13p Normal [TM2015]

[sthar8]

I'm really fucking lost and I feel like the day is moving really fast. Does anybody wanna be a good samaritan and help me catch up?

I feel like I'm speaking German and Pie is speaking Swiss. Half the time her posts are spot on, and the other half I'm getting instructions on how to turn a lawnmower into a bong.


I gotta say that my primary deterrent on the Mala wagon is how it feels like everybody is talking about wanting to be on it except obvtown Boon. Couple that with not getting the case and my top scumread being on the wagon and I'm not really inclined to push it much.

Skrew is problematic, but I'm feeling inclined to give him more time.

AFAICT Egg is still a fantastic lynch. The only argument I've seen for him being town amounts to WIFOM.

[Nexus]

Votecount 2.4:

Malakittens (4)-

Save The Dragons, pieguyn, SleepyKrew, Egg

VysePresident (1)-

Trojan Horse

DeltaWave (3)-

Boonskiies, Malakittens, jasonT1981,

Egg (1)-

sthar8

Not voting (2)-

VysePresident, DeltaWave

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is at 6pm on the 30th April 2015. (expired on 2015-04-30 13:00:00)

[Save The Dragons]

As far as mala:
My reason for reading mala is scum is a bit of PoE. I think that scum are most likely off of the Thor wagon for now. I will reassess later.

I'll ignore the WIFOM that is presented when you consider who the person scum killed's main target was

When pressured, her response was pretty much "this is why pie's read on me is bad." and "mastin needs to read me from D1, otherwise the read is bad." and "pie you were tunneling me D1" when it really doesn't look like pie was. She didn't attack the argument, she's attacking the credibility of the source. I'm waiting for a reason for why she's town, so far I got "look at my town meta in this game where I was the less public head of a hydra."

As far as how the day is going:
Honestly, I'm waiting for mala to respond to me a bit, and I, along with everyone else, is waiting for Delta and Vyse to post.

SK called himself obvtown and Boon claims to be possessed by a spirit that causes him to hammer. Boon is defending mala hardcore. People are suspicious of Mala/Delta/Egg/Boon. I dunno, there's probably a lot of subtle stuff.

As far as Egg:
I was town reading Egg D1. His catch up posts seemed to come from a perspective that was trying to figure out the game, I feel. I also am a little more invested in this read than "if he were scum he could have gone to no-lynch." his actions, while rushed and pressured, seemed to come from a town mindset.

I suppose he was reading Thor as town for most of the game though, and I've already admitted that I think hammering scumbuddy thor at the last second to make him look a little better (since he really could have just been stubborn). I don't actually see a strong case on Egg by you, can you clarify (or point me to) your case?

[Save The Dragons]

Also can you elaborate on your boon townread?

[sthar8]

Sure.

1. Do you remember the boon wagon d1? Without checking, who wanted to lynch boon yesterday? When did the wagons start?
2. This is going to sound harsher than I intend it to be, but the whole case on boon yesterday was 'he plays poorly as town and he can't explain why.' Which is... not alignment relevant. It reads like jason pushing a crapcase and scum letting him do that because it was good for them. See also: Thor's incredibly neutral stance on the boon wagon while actively pushing jason.
3. The case on him today is crap. He didn't interact with Thor? Sure, he also didn't interact with me, or fen.

[Save The Dragons]

I think egg started the wagon and delta went along with it.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but none of those tell me why you are townreading boon other than if egg is scum he tried a last minute boon lynch, which I'd be more than happy to talk about if egg turns out to be scum.

2 and 3 explain why you don't like boon suspicion by others but it doesn't make him obvtown.

Also I guess I kind of threw up a question in my big post so you might have missed it, but

I don't actually see a strong case on Egg by you, can you clarify (or point me to) your case?

