trying to determine the alignment of others, and Egg did not care that his conclusion was based on no reasoning. That says to me that he felt the appearance of having a point was more important than actually having a point. Which is scum motivated.

You

and

Thor

are working the 'active lurking' line, which is patently untrue as well as irrelevant to the game. Why do you think egg's argument ('your questions are easy and the answers were obvious') has anything to do with my meatworld situation (I can only post about once a day)?

on top of that, this is all entirely discounting the fact that what you're saying isn't actually what Egg's case on you was. Egg's "evidence" was more than just you not explaining reads - it was based around the stances you took in general and the questions you asked.

This is disingenuous cherry picking. I've discussed the other points at length with egg, and to come in and say 'well this one topic of discussion is scummy because it doesn't encompass all the things you have talked about' is sketchy at best.

this at least makes some sense, but I don't find it compelling because it's not the type of thing I'd ever do as scum. the obvious counter to it is to not bother wasting all your time responding to said accusations and continue scum hunting normally without regard to their read on you.

I still think the tone of your post read more like scum posturing (although I can't exactly expect you to defend this, so meh). I'm also wondering why your instinct here was to call this a strongman - what do you think me-scum has to gain by strawman'ing you here when it'd be obvious the angle I'm pushing is wrong after you explained it? the more likely scenario is that I misinterpreted your post, regardless of alignment.

You will excuse me for not finding 'That makes sense from scum but I don't think Egg is doing it because I would never do it' to be a cogent argument. Same goes for 'you're scum for tone but I can't explain why.'

By making the point into an argument about my ego, you paint my whole argument as founded in a narcissistic mindset. You're trying to get me to argue that Egg should or should not view me as a threat, and being dismissive both makes me more likely to respond along those lines and makes all of my logic look unfounded if someone reads that point at face value. The scum advantage here is pretty clear.

If I'm wrong and you just misinterpreted the post, then you took my point of 'Egg doesn't want unengaged players like myself getting into the game' as 'Egg should be scared of me because I'm the best scumhunter!' That's quite a leap, and you add a lot of unwarranted assumptions to my words.

If

you are town, making that leap and then being dismissive of me for it was incredibly rude.

But, assuming that you made that leap, why would the size of my ego be relevant to my alignment?

also I'm wondering why you're pushing this:

It was super hedgy. I came out of it with no clear feeling how much you suspect jason. And outsourcing reads to people outside the thread seems valuable to scum.

as a reason for me being scum, while later saying you might outsource your Thor read.

if you have the time, I'd also appreciate gun-to-the-head reads on jason and Thor (yes, you said you might defer it to someone else, but I'm interested in what *you* specifically are thinking here).

Maybe I was unclear: I mean that I might sheep someone else on Thor because my read on him is conflicted. You, on the other hand, were specifically trying to sheep players who are not in this game and therefore less invested in it, without first attempting to read the players you were asking about.

gun to the head, the only problem I have with Jason is the movement of his wagon so I don't want to lynch him. His posting seems pretty good, and although I think his boon case is bad I have gotten caught up on similar things as town.

Thor is more difficult. His early interactions with STD read like he was trying to provoke him in order to make him easier to read, which is pretty town. But he's spending a good amount of time talking about things I think are irrelevant, and I can't recall the last thing I agreed with him about which makes me think scum. BUT the last two times I've played with him he screwed up his role catastrophically. Basically I have this weird dichotomous opinion of Thor as skilled and logical but sometimes terrible, and I can't tell if he's being good scum or awful town. At the moment, based on where the wagons are in thread, I'm leaning good scum.

sthar8: I'm not trying to be critical but is there something else to your pie read than her attacks on you?

