8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[Metal Sonic]

i suddenly got very very good news and i am off to entertain that wonderful news-giver

byee!!!!!

[Zar]

Nacho

, I agree with you in regards to Kagami in #1129 (my thinking is she could be avoiding looking at a larger picture by focusing on GreyICE and her reads and votes don’t seem to flow naturally. With regards to your Sotty read, Regfan wants me to mention he doesn’t really find the way she went about defending Hoopla a scum-tell (I disagree, but I’m voicing his thoughts here… he says he’d expect Sotty to genuinely be scared to lynch her D1); what I do agree with him is that Kagami’s #341 and #349 pushing Sotty points away from them being partners, which therefore enforces the stronger scum read on Kagami. As far as the Eddie read goes, it’s a weaker read but the conviction for his pushes seems genuine even if the logic is flawed?

Eddie

; let Mollie know singer acknowledges her Nacho townread, but would like to hear more thoughts from the reasoning behind it to see if she can understand where it’s coming from.

[GreyICE]

It's a shame hoopla flipped town as otherwise we could of take the following lynch path: Nacho>ICE>Kagami.
Nacho flipping scum would make the town-bloc recieve a stronger foundation and many have voiced oppinions (or not) so it's a rather informative lynch (though I do doubt wether he's actually scum). Then ICE would also provide a lot of information, him flipping scum would confirm kagami as town (ugh).

The most informative lynches are GreyICE and Nacho (Two of my town reads :\), GreyICE reveals the most if mafia however if she flips town we gain little to nothing except an even more suspicious looking kagami.

We need a structured plan for if Nacho flips town, what information can we still scrape if ABR is wrong?

You're voting a town read? What is this shit.

[ZZZX]

Zar / Grey

Actuall Thoughts no nacho?

[ZZZX]

and if you try to fake some read I will lynch you after him.

[GreyICE]

MetalSonic: Hoopla lynch had to happen. Her own actions. I find it fucking hilarious that you are trying to make me out for scum for it. Yesterday you were whining I was trying to protect Hoopla. Maybe I was trying to get a read on her? The rest of your points are that apparently you can twist my words to try and make some sort of contradiction, and lots of posts of

slam

and that apparently I am "intimidating" other players.

If "ignoring the rest of your shitty arguments" is scummy, so be it. I'm town, and everything you're blathering on about was literally me trying to understand the game.

[GreyICE]

Zar / Grey

Actuall Thoughts no nacho?

Is this "on" Nacho?

Nacho has a strong belief in the strength of his own scumhunting. He states he used two tokens to be town this game. While I believe players might lie about how they used their tokens (aka "town" rather than "scum") it's my experience most lies in mafia are fairly close to the truth ("I'm the town jailkeeper" rather than "I'm the scum roleblocker"). Therefore I do believe Nacho used two tokens, and I do believe those two tokens were for town. Right there would be where I initially tagged him as strong town.

Is it just the tokens? No. Nacho is strongly scumhunting. He has repeatedly offered self-sacrifice for his reads getting lynched, something which is of no benefit to the scum (1:1 trading is enormously townsided in this setup). Reference ABR's own "school of scumhunting." Shall I quote it?

1) Is this post biased by an existing conflict or tunnel?
2) Are its assumptions based on known or verifiable quantities?
3) Does it make any sort of sense at all? Throw a wide net on this one. Anything???

Read this list: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6755979

This VCA is also very good: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6755634

In short, Nacho is making sense, he's making good posts, he's actively engaged with the town, and the self-sacrifice is high. It's the opposite of what I'd expect from scum, especially nacho-scum (who likes to fade into the background).

[EddieFenix]

Ok, why?
Titus likes giving reasons, you must have some you can share.

I already mentioned. She thinks that Nacho is playing professor mafia, trying very hard to get towncred rather than scumhunt. Titus has been adamant Nacho is scum for the pas week. She thinks you're town and I should convince you to vote Nacho, but I won't do that. I will let you make up your own mind, and I will do nothing to help you vote anyone else that isn't Nacho.