[jasonT1981]

2. This is going to sound harsher than I intend it to be, but the whole case on boon yesterday was 'he plays poorly as town and he can't explain why.' Which is... not alignment relevant

No it wasn't. There was meta involved as well as other in game reasons. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6744250

You may not agree with them, and while I am no longer seeing Boon as top priority scum... there is a lot more there than just 'bad gameplay'

In fact, The whole 'bad gameplay' came from scumThor who was adiment it was all I had and only due to Boons bad gameplay and refused to even read anything relating to my case. When in fact it was a lot more, without even going into game play style reasons.

You may not agree with what I presented, but it was scum who peddled the 'bad gameplay' shit. When the case itself had very little to do with it, and more due to in game activities.

[jasonT1981]

Sorry, correction slightly

It was scum peddled the whole 'bad gameplay' shit in an attempt to further push, and further my lynch.

The wagon, or at least my vote and read had NOTHING to do with gameplay style, only spun as that by scum to further justify a lynch.

[SleepyKrew]

I am no longer seeing Boon as top priority scum

Why not?

[jasonT1981]

I am no longer seeing Boon as top priority scum

Why not?

reasons....

[pieguyn]

I gotta say that my primary deterrent on the Mala wagon is how it feels like everybody is talking about wanting to be on it except obvtown Boon. Couple that with not getting the case and my top scumread being on the wagon and I'm not really inclined to push it much.

the tl;dr of it is that her play this game day just isn't coming from town. none of it.

she's spent a large majority of this game day trying to make sure everyone in this game is aware that my read on her is untrustworthy bc I don't have enough experience reading her correctly. instead of an actual town approach, like, for example, actually addressing the reasons for her being scum, or actually *scumhunting*, we're seeing her do the "create as much noise as possible and hope no one realizes that's what I'm doing" routine.

but, OK. let's move onto her actual play. the first problem is that a majority of the arguments she's pushing are *objectively wrong*, and are done so in a way that it's explicitly scum motivated. the textbook example is that writing someone's push off as "tunneling" is one of the easiest ways for scum to discredit pushes made on them (hint: I'm not tunneling). the other one is that she keeps saying that mastin is scum reading her *solely* because she voted TH at the end of D1 when that is incorrect (mastin's scum read on her, similarly to mine, is based on her approach this game day and near the end of the last game day - which includes the vote on TH, but it's not about the fact she had voted TH as opposed to the way it was actually done, but regardless, that isn't a major point in my read on her). when I told her as much, her response was to........ completely ignore me and continue pushing that mastin's was scum reading her solely because she voted TH at the end of D1.

/golfclap

this is *another* way in which I don't see her approach today coming from town. instead of an actual town reaction, like actually engaging me on my/mastin's reasons for her being scum or trying to walk me through in-depth why I'm wrong about her, what we're seeing here is scum just repeating the same bullshit argument over and over despite it being blatantly wrong and hoping people accept it as truth without thinking critically.

when someone pushes shit that's objectively wrong, and SHOULD BE SO to anyone who is reading the game, and then blatantly ignores people who tell them they're objectively wrong, it's a pretty good sign said arguments are not coming from a town place. basically all of her posting falls into this. she's not critically analyzing the game because she doesn't have to fucking critically analyze the game: she knows what conclusions she wants to push and is making the evidence fit her conclusion, as opposed to critically thinking about what *actually* happened in the game.

there's also the problem of her Delta read, which is extremely hypocritical. she should know her reason for reading him as scum (pushing a 3rd wagon near the end of the day) isn't a good reason for reading him as scum, yet pushes it anyway. hmmmm...... I WONDER WHY?