Yeah. She's not really solid on anything (except me and thor now I guess?), and she's got a lot of unsupported assertions in her arguments. There's a lot of 'seems like scum' 'seems awkward' and 'didn't like' which is a nice way to call people scummy without actually explaining why they're helping scum. Same thing in her town reads, lot of 'it makes sense' 'i like it' and such, without explaining why. That's not really a big deal, but she's also looking for a lot of specifics from the people she questions, which is creating an information differential that bugs the hell out of me because it lets scum manipulate the flow of the game. I feel like she's attempting an argument by wordcount as well, because despite the length of her posts I dunno where she stands except on me and thor. I'd be happy to lynch her as of right now.

Yes...?
I would say a stated challenge like that is just as valid as a question in offering you the chance to present your counterargument.
Why do you disagree?

Because announcing 'I am likely to ignore anything you say' is not conducive to valuable discourse. Also the question 'tell me why you're not scum?' is of exceptionally limited utility. Also trying to get answers on specific positions by stating a poorly justified general conclusion is like trying to order soup by telling the waiter 'If you don't bring me food, I'm never coming here again'

It's the

least

valuable way to read someone, unless you have prior experience with their reactions.

Ffrey is reading the game and has offered some thoughts as well.

'The tooth fairy is reading the game and has offered some thoughts as well' is about as convincing as this statement btw.

ily

but I was a little pissed off that I got a literal answer to the question; I honestly don't understand how you think I didn't want an explanation, or that Ceph didn't want further clarification unless your intent was to be obstructionist.

If I was to ask you - is your team reading this game with you?
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'yes' but would instead be a listing of every thought they had offered?
Nah.

If I was to tell you - you're scum
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'no i'm not' but would instead be a listing of every thought you had offered?
...

Something is wrong here.

Egg is still scum. Pie is still scum. I might compromise on Thor.

[sthar8]

Also there's a double standard wrt Skrew that is making the hair on my toes stand up. I need to dig around later and figure it out.

[SleepyKrew]

?

[Trojan Horse]

Okay, I think my thoughts are a little more organized now.

I've been wondering if Delta provoked an argument with STD as a scummove, to distract the town. But if that's the case, and it wasn't just Delta being Delta, then why would he feel a need to do that? Jason was the only viable wagon at the time. So Delta's actions make no sense as a scummove, unless Jason is also scum.

Looks like my scumread on Delta depends on my scumread on Jason. So there's really no reason for me to vote for Delta right now.

UNVOTE: DeltaWave

Okay, I'm back in the Jason camp.

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.10:

jasonT1981 (3)-

Thor665, Fenchurch, SleepyKrew

Thor665 (2)-

pieguyn, Save The Dragons

Boonskiies (1)-

jasonT1981

Egg (1)-

sthar8

Save the Dragons (1)-

DeltaWave

Trojan Horse (1)-

Boonskiies

Not Voting (4)-

Egg, Malakittens, Micc, Trojan Horse

The deadline is at 6pm on Tuesday 14th April 2015. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Micc and DeltaWave have been prodded

Malakittens is v/la indefinitely

[Trojan Horse]

Only 3 on jason? Oh, Micc unvoted jason. Missed that.

VOTE: jason

[DeltaWave]

Got my prod I'll catch up tonight when I get home

[Thor665]

"No. It doesn't prove malicious intent, but I don't know how you can sit there and feel like I or Ceph would be satisfied with that answer. That is my problem with it. Keep in mind I am still trying to read your alignment.

Yet you were made happy simply by me stating that she town read your slot?
If that's all you wanted why not ask for it?
If it's not all you wanted - why not clarify what you want?
You are literally complaining to me about how your question was poorly presented.

Thors arguments are flawed on many things, he seems to be all voice shouting for a lynch and being a cheerleader on the side championing wagons without doing too much himself.

Yup, besides offering reads and pushing them I am assuredly not doing much.
Wait...

He has a few times posted about forcing through the lynch or at least to the point of a claim. It does seem he wants to out roles partly.

This is true - I do wish to out some roles.

I am not fully convinced scum would be as obvious as this though. I keep asking myself would scum be this vocal in pushing a mislynch this early knowing they will get attention tomorrow.