I'm not happy about joining a wagon by purely being asked to, I want to be sure it's the right one. Why is it so hard to relay titus' thoughts and reasoning?
You say you will not help me to vote anyone but Nacho yet you don't even do that, you just tell me he's scum. I can agree with the resitance now coming from those not voting, eddie just only commeneted on things to do with him and ignored all current happenings for instance as well.

Eddie, what do you think of Nacho and Kagami?

ABR, you're not going to get a lower score for keeping your reason to yourself. It's more pro-town to show everyone that someone is definetley scum by showing all why. I don't know Nacho's playstyle, hence I want people like you to explain why your small amount of reasoning is actually true.

I've been reading the current happenings. Unless you want a wall the size of China in response to EVERYTHING, not every little thing needs a response. Mollie said that if she were in this game, she'd town read him and see from there. It might be my paranoia kicking in, but there's something eating me about Nacho. Going to trust Mollie for now at least until she comes back with something a bit more conclusive. Kagami, for me, is town. Right now, my want for the day is to see GI swing.

VOTE: Nacho
If she flips town we should lynch Kagami. If she flips scum Kagami is town.
Going to vote with the town bloc, any other lone pushes won't go anywhere.

Gambler's Fallacy?

Half, it's true that GreyICE didn't responds to that part. But that part consisted of pre-flip associatives with hoopla and statements which weren't backed up. Kagami really doesn't have a point here.

What? How?

Eddie

; let Mollie know singer acknowledges her Nacho townread, but would like to hear more thoughts from the reasoning behind it to see if she can understand where it’s coming from.

I'll let Mollie know.... Cause singer isn't the only one who's curious.

[ZZZX]

Zar / Grey

Actuall Thoughts no nacho?

Is this "on" Nacho?

Nacho has a strong belief in the strength of his own scumhunting. He states he used two tokens to be town this game. While I believe players might lie about how they used their tokens (aka "town" rather than "scum") it's my experience most lies in mafia are fairly close to the truth ("I'm the town jailkeeper" rather than "I'm the scum roleblocker"). Therefore I do believe Nacho used two tokens, and I do believe those two tokens were for town. Right there would be where I initially tagged him as strong town.

Is it just the tokens? No. Nacho is strongly scumhunting. He has repeatedly offered self-sacrifice for his reads getting lynched, something which is of no benefit to the scum (1:1 trading is enormously townsided in this setup). Reference ABR's own "school of scumhunting." Shall I quote it?

1) Is this post biased by an existing conflict or tunnel?
2) Are its assumptions based on known or verifiable quantities?
3) Does it make any sort of sense at all? Throw a wide net on this one. Anything???

Read this list: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6755979

This VCA is also very good: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6755634

In short, Nacho is making sense, he's making good posts, he's actively engaged with the town, and the self-sacrifice is high. It's the opposite of what I'd expect from scum, especially nacho-scum (who likes to fade into the background).

I felt his scum hunting way too weak.

and there is no sacrifice because it ends up with nothing happening with "oh god i was wrong" kind of calling once its done and its gone.

sadly thats how it works out most of the time when scum do it.

I honestly felt his play was subpar. I need to re-read him...

[ZZZX]

Ok, why?
Titus likes giving reasons, you must have some you can share.

I already mentioned. She thinks that Nacho is playing professor mafia, trying very hard to get towncred rather than scumhunt. Titus has been adamant Nacho is scum for the pas week. She thinks you're town and I should convince you to vote Nacho, but I won't do that. I will let you make up your own mind, and I will do nothing to help you vote anyone else that isn't Nacho.

I'm not happy about joining a wagon by purely being asked to, I want to be sure it's the right one. Why is it so hard to relay titus' thoughts and reasoning?
You say you will not help me to vote anyone but Nacho yet you don't even do that, you just tell me he's scum. I can agree with the resitance now coming from those not voting, eddie just only commeneted on things to do with him and ignored all current happenings for instance as well.