AFAICT Egg is still a fantastic lynch. The only argument I've seen for him being town amounts to WIFOM.

it's not WIFOM, it's basic common sense

if you see a L-1 wagon on your scum partner, and there's less than a minute until deadline runs out and a no lynch occurs, what do you do? even discounting some of the nuances behind it - no lynch on D1 (or, specifically, the first no lynch in the game) is functionally the same for scum as a mislynch as it still takes them to 3 more mislynches required to win instead of 4, barring PR shenanigans, and it's also strategically better as town gains fuck all when it comes to useful information rather than a scum flip (which is pretty fucking good in terms of information) - you just don't fucking needlessly hammer your scum partner.

it's bad play if he was scum, and I'm not ruling it out entirely, but at this point I'm working under the assumption that Egg isn't a fucking idiot who'd shoot himself in the foot. if it becomes relevant again later, I'd consider it again.

[Boonskiies]

I think Pie only makes sense as scum if Egg is her partner..., so that helps my doubting Pie town read. Hmm....

[Save The Dragons]

And now it's time to play everyone's favorite quiz game

What exactly about Pie's play looks like bussing

Boon, you're up.

[Boonskiies]

I don't necessarily think he's busing. But ScumPie does a lot of theatrics; The Burning when he and I were scum buddies we did Scum Theatrics up the wazoo.

This being said, I think it's a possibility, but I'm not really convinced it's what's happening. Pie has a good chance at being town...but I just wanted to put out where I stand on that now.

[Malakittens]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I can finally flesh out my townread more on Boons because the game I was carefully watching just ended.

So the reason why I was against the push in Jason's D1 play and why my townread on Boons strengthened was due to this game. If you read his ISO he was attacked early D1 because of his play. Lurking, not contributing much etc and then later on used for mislynch bait. His reactions that game reminded me of how he reacted here.

[Malakittens]

I'm pretty sure I already posted my readslists. I'm pretty sure I already given my pool for scum. I'm not yet ready to touch my townreads, but if one of my scum reads do flip town I'll reevulate.

If you are so set in your ways, then what if I told you I'm set in my ways too? I posted my readslist too, I've given my pool for scum.

Though: I've also just demonstrated how I'm trying to verify some of my reads.

Std go look at my play in Survivor. You have just recently played with town-me there. I swear if someone says Something mollie being the main reason for most of the pushes I'll probably go batshit cray.

I can't really get a good assessment of your town game from your play since regardless of how much you guys talked together, regardless of how influential you were to the game, mollie was the public face of PirateCat for the most part and I talked directly to her a bunch, I don't think we ever specifically interacted. It doesn't mean she was more important or less important, but it's going to be pretty hard for me to figure out what was her and what was you from an outside point of view.

Even if I did, this is exactly what I'm not looking for. I'm not going to contemplate what happened in survivor to reassess my town read on you here.

If I'm going to consider you town, I don't want a meta reason to believe you are town, I want a reason from this game to believe you are town.

You are just disagreeing with my reads more than anything else. I have given my reasons for why I believe Delta is scum. I gave my reasons why I feel that Pie's read on me shouldn't be trusted completely because she's so confident that I'll flip scum that she's strongarming my lynch and not doubting the fact that she can be wrong in it.

It's true that the Egg last minute hammer could be a town thing to do, but I have personally seen scum hammer their buddy in 30 seconds left of a DL and then win at endgame because of the incred which is why I'm not clearing Egg because of that. Pie can say all she wants that it's not a good scum move to hammer, but it actually kinda is...? Especially if Egg has a stronger partner or his other scum partner is in a decent place with little to no suspicion on him.

You're right I don't think I actually engaged with you during Survivor. I might have in the beginning of the first tribe swap, but I haven't logged on PC to check that. Mollie was a very huge poster during the game, but she wasn't the sole head. I had some pushes during that game and some reasons for the way I wanted some of those flips to go down. I wanted TWIE flipped because I was sure that he was scum and if he flipped scum that Titus was a shoe-in, but I ended up being wrong about Titus.

I'm really horrible at this "give me a reason for being town". I

already

know I'm town. I already have a bias approach to my ISO in that aspect. Plus convincing people of things has never once been my strong suit. I usually can't argue myself out of a lynch which is why as scum I usually take an approach to avoid conflict if I can because if I ended up getting myself too deep I'm either relying on my scum-mates to get me out of the hole or I'm lynched.