I am conflicted on this.

You have played with me as scum and town - what are you talking about?

Because announcing 'I am likely to ignore anything you say' is not conducive to valuable discourse. Also the question 'tell me why you're not scum?' is of exceptionally limited utility. Also trying to get answers on specific positions by stating a poorly justified general conclusion is like trying to order soup by telling the waiter 'If you don't bring me food, I'm never coming here again'

It's the

least

valuable way to read someone, unless you have prior experience with their reactions.

Yet, somehow, it did generate discourse with you - didn't it? Which is the opposite of what you claimed he was doing.
I am not really following this issue.

If I was to tell you - you're scum
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'no i'm not' but would instead be a listing of every thought you had offered?
...

Something is wrong here.

My answer would exactly be 'no' ...or 'that is a stupid question'.
Yours wouldn't?

Egg is still scum. Pie is still scum. I might compromise on Thor.

These reads are terrible.
Does your team sign off on them? (I will accept a yes/no answer...since, y'know, that's what I asked, crazy that)

[Save The Dragons]

Yet you were made happy simply by me stating that she town read your slot?

So your argument is "Ffery is townreading you while I'm not" gives me the same or barely any more info than "ffery is reading the game"

Seriously

If that's all you wanted why not ask for it?

I thought I had

If it's not all you wanted - why not clarify what you want?

I thought I had

Who are you townreading?

[sthar8]

Because announcing 'I am likely to ignore anything you say' is not conducive to valuable discourse. Also the question 'tell me why you're not scum?' is of exceptionally limited utility. Also trying to get answers on specific positions by stating a poorly justified general conclusion is like trying to order soup by telling the waiter 'If you don't bring me food, I'm never coming here again'

It's the

least

valuable way to read someone, unless you have prior experience with their reactions.

Yet, somehow, it did generate discourse with you - didn't it? Which is the opposite of what you claimed he was doing.
I am not really following this issue.

It is quite clear that you're not following. He did not, at any point, contribute anything to the discussion that looked like he was trying to figure out my alignment. So to claim that me talking was the intended result of his post is silly.

If I was to tell you - you're scum
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'no i'm not' but would instead be a listing of every thought you had offered?
...

Something is wrong here.

My answer would exactly be 'no' ...or 'that is a stupid question'.
Yours wouldn't?

Yes, it totally would. So why should Egg be able to assume that just calling me scum is going to get me to interact? You're being inconsistent.

Egg is still scum. Pie is still scum. I might compromise on Thor.

These reads are terrible.
Does your team sign off on them? (I will accept a yes/no answer...since, y'know, that's what I asked, crazy that)

Don't know, don't care. The heartless kids are focused on their games and ETL was asking for my thoughts on hers. Plus she's been sick and I've been moving, so not much in the PT.

[Thor665]

So your argument is "Ffery is townreading you while I'm not" gives me the same or barely any more info than "ffery is reading the game"

Seriously

I agree that looks silly - but you're the one claiming it as a stance. Not me.

Who are you townreading?

I have already openly indicated townreads on Micc, Egg, SK, and Mala. I don't really have any others to add that are really worth noting at this point. Eh, maybe with an arm twist Pie (against my thoughts, but most of my thread says that) and Fen (against my thread's thoughts, but I think that). Let's not call either of those particularly strong at this point.

Why?

It is quite clear that you're not following. He did not, at any point, contribute anything to the discussion that looked like he was trying to figure out my alignment. So to claim that me talking was the intended result of his post is silly.

Attacking someone to see how they react is *exactly* trying to figure out an alignment last I checked.
Do you not do this?

Yes, it totally would. So why should Egg be able to assume that just calling me scum is going to get me to interact? You're being inconsistent.

I don't think I am - because he didn't ask you that question nor couch it in those terms.
That said, since you agree with me about what a normal response would be - what's your take on STD?