Eddie, what do you think of Nacho and Kagami?

ABR, you're not going to get a lower score for keeping your reason to yourself. It's more pro-town to show everyone that someone is definetley scum by showing all why. I don't know Nacho's playstyle, hence I want people like you to explain why your small amount of reasoning is actually true.

I've been reading the current happenings. Unless you want a wall the size of China in response to EVERYTHING, not every little thing needs a response. Mollie said that if she were in this game, she'd town read him and see from there. It might be my paranoia kicking in, but there's something eating me about Nacho. Going to trust Mollie for now at least until she comes back with something a bit more conclusive. Kagami, for me, is town. Right now, my want for the day is to see GI swing.

VOTE: Nacho
If she flips town we should lynch Kagami. If she flips scum Kagami is town.
Going to vote with the town bloc, any other lone pushes won't go anywhere.

Gambler's Fallacy?

Half, it's true that GreyICE didn't responds to that part. But that part consisted of pre-flip associatives with hoopla and statements which weren't backed up. Kagami really doesn't have a point here.

What? How?

Eddie

; let Mollie know singer acknowledges her Nacho townread, but would like to hear more thoughts from the reasoning behind it to see if she can understand where it’s coming from.

I'll let Mollie know.... Cause singer isn't the only one who's curious.

anyone but GI you find scum?

[GreyICE]

I felt his scum hunting way too weak.

and there is no sacrifice because it ends up with nothing happening with "oh god i was wrong" kind of calling once its done and its gone.

sadly thats how it works out most of the time when scum do it.

I honestly felt his play was subpar. I need to re-read him...

Really? With ABR here? It just gets "let go"?

[Albert B. Rampage]

We are lynching Nacho not tomorrow, not day 4, not in next year's team mafia; today. We are lynching him today. This is fact. The sooner you accept it, the sooner we can all get along.

[ZZZX]

I felt his scum hunting way too weak.

and there is no sacrifice because it ends up with nothing happening with "oh god i was wrong" kind of calling once its done and its gone.

sadly thats how it works out most of the time when scum do it.

I honestly felt his play was subpar. I need to re-read him...

Really? With ABR here? It just gets "let go"?

what do you mean?

[Nachomamma8]

sorry i got really drunk this weekend and spent all of my mafia time in a compromised state
i'm gonna catch up on things right quick, try to explain two more reads or so, and then finish a little every day

[Sotty7]

protecting hard/hard pushing hoopla doesnt deserve any kind of town cred. might be even somewhat scumish . most town block members voted him for clear reasons and tried to get the true allignment of him. however he ended up just refusing everything and doing most random thing he can.

What I mean is that it seemed like a lot more people settled for the Hoopla lynch like GreyICE for example. The only person that strong scum read her was ABR and maybe Metal. You disagree with that assessment?

@Sotty, scum reading Metal.... Are you high???

Nah, straight edge baby. Why should I be reading him town? He's inconstant, trying to have everything all at once. You have strong Metal meta?

Metal are GreyICE and myself scum together?

Ok, I can understand those MetalSonic. However I fail to see the scum motiavtion behind why he went for sotty and not hoopla, especially when hoopla flipped town. That ICE is bussing Sotty seems a little far-fetched at the moment as the way Sotty responded really doesn't seem faked. ABR suspects me of being scum yet I town read him, doesn't make us partners.

I like this guy a lot.

[Nachomamma8]

Sotty I gave you metal sonic meta to look at :/

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60046

Here it is! I understand glancing through another game is -work- and not necessarily something you have a whole lot of time for, but I think it will help you understand where I'm coming from with my read on him, especially if you don't have experience with him before this game.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The only person that strong scum read her was ABR and maybe Metal.

I also said she had a 33% chance of flipping scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't like several minor points on GI initially, one of the biggest points being the town-blocking business.