[Malakittens]

Mala, I'm taking a good hard look at you right now. One thing that bothers me: why are you so insistent that pie get reads on you from her teammates? I understand you saying that pie is reading you wrong. (Of course you're going to say that, since pie has a scumread on you.) But why are you relying on her teammates to change her mind? Are you sure they are going to read you differently? In any case, pie's teammates aren't playing this game. If you want to change pie's mind, you should be trying to do that yourself.

Also:

You only had to basically sort me one game in all of the games we really ever played together, maybe two if you want to count the Tammy-game. So yes I'm discrediting your read on me because YOUR READ on me is wrong here. You have been wrong in the past.

So, you're saying that pie can't get an accurate read on you because she misread you in ONE game? First of all, that's a really small sample size. Second of all, that game has nothing to do with this one. If pie has good reasons for you being scum (and I think she does), you can't discredit them by pointing to another game where she got it wrong.

I want to say

FoS: Mala

, but I don't know if people still use the term "FoS" around here. I'm showing my age, aren't I?

Because her teammates have a better track record than her in reading me. The one who used to be bad in the past was Mara, but I think she's improved since then, but not too certain. There's at least two people out of four on her team who can read me. Notscience is one and the other is Mastin. So her as town I would think she would rely on all of her team mates reads on me instead of just one, but it turns out timely enough that Mastin decides to shine her read is after the whole D1 stuff goes down.

In the games we have played together she's mostly been scum against me or hasn't needed to sort me due to the fact of timing. Small sample size yes, but at the scope of the games we have played together she knows how I think in a mindset of a certain alignment. We have both played on the same team; we been masons, we been scum together.

I hope everyone realizes that there's like no fucking resistance to my wagon at all. If I put this FoS as a vote I'd be at L-1, with Jason, Vyse & Delta not giving a stance on how they feel. The only people really opposing my lynch right now is Boons and to an extent Sthar. So either there's major fucking bussing going on right now or this is just a bullshit fucking wagon that's on town.

The fact that no one is seeing this other than Boon/Sthar and not taking it into consideration is blowin' my fucking mind. In fact this feels exactly like how my lynch ended up in my last Bork game with Tammy. Tammy and I went head to head and I ended up being lynched when I had the majority of the fucking scum team pegged besides maybe one player.

[Malakittens]

Pie my major problem with you at the moment is im dammned if I do or dammned if I don't. I'm defending myself so i must be trying to survive which makes me more like scum! If I decided to roll up and die you would still think I'm scum. It's freaking dumb.

............

i literally just said i don't think you're scum for trying to survive

you are pretty much implying it. You're dismissing any fucking townreads on me because they don't reflect your views.

.......

that's a really bad reason for reading her as town. GIF in particular should know this because of how Mala essentially rolled over and died in TH upick 3 where she was town and not in a position to do anything bc her RL went to shit, which is essentially the same scenario we have here. I would think she'd put *more* effort into defending herself as scum here bc she'd care more about her survival, not less.

I'm not saying her effort here is necessarily a scum tell, but it's a really shit reason to town read her.

[Malakittens]

I'm really fucking lost and I feel like the day is moving really fast. Does anybody wanna be a good samaritan and help me catch up?

I feel like I'm speaking German and Pie is speaking Swiss. Half the time her posts are spot on, and the other half I'm getting instructions on how to turn a lawnmower into a bong.


I gotta say that my primary deterrent on the Mala wagon is how it feels like everybody is talking about wanting to be on it except obvtown Boon. Couple that with not getting the case and my top scumread being on the wagon and I'm not really inclined to push it much.

Skrew is problematic, but I'm feeling inclined to give him more time.

AFAICT Egg is still a fantastic lynch. The only argument I've seen for him being town amounts to WIFOM.