Don't know, don't care. The heartless kids are focused on their games and ETL was asking for my thoughts on hers. Plus she's been sick and I've been moving, so not much in the PT.

I fully am aware of how useless ETL has been this last week or so.
Do you expect your heads to group scumhunt or not?

[DeltaWave]

Sorry for the unannounced VLA.

I'm disappointed that my STD case isn't getting much support. I'd still support a Boon wagon though.

I don't know what to make of the Jason vs. Thor fight. From the first time I saw the player list, I figured that Jason was going to be a lightning rod for drama and it's totally panning out that way. I don't really understand Jason's points against Thor or Thor's points against Jason. Jason being a beacon of drama and Thor breaking balls for no reason is a dangerous combination. Anyway the signal to noise ratio is terrible. This reminds me of a game I played back in 2011 or 2012 in which Jason was a beloved princess.

This whole thing is such a shitshow right now. If anyone can explain this fight to me then I'll be glad to hear it. I tend to scroll through the walls of text on this subject.

Now for people who asked me questions:

Deltawave i think your case on STD is bad. The over justification reasoning is you pushing him for a playstyle thing.

Alright but I still stand by it.

I think STD's read on you is reasonable - I could easily enough see someone thinking there was scum motivation in the way you were pushing him. .... I also don't think someone going from null to scum based on what they perceive as a bad push is alignment indicative ... I'm wondering which other reads besides you/Thor you think he's fabricating.

Truncated the quote to save space. I don't think that's STD's argument. He wasn't voting me for a bad push, he was voting me for not having contributed or whatever. As for your next question, I think all his reads were suspect but most especially SK. I don't see how he could have grouped SK in with the town at that point (it would be more reasonable to call him null.) In fact it was almost as if he sorted his read list by how controversial each person was.

Delta, who do you mean when you say "TJ"? Is that Trojan? Can you go into more detail on why STD is scum? You mention him a lot in your big post, but I don't actually see any specific points and you say you're just as willing to vote him as you are to vote Boon. I'd like to know why.

TJ = Trojan. I think I meant to type TH. Anyway I'm not sure how much more detail I can give about this. I thought my points were pretty specific, namely that I thought his reads were made-up and his response was not townish. What part of this is vague?

Deltawave

: At some point I thought at least one of {Deltawave, Thor} was scum which was perhaps somewhat biased. I'm not sure where I currently stand on DeltaWave. All the stuff about me is useless to me so I would love to hear more about things like:

Scumpool - Boon, STD, Pie

Why pie and is this still true

Who else do you think is scum

What your opinion on Jason is since you seem to have none

My read on Pie was mostly due to their push against Malakittens. My reads haven't changed much since then actually except that now I'd put SK as neutral leaning town rather than just neutral. I've got an odd feeling about Micc but I can't really explain it.

I don't have much of an opinion on Jason right now because quite honestly I've been skipping over the Jason/Thor drama.

Anyway I think that sums it up.

[Micc]

prod received.

i meant to get involved in this yesterday but it never happened. if i cant find time to get in here tomorrow ill consider replacing out.

[sthar8]

Attacking someone to see how they react is *exactly* trying to figure out an alignment last I checked.
Do you not do this?

He had decided his position before I reacted. That's not the same thing.

I don't think I am - because he didn't ask you that question nor couch it in those terms.
That said, since you agree with me about what a normal response would be - what's your take on STD?

He couched it in factual inaccuracy and nonspecific vagary. It's functionally the same thing.

As far as STD, I think he's genuinely frustrated and it's clearly coloring his responses. He looks otherwise town. You are being somewhat obtuse, but I dunno if you're just doing it because you enjoy it or because you're scum.

I fully am aware of how useless ETL has been this last week or so.
Do you expect your heads to group scumhunt or not?

Maybe. Consensus is that I'm the least likely to need an outside opinion, I think. Once I'm caught up on everyone else's games and everyone's recovered from the plague I'm sure they'll take a look in here, but I don't anticipate a lot of disagreement.