So, I understand this. I acknowledge that if I were scum in Grey's position, I would form a town block with my most competent scumbud and the first two townies to be drawn to the light. My problem with this point against Grey is I actually don't think this is how he's played. He's ended up pushing a lot of people, and the townblock he's formed (namely the townblock around ABR) is a strong one that no one's actually criticized: it could be because his scumbuddy is playing fucking amazingly, but I seriously seriously doubt that's the case. I also don't understand why you haven't been more aggressive with pushing proper theory if you've quickly identified that it's optimal and strongly feel that it's optimal.

In addition to wqierts, ABR, nacho, ZZZX for town, there was my wagon, which seemed like a stealthy way of adding Hoopla to the list. A few posts later he explicitly adds hoopla, for evidently a completely different reason.

Why is this scummy with Hoopla-town in mind?
I also sympathize with Grey's reaction to Hoopla in general: I actually really liked how her opening to the game felt, even though it was something she rationally could effortlessly fake as scum and she really didn't have any other content to add credence to that feeling.

I asked him about the hoopla thing later. He gives a rubbish response, when there were multiple reasonable responses he could have given, and ultimately ditched the townread before the day is over. So yeah, I found that pretty damning.

You're referring to #303, correct? I think it's perfectly reasonable for GI to townread Hoopla for opening the game in a way that's very disadvantageous for scum-her. Scum will not win in this setup playing support. One of the stronger members of the scumteam playing support is a really really really terrible idea.

Seraphim is the one who intercepts, asks for why, and I oblige. This is where scum-seraphim votes kagami; it's a perfect alternative wagon for divided votes that ensures town lynches stay in the lead. I don't think I had votes at the time, but had plenty of negative sentiment, which is the juciest jump of all. He doesn't, and I see no scum motivation to change direction on GI regardless of grey's alignment. (I didn't really think of it in such depth initially, but it's worth being out there)

This is referring to... #393, right? Seraphim backing out of you/GreyICE allowed him to make probably the second easiest vote possible. It allowed him not to have to interact with GreyICE. It allowed him to avoid antagonizing GreyICE. Yes, he didn't jump on you, but there is distinct scum motivation in staying out of the way.

The tl;dr is that yes, it's accurate to say that my greyICE read didn't really evolve, but was there something that you think should have changed it? I call him out for his rubbish, and he mostly ignores it or says that it's terrible. I don't understand why I should be expected to change my mind here. Sure, I can think of semi-viable scumsets that doesn't include GI, but those all seem very improbable.

I'm not trying to change your mind.
If you are town, GreyICE is probably scum.

What I'm trying to do is understand your read better and picture a world where you aren't scum because it is absolutely 100% crucial I get that shit cemented before I go down and I don't want to steer town completely wrong when I die because that would be fucking garbage. In order for me to believe that, the first thing I need to believe is GreyICE-scum. I don't think he's playing in the way he needs to if he's scum. I do think his play this game is good regardless of alignment, but he hasn't approached it the way he has if he's scum. That's why I don't really agree with your theory point on him.

I don't see town in Sotty, Seraphim, Eddie. Sotty is still not reaching out to me in this environment when I'm drowning and reaching out to her, and I hate that shit. You're not a player who needs sounding boards to work off of. I understand that. I need sounding boards and Sotty does to, I'm reaching out to her, that's horseshit.

I don't see scum in ZZZX, ABR, wgeurts, Metal Sonic. If ABR is scum this game, he will be playing a bananas scumgame and overcoming a demoralizing past of scumgames of being edged out by townblocks, and he is playing one of the best if not THE best scumgame I've ever seen. Metal Sonic, wgeurts, ZZZX: I can see their heart, I can see their passion. I understand their play. I love their play. And I trust myself enough that those reads are correct: if you want to shake that out, you need something strong and I haven't seen something strong on them from anyone.