I have to say I agree with you on my wagon view about how there's no resistance to it. Although right now we have three people's views regarding it unaccounted for: Jason, DW and Vyse.

I don't get why Skrew is problematic. Can you explain that for me? Also this is probably the third person so far this game that you said you would be inclined to give more time. I feel like you're trying to dance step your way away from certain things. I have to say I'm waiting for Vsye to post, but SK is different. He has been in the game so far, he hasn't had to be replaced, or prodded or been VLA for most of the game. Why are you saying he's problematic now? What's the reason warranted for more time?

[Malakittens]

there's also the problem of her Delta read, which is extremely hypocritical. she should know her reason for reading him as scum (pushing a 3rd wagon near the end of the day) isn't a good reason for reading him as scum, yet pushes it anyway. hmmmm...... I WONDER WHY?

expect I alreayd fucking explained my fucking delta scum read.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE HE WAS EXPLORING HIS OPTION FOR ANOTHER LYNCH.

IT'S THE TIMING AND THE WAY HE WENT ABOUT IT.

he pushed a fucking person who was V/LA and couldn't claim if the flashlynch/flashwagon was successful. I don't see the reason why you would derail another wagon just to push something else who couldn't be around for deadline, who couldn't claim, who couldn't defend themselves, who couldn't give their last reads. it felt like an unnecessary last minute push that was derailing yet again another lynch.

I mean if DW flips scum; I'd probably go after TH for connection with this read because it makes sense in my head. For trying to derail a lynch on someone who I undoubtedly know is likely town.

[DeltaWave]

It's tough to do VCA with only two flips, so I was mostly concentrating on how the wagons formed. Jason was basically the biggest wagon until VC 1.12, when Thor became a contender due to STD and sthar. Jason's wagon almost totally dissolved around VC 1.15, probably due to the claim, making it Thor vs. Trojan until the end of the day.

Boon basically camped his vote on Trojan all day with only a couple exceptions. Interestingly, he doesn't seem to mention Trojan very often. At varying points he says I'm his scumread but nevertheless sticks on the TH wagon. I don't see a town reason to do this. It sounds more like scum trying to "keep their head down" with regards to a wagon. Avoid the major Thor/Jason fight by sidelining it.

Someone asked why I'm not voting right now. Mainly because I'm not sure on who I want to vote for. I still can't figure out Malakitten's reasoning here. It seems almost "too obvious" that Malakittens is in self-preservation mode as my wagon is basically the only major serious one today. (VP's seems mostly due to pressure, not due to scumaccusations.)

P-Edit: Let's say you get your lynch Mala, what will you do when I flip town?

[Malakittens]

Reevalute the way the wagons were and look at people's stances on how the Jason v Thor v TH played out.

[DeltaWave]

Tell me specifically what would change about your thinking if I flipped town. You already told us what would happen if I flip scum.

[pieguyn]

I gave my reasons why I feel that Pie's read on me shouldn't be trusted completely because she's so confident that I'll flip scum that she's strongarming my lynch and not doubting the fact that she can be wrong in it.

except I told you that I was analyzing your posts objectively and just not seeing how they could make sense from a town POV - and that I'd be open to discussion if you tried to actually TELL me why I was wrong or what I was missing here.

STOP BS'ING THE ARGUMENT YOU WANT TO PUSH HOPING NO ONE ACTUALLY GOES BACK AND READS IT

[Malakittens]

I'd probably reevaluate a shitton of my reads. There's been at least three or four games where I strongly townread scum and strongly scumread town.

I know at least these reads would either change/stay the same:

My TH read wouldn't flip to scum if you flipped town. TH would probably be high up on the town list close to almost confirm-town status.

I think my STD read would stay town because Iec had some strong D1 town-STD vibes.

I'd reevaluate my Boon read only because my paranoia would take place by then. I have strong townread players based on meta so I'd probably remove my main based meta read from Boon.

Egg would maybe be considered town.