Your point about being inconsistent is weak to me because it's a shitty scumtell on GreyICE as a player. GreyICE pushes people to see how they react. Are the pushes bullshit? Fuck yeah they are. Do they have obvious town motivation behind them? Yep. I attacked his pressure early game because I didn't think he had any fantastic points and I didn't want Sotty to get overwhelmed. Then GreyICE put in work, Sotty didn't. I feel you're ignoring that and instead picking him apart with points that are factually true but don't actually get into motivation, and you're a good enough player to understand that motivation is king

Your point about Grey's treatment of Hoopla is your best one, but it doesn't resonate with me. You criticize the approach for being inconsistent and weird: I think it's natural to have a weird reaction to Hoopla because her play was strange. She's a very strong player. She did add to a town win when she played. She did make the game state better with the few posts she made. But she didn't put in work and she didn't explain why she wasn't putting work and she only put a tiny tiny bit of heart in the game when other people are putting a metric fuck ton of heart in the game, and that's frustrating as hell. It's not difficult at all for me to see town motivation in Grey's treatment of Hoopla when I've had the same exact reaction, step by step.

I promise you, if you are town, that I'm making every effort to see you as so, but it just doesn't add up.

[Nachomamma8]

wgeurts, I would be happy as shit if you unvoted.
I'm OK with being lynched, I need time to get shit done in this game. Llamarble died in his own game, and he's the best town player on the site. Not giving him the time he needs to do his thing is a really dumb mistake.

[Nachomamma8]

Not a fan of Nacho's VCA since we only have one confirmed alignment so far and it was the person wagoned. The rest is just his reasoning hiding behind some kind of theroy to give it more weight.

What gives the VCA any sort of weight is the reads that I'm reasonably confident about. You don't disagree with ABR, wgeurts, ZZZX reads: put those reads in the VCA and tell me what you think is happening.

I do very much like nacho's Seraphirm and Eddie paragraphs though. This is more of what I want to see makes me hesitant to jump on your wagon.

What's wrong with my Kagami read?
I am trying my best, for the record. I haven't been consistent before because ~busy~ and mobile is literally the worst combination I have ever experienced in my entire life.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Tell Llama to haul ass because you're about to be lynched. Deadline in 6 days amigo.

[Nachomamma8]

And I like the guy. He's one of my favorite players. Yesterday, I learned that he was a young black kid, and that adds to his charm. Unfortunately, he also drew scum here.

<3
you're the best abr
you'll do fine in leading town after i'm gone, just know i'm putting everything i got into this game so that the end result will be the best i can produce

[Nachomamma8]

No. My nacho doesn't come from mostly from the town read of Seraphim. It has to do more with the two-fold interaction between Seraphim and Nacho (from his side, the reason to town-read him feels lazy) and the way Nacho has been soft-handling my slot; I would have expected him to reach out to engage Empire more (regarding that read in specific) without being called out and I feel like the read he’s given me is conveniently murky.

My townread of Seraphim was shitty, yeah. I kinda fall easy for needless aggression even though I shouldn't. He's still the scumread that, for me, has the weakest reasons for being scum because I'm so much more familiar with the other three players (not Eddie specifically, but newfound confidence that I'll talk about comes from mollie's interactions with me).

I don't think you see my perspective re: my interactions with your slot. You just replaced out of a game because you didn't want to play delivery boy. I'm a player who absolutely loves Empire, needs to interact with him all the time in order to form a good read there, but didn't get that chance. I wanted to give you space to get into the game and get some reads down before going all EMPIRE EMPIRE EMPIRE because I didn't want to be unfair to you as a player.

I think you're town now. Your perspective on the game makes a ton a ton of sense, town tokens help, and I loved singer's recent reachout to mollie over me (it made me feel special!). I don't think it was unreasonable to have a murky read on you when you really weren't doing anything: Empire's opening, while good, wasn't a "Empire is confirmed town beyond town" read for me and with him and Tammy I've learned it's really really important for me to get to that point before townreading and not worrying about them anymore. I think your read on me is fine, which means a lot: you're scumreading me for the weakest part of my play which is absolutely reasonable.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho, had to say your mother's a hamster from Espeonage.

ilu2bb